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New Dev Blog: CSM December summit – meeting minutes are out

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Author
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#61 - 2012-01-17 19:44:57 UTC
If CCP is seriously considering rebalancing or buffing T1 frigs, T1 cruisers, and Tier 1 BCs, I'd suggest asking someone like The Altruist to join the CSM first.

His "Know Your Enemy" series of articles shows a great breadth of experience with these ships - incl. strengths and weaknesses - without any particular bias towards any specific race or weapons.

http://www.evealtruist.com/p/article-index.html
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#62 - 2012-01-17 19:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Comments:
- Please don't implement some kind of color coded system to get information across in PVP. There are a non-trivial number of color blind people playing Eve that would suddenly be at a MASSIVE disadvantage in PVP.
- It sounds like the intention is to make Low Sec == FW. If you do this, please don't forget pirates. We were here first. If nothing else, bring pirate factions into the FW with missions like "Get 20 kills in region X".
- I am very glad to hear that you're hesitant to overboost AFs by giving them an extra slot. I am equally glad to know that the second mid is mandatory.
- Please don't mess up WH space. Its one of the few bastions of actual small gang warfare and WH stabilizers would really mess with that.
- Please fix POS living, and allow Rorqual clone bays to work in WH space. PLEASE.

Hmm, that's probably a good start. :)

-Liang

Ed: Oh, I'm super stoked to hear plans of buffing T1 frigs/cruisers and command ships. While you're at it please look at all ships that have the reputation for being total rubbish or being impossible to properly fit.

Also the Drake nerf is probably not necessary but I won't fight against it too much.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Crasniya
The Aussienauts
#63 - 2012-01-17 19:57:50 UTC
I'd like to voice the opinion that "Aurum" and "Micro-PLEX" are effectively the same thing, and it's dumb to try and claim they're different. What would make more sense, is simply revamping Aurum into working like the described Micro-PLEX. People aren't stupid, (I think), and probably realize that Aurum is effectively just one-way Micro-PLEX.

Importantly, if Aurum was replaced with Micro-PLEX as a different currency, I assume there would be a conversion rate provided from Aurum, correct?

Soraya Xel - Council of Planetary Management 1 - soraya@biomassed.net

GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#64 - 2012-01-17 20:04:44 UTC
@concerns for master accounts. A few pointers:

- There is no design yet, but if/when it will happen, our security specialists will be heavily involved.
- Right now if one of your accounts gets compromised, usually the others get compromised as well; this is without master accounts.
- It is highly likely that all accounts will still have their own passwords and that can only be reset through your email; thus as long as your email is safe and you do not reuse passwords it should be fine. (If your email is compromised you have bigger issues as that is the single most important identifier for almost all online services).

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master

Callic Veratar
#65 - 2012-01-17 20:05:54 UTC
When the veteran loyalty program was mentioned I immediately thought of a CCP Corp LP store. Every active account gets 1LP per day that can be traded in for cool stuff at a price of 365 LP each.

It shouldn't be TOO hard to retroactively add a CCP fleet line to everyone's LP. Set them up similar to this years Christmas present with a list of things we can have (preferably consumables and/or blueprint copies) and let it run free.
Yakumo Smith
No End To Infinity
#66 - 2012-01-17 20:08:43 UTC
The minutes were very nice reading.

I've been very impressed wih the CSM this year and am regaining faith steadily in CCP.

The proposed changes and fixes may actually get me back out to 0.0 again...we'll see. What is certain is that i'm comfortable enough subbing 4 accounts for another 2 years and have done so off the back of this renewed faith.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#67 - 2012-01-17 20:12:58 UTC
Crasniya wrote:
I'd like to voice the opinion that "Aurum" and "Micro-PLEX" are effectively the same thing, and it's dumb to try and claim they're different. What would make more sense, is simply revamping Aurum into working like the described Micro-PLEX. People aren't stupid, (I think), and probably realize that Aurum is effectively just one-way Micro-PLEX.

Importantly, if Aurum was replaced with Micro-PLEX as a different currency, I assume there would be a conversion rate provided from Aurum, correct?


The Idea is that Micro-Plex can be redeemed for Gametime, something that Aurum cannot do at the moment.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-01-17 20:13:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagehi
GM Homonoia wrote:
@concerns for master accounts. A few pointers:

- There is no design yet, but if/when it will happen, our security specialists will be heavily involved.
- Right now if one of your accounts gets compromised, usually the others get compromised as well; this is without master accounts.
- It is highly likely that all accounts will still have their own passwords and that can only be reset through your email; thus as long as your email is safe and you do not reuse passwords it should be fine. (If your email is compromised you have bigger issues as that is the single most important identifier for almost all online services).


My biggest concern for master accounts is the ease with which corps/alliances would be able to require API of EVERY character owned by a player, thus making certain play styles more difficult (such as spying), or simply making players choose one play style, as a null corp/alliance may have a problem with a player doing FW on the side, or moonlighting for a merc group with a different character, or variations on those themes.

It is already unpleasant enough that alliances are able to require access to your finances, market orders, and email to access other organizations' comms. It would be far worse if all the characters were lumped together.
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
#69 - 2012-01-17 20:17:54 UTC
I have to say I really want a corp logo on my ship.

Be nice if as a corp we had to pay for this intially with the end user paying much less once the corp has bought the logo,
Also a player should pay once for each logo they want rather than each player paying for each ship.
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
#70 - 2012-01-17 20:18:57 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
@concerns for master accounts. A few pointers:

- There is no design yet, but if/when it will happen, our security specialists will be heavily involved.
- Right now if one of your accounts gets compromised, usually the others get compromised as well; this is without master accounts.
- It is highly likely that all accounts will still have their own passwords and that can only be reset through your email; thus as long as your email is safe and you do not reuse passwords it should be fine. (If your email is compromised you have bigger issues as that is the single most important identifier for almost all online services).



I was just wondering if you had any plans for it yet :)
Crasniya
The Aussienauts
#71 - 2012-01-17 20:18:58 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Crasniya wrote:
I'd like to voice the opinion that "Aurum" and "Micro-PLEX" are effectively the same thing, and it's dumb to try and claim they're different. What would make more sense, is simply revamping Aurum into working like the described Micro-PLEX. People aren't stupid, (I think), and probably realize that Aurum is effectively just one-way Micro-PLEX.

Importantly, if Aurum was replaced with Micro-PLEX as a different currency, I assume there would be a conversion rate provided from Aurum, correct?


The Idea is that Micro-Plex can be redeemed for Gametime, something that Aurum cannot do at the moment.


And my point is, that should change, but Aurum should remain the currency. It's a true currency rather than an item, and it's easier to pronounce or acronym. How would you refer to Micro-PLEX? mPLEX? plex (lowercase)?

I'd rather get rid of PLEX entirely. Buy Aurum outright, and buy gametime with Aurum outright. PLEX is a pain because it's hard to split, and if you go to Micro-PLEX, you still have the issue with PLEX and Micro-PLEX being effectively two currencies. Not to mention the requirement you ship it. Most MMOs premium currencies don't work that way, and aren't that "large" (Smallest unit = $20).

Soraya Xel - Council of Planetary Management 1 - soraya@biomassed.net

mkint
#72 - 2012-01-17 20:21:28 UTC
Long long read. In lieu of my impressions, both good (there really is a lot of good) and bad (most of the bad is merely irritating rather than game breaking), of the summit notes, let's jump straight to the one, and only one, issue that really matters.

The TL;DR of it is, EVE will soon be the most polished piece of dead end software around.

CSM is apparently winning the war against, well, everyone. Not only will nullbears never have their empires truly challenged, they will be able to park their nice safe empire winners in nice safe stations, meaning holding their nice safe empires will no longer require parking alts for their supers.

CCP: consider the conflict of interest... nullbears want "conflict drivers" i.e. targets, but don't want to be targets. So "throw a bunch of useless cattle in our edge systems that we are vampiring the hell out of, let them eat dirt, and let us eat them." A game that requires supers to win, in which supers are available ONLY to groups that have already "won" is a f*cked up game. Period.

Now more than ever am I convinced that EVE is a game that is not meant to be played. It is meant to be RMT'd.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Lili Lu
#73 - 2012-01-17 20:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Ok, this looks good and I like much of what was said in the minutes.

However (yes the negative gets the most response Lol ) I was very surprised, disappointed, AND MADE EXTREMELY MAD (u mad, hell yes i'm madEvil) by the quote at the bottom of page 12: "The CSM reiterated its desire for CCP to implement a partial skill respec, especially in the aftermath of major changes to ship classes such as the removal of drones from supercarriers."

NO NO NO and again NO ******* WAY! NO ******* SKILL RESPECSX NOT FOR NOOBS NOT FOR SUPERCARRIER PILOTS NOT FOR ANYONE.

That would fundamentally change what EVE has been. We all have skills we no longer use, whether because we chose to change our direction or because ship balancing changes may have taken away our former I-win button. Respecs will only ensure and insure more fotm chasing and I-win button chasing.

I WILL REPEAT NO ******* GODDAMN SKILL RESPECS. THAT IS ALMOST AS BAD A CHANGE AS P2W WAS.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2012-01-17 20:28:10 UTC
I am looking forward to the cloaking system turning into more of a Submarine Approach

Cloakers now using Certain types of Planets or Spacial Anomolies to hind better from the Searching boats

Special Modules that emitte a short range ping that may alear the cloak ship is close and will be easier to find with the hunting ship.

Counter Measures and Counter Counter Measures

Launching Depth Probs that explode in Deep space to attempt to disable cloack ships or get a solid pin off of...

Will make the Game of Finding the cloakers a lot more fun than just feeling Frustrated Not being able to do anything.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

mkint
#75 - 2012-01-17 20:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
RubyPorto wrote:
Crasniya wrote:
I'd like to voice the opinion that "Aurum" and "Micro-PLEX" are effectively the same thing, and it's dumb to try and claim they're different. What would make more sense, is simply revamping Aurum into working like the described Micro-PLEX. People aren't stupid, (I think), and probably realize that Aurum is effectively just one-way Micro-PLEX.

Importantly, if Aurum was replaced with Micro-PLEX as a different currency, I assume there would be a conversion rate provided from Aurum, correct?


The Idea is that Micro-Plex can be redeemed for Gametime, something that Aurum cannot do at the moment.

My impression was also that microplex would be tradable on the market. Need only 10 days to sub before you get your next paycheck, buy 10 microplex off the market. It could avoid being a currency altogether, and still be useful and increase PLEX consumption. Having it also do currency stuff would be acceptable besides.

edit: also related to this, I like the idea of combining all markets (minus contracts) into one. Handling the "required items" might need to be limited to NPC seeds, otherwise it would either be completely unused, else make what is already a complicated system completely unusable for the average player.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#76 - 2012-01-17 20:39:41 UTC
Considering that the majority of new players spend their trial period in high sec, doing high sec things, I'm surprised to see that the CSM and CCP spent virtually no time discussing long-standing issues such as high sec mining, mission running, complexes, and high sec PVP - all of which are badly in need of major improvements/enhancements.

If you really want to improve the NPE, then high sec issues need to be addressed, as well.

For example, PVP should not be about getting to low or null sec as fast as possible. There should be viable PVP in high sec, preferably focusing on T1 ships and T1 modules. Personally, I'm very tired of hearing people telling new players that they have to spend months training up for T2 guns, in order to really do PVP. And, I'm similarly tired of watching new players flying for the first time in their barely affordable T1 ships only to get popped over and over again by more experienced players in T2 ships. This is not fun and only encourages new players to quit.

Despite some minor drawbacks, I see RvB as being a good model for high sec PVP for new players - can this sort of thing be expanded and better supported by high sec game mechanics?

Complexes and missions in high sec should not be semi-AFK activities for experienced players to run over and over again for ISK generation. The static DED complexes, in particular, are no fun for new players, when an experienced player in a T2 ship can repeatedly blitz the complex and scoop up the shiny prize. Limiting high sec complexes and missions to T1 ships won't prevent such abuse completely, but it will help to reduce it. Alternatively, there could be a skill point limit applied to classes of complexes and missions, restricting them to new players and forcing higher SP players to look elsewhere for ISK farming activities.

Mining. I don't think mining has seen any signficant changes or improvements in all the years I've been playing the game (well, except for artwork). Given the large number of players who do nothing but mining, you'd think that this aspect would see some changes to gameplay to make it more interactive and fun - and perhaps a bit more random, as well, to help deal with the macro bot fleets. The T1 mining barges need some balancing work and the Covetor needs a long overdue reduction in skill reqs. Frigate and cruiser mining shps warrant another look by CCP devs, to make them more worthwhile for the new player, rather than just something unproductive to sit in while training for a mining barge.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-01-17 21:03:29 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Considering that the majority of new players spend their trial period in high sec, doing high sec things, I'm surprised to see that the CSM and CCP spent virtually no time discussing long-standing issues such as high sec mining, mission running, complexes, and high sec PVP - all of which are badly in need of major improvements/enhancements.

If you really want to improve the NPE, then high sec issues need to be addressed, as well.

For example, PVP should not be about getting to low or null sec as fast as possible. There should be viable PVP in high sec, preferably focusing on T1 ships and T1 modules. Personally, I'm very tired of hearing people telling new players that they have to spend months training up for T2 guns, in order to really do PVP. And, I'm similarly tired of watching new players flying for the first time in their barely affordable T1 ships only to get popped over and over again by more experienced players in T2 ships. This is not fun and only encourages new players to quit.

Despite some minor drawbacks, I see RvB as being a good model for high sec PVP for new players - can this sort of thing be expanded and better supported by high sec game mechanics?

Complexes and missions in high sec should not be semi-AFK activities for experienced players to run over and over again for ISK generation. The static DED complexes, in particular, are no fun for new players, when an experienced player in a T2 ship can repeatedly blitz the complex and scoop up the shiny prize. Limiting high sec complexes and missions to T1 ships won't prevent such abuse completely, but it will help to reduce it. Alternatively, there could be a skill point limit applied to classes of complexes and missions, restricting them to new players and forcing higher SP players to look elsewhere for ISK farming activities.

Mining. I don't think mining has seen any signficant changes or improvements in all the years I've been playing the game (well, except for artwork). Given the large number of players who do nothing but mining, you'd think that this aspect would see some changes to gameplay to make it more interactive and fun - and perhaps a bit more random, as well, to help deal with the macro bot fleets. The T1 mining barges need some balancing work and the Covetor needs a long overdue reduction in skill reqs. Frigate and cruiser mining shps warrant another look by CCP devs, to make them more worthwhile for the new player, rather than just something unproductive to sit in while training for a mining barge.


If FW was more functional, I think that would solve the issues of a lack of newbie PVP. Besides, in less than a month, a player can be flying a T2 fit, T2 frigate. Players who chose to fly something large, then complain how long it takes to fly it do not get much sympathy.
Jita Alt666
#78 - 2012-01-17 21:05:09 UTC
The overall approach and direction seems much improved from 2010. Skill re-spec is a no no though.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#79 - 2012-01-17 21:07:10 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Comments:
- Please don't mess up WH space. Its one of the few bastions of actual small gang warfare and WH stabilizers would really mess with that.


I wasn't at the summit, but I have already yelled loudly at the folks that were there about how bad stabilizing wormholes would be. They would take away the main unique feature of w-space, and would only make the strong organizations in w-space stronger, at the expense of everyone else.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

TorTorden
Tors shibari party
#80 - 2012-01-17 21:09:42 UTC
Quote:
The CSM is completely united in its desire to see destructible outposts, and views the question as a “when," not an “if”. The CSM noted that there are a number of ideas about how to best implement destructible outposts, ranging from complete destruction to a repairable wreck to a system that moves the assets in the destroyed outpost to the nearest NPC station


I think lost assets should be exactly that, a small drop 20% in freight containers and the rest destroyed.

I you are logged off in a station that is destroyed. You are podded and get log into your medical clone.