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Using a DST's fleet hangar to scoop loot needs rebalancing

Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2016-09-18 07:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
baltec1 wrote:
Stick your cargo into a freight container and this can't be pulled.


Also it increases the risk for the gankers. If I put all my stuff in one freight container and then it is 50/50 that it drops.

If you are not seeing it suppose I have 100 items. Now the probability that none of it drops is 0.5^100, which is a very small number. With a container, the probability none of it drops is 0.5, a number that is 6.33825E+29 times larger.

Again, the issue here is not the mechanics but players who are just imprudent players. Making it easier on morons means all you'll get is more imprudent players.

And you change imprudent players by showing how much their imprudence costs them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lugh Crow-Slave
#22 - 2016-09-18 07:45:41 UTC
But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2016-09-18 07:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal


These things are interconnected. To pretend they are not is also foolish. This is clearly a nerf to ganking.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2016-09-18 08:43:09 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal


Ganking is the only reason this is getting whined about.

Frankly the DST should not have gotten this hold anyway, it should be a normal hold so people can have the option to fit cargo extenders.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2016-09-18 11:15:34 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Stick your cargo into a freight container and this can't be pulled.


Also it increases the risk for the gankers. If I put all my stuff in one freight container and then it is 50/50 that it drops.

I thought you had a strong background in economics and statistics? It doesn't increase risk. 50/50 is still 50/50, whether it comes in one chunk or many tiny ones. Gank 10 freighters and it balances out, because every now and then a freight container full of goodies will drop.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#26 - 2016-09-18 11:30:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal


Ganking is the only reason this is getting whined about.

Frankly the DST should not have gotten this hold anyway, it should be a normal hold so people can have the option to fit cargo extenders.


This I disagree with, because the DST's are simply awesome ships with the current way they can be fit.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2016-09-18 11:30:44 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Stick your cargo into a freight container and this can't be pulled.


Also it increases the risk for the gankers. If I put all my stuff in one freight container and then it is 50/50 that it drops.

I thought you had a strong background in economics and statistics? It doesn't increase risk. 50/50 is still 50/50, whether it comes in one chunk or many tiny ones. Gank 10 freighters and it balances out, because every now and then a freight container full of goodies will drop.


Way more likely to get paid if the freighter is stuffed with 100 individual stacks than just the one big one.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2016-09-18 11:33:20 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal


Ganking is the only reason this is getting whined about.

Frankly the DST should not have gotten this hold anyway, it should be a normal hold so people can have the option to fit cargo extenders.


This I disagree with, because the DST's are simply awesome ships with the current way they can be fit.


They took away the choice of cargo or tank. Thats not good in my book as it is effectively CCP saying you are too dumb to make that choice for yourself.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#29 - 2016-09-18 11:46:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal


Ganking is the only reason this is getting whined about.

Frankly the DST should not have gotten this hold anyway, it should be a normal hold so people can have the option to fit cargo extenders.


This I disagree with, because the DST's are simply awesome ships with the current way they can be fit.


They took away the choice of cargo or tank. Thats not good in my book as it is effectively CCP saying you are too dumb to make that choice for yourself.



Not sure they really did considering there are still people who cargo fit them
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2016-09-18 13:24:02 UTC
Not to mention there are many more choices than either 'tank' or 'cargo'. Hyperspeed velocity? Agility? Dualprop to burn back when needed? More warpstabs? Perhaps power diagnostics for MOAR TANKK?! Some run with cloak/MWD, some build for tank, some have scanprobes on them; some build active tanks, some go for buffer-- cargo is a choice already made by the very fact we're using a DST.

Of course, if cargo expanders would expand your fleet hangar too, it'd open up even more options but that's really besides the point of exploitlooting. Yes, exploit. Receiving no suspect flag where one is due is nothing but following the rule to the letter rather than to its spirit.

Another option would be to force the step in-between, eg: place contents in your own cargohold/fleet hangar, then transfer them to someone else's. That would ensure you can't use a ship with 120 m3 cargohold to move thousands of m3 at once. You could still use a cargoexpanded bestower as a throwaway ship but at least it'd offer some counterplay.

Fitting options on a DST are totally irrelevant. How/why the ship got ganked in the first place is totally irrelevant. How stupid the pilot is and how the game's dumbing down is irrelevant. This is about moving suspect cargo without suspect flag -- same as our thread about bumping was about applying a point without suspect flag.

This incessant sidetracking is the latest and greatest strategy of last resort to get any discussion locked I guess. Back to the basics: a ship that can't hold the cargo is used to load cargo into another ship. The ship going suspect is worthless, the ship holding the cargo which *should* be suspect flagged is not. Nobody cares about how either is fit. It's about the flag applying to the wrong ship.

Either (a) the DST should be the one doing the looting (as the noobship can't hold it), or (b) the DST should go suspect when a suspect ship drops anything in it. Other possibilities exist but that would require some coding. Please explain why in your opinion, current mechanics are fine?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2016-09-18 13:38:25 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



Not sure they really did considering there are still people who cargo fit them


They tend to get called plonkers. Adding cargo extenders to a 3k hold when you have a built in 60k hold isn't something most of us are going to do.

Its an oddity I have seen happen to a few ships, the blockade runner is a fine example. I have yet to understand why it gets immunity to cargo scanners when it spends the entire time its in space cloaked and thus unscannable.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#32 - 2016-09-18 14:27:32 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:

It doesnt matter who it nerfs or buffs. Its a bad mechanic that needs to be looked at. The fact that gankers primarilly use it doesnt matter. If there were another activity that resulted in potential billions being scooped up in a risk averse manner, i would want that addressed as well.



Rewarding stupid is never a good move. Ever.

How is this change rewarding stupid?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2016-09-18 14:50:32 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:

It doesnt matter who it nerfs or buffs. Its a bad mechanic that needs to be looked at. The fact that gankers primarilly use it doesnt matter. If there were another activity that resulted in potential billions being scooped up in a risk averse manner, i would want that addressed as well.



Rewarding stupid is never a good move. Ever.

How is this change rewarding stupid?


There is already a rather easy way to stop this from happening.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#34 - 2016-09-18 14:55:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal


Ganking is the only reason this is getting whined about.

Sure, youre right but I dont see the complaints as unjustified or "just another nerf to ganking" I see this as a fundamental issue in risk vs reward where a system of mechanics is being allowed to be bypassed in order to secure your reward while minimizing the risk in going suspect.

I have been heavily involved in ganking myself and have different feelings depending on the specific part being discussed. I dont think im extreme towards either side of the ganking arguments because I know that there are reasonable counters as well as a few things that I find issues with... For example I think that haulers and players have all the necessary tools and information to not get bumped or ganked in the first place. I know that once you get bumped and the gank is likely to happen, there are still ways to escape or make the gank unprofitable, so I consider the actual act of ganking about as balanced as you can make it. Then we move on to looting the wreck where I find that not having to go suspect by looting into a fleet hangar isnt in line with the risk / reward.

So this isnt about nerfing ganking specifically because I hate ganking. Thats simply not true becsuse I enjoy ganking. I did hyperdunking when it was at its prime and was able to both do it completely solo and with small groups of people. Its about bringing balance to a part of someones gameplay that is bypassing a set of mechanics put in place. I understand the need and want to preserve any edge or advantage in any of your preferred playstyles of gameplay, because I know plenty of gankers that are very extreme and hypocritical when it comes to balancing and nerfs to PvE and other various carebear things. In the end, everyone has an agenda and I dont fault people for pushing theirs. This is purely about balance though.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2016-09-18 15:00:27 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal


Ganking is the only reason this is getting whined about.

Sure, youre right but I dont see the complaints as unjustified or "just another nerf to ganking" I see this as a fundamental issue in risk vs reward where a system of mechanics is being allowed to be bypassed in order to secure your reward while minimizing the risk in going suspect.

I have been heavily involved in ganking myself and have different feelings depending on the specific part being discussed. I dont think im extreme towards either side of the ganking arguments because I know that there are reasonable counters as well as a few things that I find issues with... For example I think that haulers and players have all the necessary tools and information to not get bumped or ganked in the first place. I know that once you get bumped and the gank is likely to happen, there are still ways to escape or make the gank unprofitable, so I consider the actual act of ganking about as balanced as you can make it. Then we move on to looting the wreck where I find that not having to go suspect by looting into a fleet hangar isnt in line with the risk / reward.

So this isnt about nerfing ganking specifically because I hate ganking. Thats simply not true becsuse I enjoy ganking. I did hyperdunking when it was at its prime and was able to both do it completely solo and with small groups of people. Its about bringing balance to a part of someones gameplay that is bypassing a set of mechanics put in place. I understand the need and want to preserve any edge or advantage in any of your preferred playstyles of gameplay, because I know plenty of gankers that are very extreme and hypocritical when it comes to balancing and nerfs to PvE and other various carebear things. In the end, everyone has an agenda and I dont fault people for pushing theirs. This is purely about balance though.


Frankly, if we are going to nerf this then it should be in the form of taking away the fleet bay and making it have a normal cargo bay again. DST should never have had this in the first place.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#36 - 2016-09-18 15:08:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal


Ganking is the only reason this is getting whined about.

Sure, youre right but I dont see the complaints as unjustified or "just another nerf to ganking" I see this as a fundamental issue in risk vs reward where a system of mechanics is being allowed to be bypassed in order to secure your reward while minimizing the risk in going suspect.

I have been heavily involved in ganking myself and have different feelings depending on the specific part being discussed. I dont think im extreme towards either side of the ganking arguments because I know that there are reasonable counters as well as a few things that I find issues with... For example I think that haulers and players have all the necessary tools and information to not get bumped or ganked in the first place. I know that once you get bumped and the gank is likely to happen, there are still ways to escape or make the gank unprofitable, so I consider the actual act of ganking about as balanced as you can make it. Then we move on to looting the wreck where I find that not having to go suspect by looting into a fleet hangar isnt in line with the risk / reward.

So this isnt about nerfing ganking specifically because I hate ganking. Thats simply not true becsuse I enjoy ganking. I did hyperdunking when it was at its prime and was able to both do it completely solo and with small groups of people. Its about bringing balance to a part of someones gameplay that is bypassing a set of mechanics put in place. I understand the need and want to preserve any edge or advantage in any of your preferred playstyles of gameplay, because I know plenty of gankers that are very extreme and hypocritical when it comes to balancing and nerfs to PvE and other various carebear things. In the end, everyone has an agenda and I dont fault people for pushing theirs. This is purely about balance though.


Frankly, if we are going to nerf this then it should be in the form of taking away the fleet bay and making it have a normal cargo bay again. DST should never have had this in the first place.

Sure thats an option, but I think the DST's fleet hangar has legit usefullness outside of looting gank wrecks. The balancing issues surrounding the DST isnt relevant here when you start bringing up the fact that it can't be scanned or can perform the cloak+mwd trick because even if you opt to rebalance the DST there is still the Orca that you can use.

Yeah I would say thay the easiest way to counter the DST looting would be to get bumps on it or to actuslly gank it yourself but I dont really see those as viable options in this situation. Just because something has a few way it could possibly be countered doesnt mean its practical or that the mechanic isnt flawed.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#37 - 2016-09-18 15:16:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



Not sure they really did considering there are still people who cargo fit them


They tend to get called plonkers. Adding cargo extenders to a 3k hold when you have a built in 60k hold isn't something most of us are going to do.

Its an oddity I have seen happen to a few ships, the blockade runner is a fine example. I have yet to understand why it gets immunity to cargo scanners when it spends the entire time its in space cloaked and thus unscannable.


Never did make much sense really.

even on gates its warp, hit cloak and hope faster than the fastest target locker. No one scanned these for starters...you either insta locked and dropped them or see them haul ass from the gate. Extras seconds of scan and decision...the BR is already gone basically.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2016-09-18 16:02:36 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:

Sure thats an option, but I think the DST's fleet hangar has legit usefullness outside of looting gank wrecks. The balancing issues surrounding the DST isnt relevant here when you start bringing up the fact that it can't be scanned or can perform the cloak+mwd trick because even if you opt to rebalance the DST there is still the Orca that you can use.

Yeah I would say thay the easiest way to counter the DST looting would be to get bumps on it or to actuslly gank it yourself but I dont really see those as viable options in this situation. Just because something has a few way it could possibly be countered doesnt mean its practical or that the mechanic isnt flawed.


Gets even easier than that. Simply put your junk in a freight container and nothing but a freighter can loot the wreck.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2016-09-18 16:04:24 UTC
ummm .... freight container? Contracts? Issue.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2016-09-18 16:23:24 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
ummm .... freight container? Contracts? Issue.


The people getting ganked tend to not be the likes of red freightBlink