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Nerfing Caldari?

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Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#21 - 2012-01-17 20:28:17 UTC
And here drakes were laughed at for years, nothing has changed bonus-wise, and now they're overpowered? Lol
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-01-17 20:29:55 UTC
Super Chair wrote:
And here drakes were laughed at for years, nothing has changed bonus-wise, and now they're overpowered? Lol


Are you joking? Drakes are the most OP things to hit PVP since minmatar...

Dodixie > Hek
Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-01-17 20:34:09 UTC
Balancing based on PvP is bad for ANY game. Well, unless it's an FPS and has no other game play.
Alara IonStorm
#24 - 2012-01-17 20:36:41 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
And here drakes were laughed at for years, nothing has changed bonus-wise, and now they're overpowered? Lol


Are you joking? Drakes are the most OP things to hit PVP since minmatar...

He is not saying they were bad but were considered bad.

Until the fall of Armor Spider Tanking and the rise of Armor HAC's + Armor Logi. Which led to Shield Battlecruisers and Shield Logi. Which led to Battleships + Logi.

Which led to wide spread realization of the strength of the Drake in all levels of Warfare from Brawl, to Nano, to Gang to Blob.

Nothing changed just people perceptions.
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-01-17 20:36:48 UTC
Sperg thread is a go.

I haven't read it yet, but if what the op says is true and not taken out of context, I do wonder what Caldari skilled pilots are going to fly in PvP in between a merlin and a tengu.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-01-17 20:38:43 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
Sperg thread is a go.

I haven't read it yet, but if what the op says is true and not taken out of context, I do wonder what Caldari skilled pilots are going to fly in PvP in between a merlin and a tengu.


Sorry, do caldari pilots have any other ships?

Dodixie > Hek
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#27 - 2012-01-17 20:39:23 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
And here drakes were laughed at for years, nothing has changed bonus-wise, and now they're overpowered? Lol


Are you joking? Drakes are the most OP things to hit PVP since minmatar...



So an entire race being "OP" isnt a problem, but another race that isn't minmatar having an "OP ship" and this is suddenly intolerable? LolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLol


There are counters to drakes: hellcats, alpha BS/nados mostly.

Anyhow you can hit its tank, give it a RoF bonus and a range bonus and you have a much more beastly small gang ship. I welcome this change since im rarely in a fleet over 20 pilots :D
Hoskoal Ricks
#28 - 2012-01-17 21:50:19 UTC
Does this mean we get cruise missiles that don't suck in pvp and torps that don't require a ship bonus or a mountain of ewar to apply dps? Might I even wonder or wish for t2 missiles without insane drawbacks?
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#29 - 2012-01-17 22:03:46 UTC
Thought I should post this relevent youtube video I saw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=975r0RRE4B4&list=UUnwxEJHNt8JnuwAsMUVoF4g&index=1&feature=plcp

Go to 1:12 and watch. 3 Drakes vs. Deimos that's already been fighting for a bit.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Garmon
Gods Holy Light Bringing You're Penance
#30 - 2012-01-17 22:09:40 UTC
caldari needs a complete overhaul, apart from the drake and the tengu, their ships are terrible when the alternatives are considered
I like Duncan
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-01-17 22:13:37 UTC
I disagree with the entire premise.

Anyone can train anything, there there is no 'favorite'. It's clearly no secret which ships, modules, or weapons hold some advantage at any given time in an ever-evolving game. Especially when something new is added and unexpected fall out occurs. Train missiles, train guns, quit whining.

Drakes are very good for PvE, and tank well in PvP- but missiles carry limitations as well. In a world dominated by high alpha strikes from outside scram range- missiles are always panned in favor of insta-damage weapons. And even a nano-BC is never going to keep up with a decently flown frigate, nor should the fight be that one sided.....

I fly drakes around and often die just as fast as in frigates. Eventually everyone that undocks, dies.

ECM is an even better example of balance- it's all or nothing- it can either be a win-button or a waste of a ship. No one puts a single random ECM in a mid- the chances of being attacked by that one race out of four is terrible odds- and that's just to get a change to jam!!! Multi=spec's are a waste of a slot better spent on tank.

only dedicated ECM birds are really worth outfitting with it, usually in a rainbow, and if you haven't flown a Blackbird- let me tell you that you might spend hours playing Eve flying around to last exactly 5 seconds in a fight when you are primaried with no tank of your own.
It's just like Logi- it's really strong if you use it and have specialized ships for it- but useless on it's own or outside of tight parameters.

The problem is poor FC skills. A call for ships rather than CHARACTERS is the first sign of Fail in an FC. YOU ARE NOT YOUR SHIP. I'd rather people fly what they are actually good at, than think of them as little more than sentient BC-sized drones.
After that- blobs are sign number two your FC needs replaced. Eve works remarkably like the real world Navies where all ship sizes are represented and fill specific roles.
I get that with poor fleet turn outs, DPS is at a premium- but a good FC will look at what his fleet is made of- THEN work up a plan based on that- rather than just demand everyone fly one thing.

My biggest pet peeve in this game in fact- FC's that mistake players for talking drones.
Alara IonStorm
#32 - 2012-01-17 22:14:32 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:

Go to 1:12 and watch. 3 Drakes vs. Deimos that's already been fighting for a bit.

Their you have the number one reason not to only pack Kinetic Missiles on your Drake. Roll

Bet Orbiting at 1km did not help much ether against those Blaster Boats.
Hoskoal Ricks
#33 - 2012-01-17 22:25:23 UTC
Garmon wrote:
caldari needs a complete overhaul, apart from the drake and the tengu, their ships are terrible when the alternatives are considered


The gospel of my lord. Thanks be to Garmon.
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#34 - 2012-01-17 22:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Xpaulusx
Garmon wrote:
caldari needs a complete overhaul, apart from the drake and the tengu, their ships are terrible when the alternatives are considered

^ This, yes and instead of nerfing an entire race, bring the other races up to snuff, caldari really have no front line effective combat pvp battleship like the malmstrom, tempest Apoc, abby, etc. There HACs are almost never seen in small gangs. If there going to nerf the Drake & Tengu, they better dam well fix our other ships and missles as well. ECM is not over powered, it has a counter called ECCM, start useing it if your that afraid of us falcon pilots.

......................................................
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#35 - 2012-01-17 22:32:28 UTC
I for one welcome the prospect of a RoF-bonused, velocity bonused Drake.

BRB buying HAM II launchers Pirate

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
supr3m3justic3
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-01-17 22:34:48 UTC
LOL @ everyone in this thread whinning about drakes....
Caldari is the worst PVP race to fly with, the only ships they have are Drakes and falcons.
And because of caldari being the most popular race, the ships are overly used...well atleast the drake is.
There are easily 2x as many pilots flying minmitar ships than caldari. Even though 1/2 prolly started out as caldari, like me.
I fly caldari, min, and gall.....

and to say the talos needs a buff...HAHAHAHAHAHA, sounds like CCP needs to play thier own game.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#37 - 2012-01-17 22:49:43 UTC
They should just change every single ship in the game to a Rifter.

Then we wont have to have these debates anymore.
Hanoch Wheel
Free Wheeling Industries
#38 - 2012-01-17 22:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Hanoch Wheel
Val MeR wrote:
http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2011/CSM_CCP_Mettings_7-9_12_2011.pdf

It seems like CCP is favoring Minmatar, while CSM is made up of Gallente... well, of course its all made in the name of "balance", but see for yourself if you like those small changes:

“CCP and the CSM discussed the new Tier 3 battlecruisers. CCP noted that the Talos needs adjustment upwards; the CSM noted that the Naga is too powerful compared to the Talos. CCP acknowledged this, citing the difficulty of finding a role for blasters as well as the power of passive shield tanking.”

Naga is overpowered? Power of passive shield tanking on a Naga?

“CCP and the CSM agreed that remote sensor dampeners have been rendered useless and need rebalancing. CCP wants to look into this, as well as the damping ships themselves. The CSM also discussed the merits (or lack thereof) of ECM.”

Yeah, Caldari are unworthy of ECM magic…

“The CSM and CCP both acknowledged the need to rebalance Drake, which ‘does everything too too well’. CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinetic damage bonus and instead gain a rate of fire bonus and a missile velocity bonus. The CSM vehemently approved of this idea. CCP and the CSM also agreed that this possible change to the Drake would help add more uniqueness to the Nighthawk, which is presently overshadowed entirely by the Drake.”

Nerf Drake, so it can become as “desirable” as “offensive Raven or Caracal”… NightHawk will finally “shine”… at least when compared to a NEW "offensive Drake."


I was a bit stunned by this as well. Mostly I was pleased by the CSM minutes, but this stuck out like a sore thumb.

Not that it is news that the Drake is a very capable ship. But that it is being singled out as apparently the only ship worthy of the nerfbat at this time. While simultaneously people decrying how bad missiles suck, the Drake missile boat is overpowered? The only reason its not a failboat is that its got shield to spare while slowly dishing out volleys of decent damage.

Its not like people are calling Caldari the Win-dari or anything. Drake fleets are not rampaging across the known universe in unstoppable masses. Nerf the Drake and leave the Cane alone? Not that the cane really needs it with Tier 3 battlecruisers around.

Comparisons against a T2 battlecruiser seem also surreal, the amount of time it takes to train into Nighthawk is comparable to a Tengu. No one is going to decide not to fly a Nighthawk because they prefer a Drake; it is going to be a decision between a Nighthawk or Tengu.

The Drake is one of the few joys a young Caldari pilot gets to look forward to. Nerf that and there will likely be a drastic decline in Caldari pilots who are not exactly the vast majority.

I don't get the perception that the Talos needs a boost over the Naga either. At first it seemed like the Naga was better with the superior range, but more recently the consensus is that the Naga is weaker at least solo, due to lack of drones and slower tracking. I suspect the CSM's fleet focus may be the reason they think the Talos is not so capable. Talos could use a touch more speed I think, maybe. Help it get to blaster ranges, but aside from that, maybe the Naga needs a boost (drone bay?).

Generally speaking, I think nerfings should be avoided unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, continued mild buffs to the weaker ships are far more interesting, and simulate a wartime economy and march of technology much better.

Taking away both Drake's bonuses and changing them is going to lead to a whiplash of Drake pilots feeling abused and betrayed. If the Drake must be nerfed I would advocate subtlety, rather than respec'ing the ship into a different role.
Hanoch Wheel
Free Wheeling Industries
#39 - 2012-01-17 22:53:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I for one welcome the prospect of a RoF-bonused, velocity bonused Drake.

BRB buying HAM II launchers Pirate


Would it be wrong to characterize this proposed nerfing as HAM-fisted?
Hoskoal Ricks
#40 - 2012-01-17 23:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Hoskoal Ricks
The drake tank nerf isn't something we should bemoan. The silly part is the lack of address to the rest of caldari after taking away the shining stars in their lineup. Quite literally the tengu is the only best-in-class ship caldari have left when the drake and falcon are out of the picture. The rokh, for all it's current hype (thanks to PL) will not take up that much slack. The naga fills a niche the size of a thimble. Remaining hybrid platforms run from moderately useful (harpy) to abhorrent garbage (eagle). Other missile platforms follow a similar trend, but they inhabit niche roles that are tiny or non-existent themselves.

This proposal would take what is shaping up to be a fairly wise balance expansion via hybrid buff, into a hellscape where caldari are the new gallente and fotm once again pivots on minmatar and amarr flavors of the month with gals occupying the former ground of the caldari, championed by a few powerful ships (of which the talos is certainly one) but overall held back by the flaws in their favored weapon system and individual ship balance.