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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#981 - 2016-09-01 19:46:46 UTC
An interesting move.

You should remove trial accounts completely with the introduction of Alpha Clones. Whether you decide to limit the number of simultaneous launched Alpha accounts to 1 is obviously in your hands, but it would not be a surprise to see Alpha clones used for cheap mining labor. Even if they are using a civilian miner in a badger.

Other than that, this looks like a good idea to get more bodies into the game without compromising the subscriber base.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#982 - 2016-09-01 19:59:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:

[if gaming press was even remotely as decent nowaday as it used to in the past, the titles would be "EvE Online removes time limit from trial accounts"]


No, that's actually on CCP. They spent a lot of time talking about playing Eve for free, not about removing time limits on trial accounts or buffing trial accounts. Can't blame the gaming press for that one - a cursory listen to Seagull's video and read of the blog is definitely making everyone (both here and in the gaming media) use the words free to play. It's almost like they wanted to see the media boost but didn't want to actually use the words.

-Liang

Maybe you ought to listen to what seagull actually said, We would like to introduce a new feature to eve that allows both old and new players to take part in eve for free. Without messing with the base model that eve always has been a subscription model game we want everyone to be able to play and with this we have developed Clone States.

Nowhere in the video or Blog does it infer that the game is free but that they have introduced a new feature Alpha state with all its blurb that allows free play and can be upgraded.
Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#983 - 2016-09-01 20:02:29 UTC
WOW! Very interesting idea.

I have mixed feeling about this, sounds like a catch 22 situation but mucho kudos to you for putting the need of getting more people into New Eden above monies.

Personally I think this could work out well, and might even get more subs long term, without loosing those that can't manage the sub fees or plex prices but still want to play Eve. I will cross all available fingers for ya.

My only fear is, and as you mentioned, regarding server lag. Should this work out well and people start joining in droves, should it effect the quality of play for those of us that do pay monies? No, it shouldn't. Hence the catch 22 situation. But you seem confident you and tranquility can handle it so bring it on. Lets find out.

I already have a few internet friends that might play if its free but the main reason I can't get net or RL mates playing are the ganking issues, not the sub price.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#984 - 2016-09-01 20:04:02 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:

[if gaming press was even remotely as decent nowaday as it used to in the past, the titles would be "EvE Online removes time limit from trial accounts"]


No, that's actually on CCP. They spent a lot of time talking about playing Eve for free, not about removing time limits on trial accounts or buffing trial accounts. Can't blame the gaming press for that one - a cursory listen to Seagull's video and read of the blog is definitely making everyone (both here and in the gaming media) use the words free to play. It's almost like they wanted to see the media boost but didn't want to actually use the words.

-Liang

Maybe you ought to listen to what seagull actually said, We would like to introduce a new feature to eve that allows both old and new players to take part in eve for free. Without messing with the base model that eve always has been a subscription model game we want everyone to be able to play and with this we have developed Clone States.

Nowhere in the video or Blog does it infer that the game is free but that they have introduced a new feature Alpha state with all its blurb that allows free play and can be upgraded.

Come now, it is a F2P move and is rightly being interpreted as such by the gaming media and players of other games. Sure, there are variations on the theme but the key point of being able to play for free means this is a free to play transition.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#985 - 2016-09-01 20:20:12 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:

[if gaming press was even remotely as decent nowaday as it used to in the past, the titles would be "EvE Online removes time limit from trial accounts"]


No, that's actually on CCP. They spent a lot of time talking about playing Eve for free, not about removing time limits on trial accounts or buffing trial accounts. Can't blame the gaming press for that one - a cursory listen to Seagull's video and read of the blog is definitely making everyone (both here and in the gaming media) use the words free to play. It's almost like they wanted to see the media boost but didn't want to actually use the words.

-Liang

Maybe you ought to listen to what seagull actually said, We would like to introduce a new feature to eve that allows both old and new players to take part in eve for free. Without messing with the base model that eve always has been a subscription model game we want everyone to be able to play and with this we have developed Clone States.

Nowhere in the video or Blog does it infer that the game is free but that they have introduced a new feature Alpha state with all its blurb that allows free play and can be upgraded.

Come now, it is a F2P move and is rightly being interpreted as such by the gaming media and players of other games. Sure, there are variations on the theme but the key point of being able to play for free means this is a free to play transition.

I disagree, the hype is what blizzard got when they removed there time limitations of trials with WoW and they got all the same type of thing Play It For Free ..... tiny letters upto level 20. The whole emphasis in the video is to get people playing without time constraints at the same time letting people know its set at racial ships and upto cruiser level and if you want to you can upgrade.

I suppose you see what you want to, anything to ramp up the drama.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#986 - 2016-09-01 20:21:00 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:

[if gaming press was even remotely as decent nowaday as it used to in the past, the titles would be "EvE Online removes time limit from trial accounts"]


No, that's actually on CCP. They spent a lot of time talking about playing Eve for free, not about removing time limits on trial accounts or buffing trial accounts. Can't blame the gaming press for that one - a cursory listen to Seagull's video and read of the blog is definitely making everyone (both here and in the gaming media) use the words free to play. It's almost like they wanted to see the media boost but didn't want to actually use the words.

-Liang

Maybe you ought to listen to what seagull actually said, We would like to introduce a new feature to eve that allows both old and new players to take part in eve for free. Without messing with the base model that eve always has been a subscription model game we want everyone to be able to play and with this we have developed Clone States.

Nowhere in the video or Blog does it infer that the game is free but that they have introduced a new feature Alpha state with all its blurb that allows free play and can be upgraded.


I want to be very clear about something: I'm totally fine with this happening. Hell, I even support Eve pushing in the F2P direction some, because obviously what they're doing isn't working as well as they'd like. But let's make sure we're all on the same footing. I'll copy/paste your text and underline the parts you apparently forgot to read:

CCP Seagull wrote:

We would like to introduce a new feature to eve that allows both old and new players to take part in eve for free. Without messing with the base model that eve always has been a subscription model game we want everyone to be able to play and with this we have developed Clone States.


Don't insult everyone's intelligence by claiming this isn't a free to play move - it is. I'm just concerned that the consequences for doing it half assed will give them the worst of all possible worlds. It'll offend existing players who are virulently anti-F2P and not provide enough of a carrot to convince free players they'd like to stick around. In particular, the extremely limited scope of alpha clones makes even the parts of the game that they can actually interact with feel very much like pay to win.

As it stands, this change won't be that attractive to new players - especially ones who've been around the block a couple of times. Instead, this change is going to be mostly used by existing players. Which is a crying shame, because Eve needs new paying players.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#987 - 2016-09-01 20:26:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:

[if gaming press was even remotely as decent nowaday as it used to in the past, the titles would be "EvE Online removes time limit from trial accounts"]


No, that's actually on CCP. They spent a lot of time talking about playing Eve for free, not about removing time limits on trial accounts or buffing trial accounts. Can't blame the gaming press for that one - a cursory listen to Seagull's video and read of the blog is definitely making everyone (both here and in the gaming media) use the words free to play. It's almost like they wanted to see the media boost but didn't want to actually use the words.

-Liang

Maybe you ought to listen to what seagull actually said, We would like to introduce a new feature to eve that allows both old and new players to take part in eve for free. Without messing with the base model that eve always has been a subscription model game we want everyone to be able to play and with this we have developed Clone States.

Nowhere in the video or Blog does it infer that the game is free but that they have introduced a new feature Alpha state with all its blurb that allows free play and can be upgraded.


I want to be very clear about something: I'm totally fine with this happening. Hell, I even support Eve pushing in the F2P direction some, because obviously what they're doing isn't working as well as they'd like. But let's make sure we're all on the same footing. I'll copy/paste your text and underline the parts you apparently forgot to read:

CCP Seagull wrote:

We would like to introduce a new feature to eve that allows both old and new players to take part in eve for free. Without messing with the base model that eve always has been a subscription model game we want everyone to be able to play and with this we have developed Clone States.


Don't insult everyone's intelligence by claiming this isn't a free to play move - it is. I'm just concerned that the consequences for doing it half assed will give them the worst of all possible worlds. It'll offend existing players who are virulently anti-F2P and not provide enough of a carrot to convince free players they'd like to stick around. In particular, the extremely limited scope of alpha clones makes even the parts of the game that they can actually interact with feel very much like pay to win.

As it stands, this change won't be that attractive to new players - especially ones who've been around the block a couple of times. Instead, this change is going to be mostly used by existing players. Which is a crying shame, because Eve needs new paying players.

-Liang

Cherry picking snippits is quite insulting to people with half a brain too, a Feature not the game but a feature within the game. Something you don't understand ??
Lord Road
People's Democratic Republic of Gatecamping
Muh Zkill...
#988 - 2016-09-01 20:33:04 UTC
Right ... so my PC should be able to handle ~20 clients. A med sized corp will be able to field 1000 toons easily.
Undock 1000 toons. Dock back up. Repeat. Drive the attacker insane in TiDi .

but ... but .. we all know that CCP's infrastructure is fully capable of handling thousands of players, and even during the battle of B-R5 it only (and here we quote) "sweat a bit".

What? we need delve tossed today? Who's turn is to toss 40 systems at once? Jimmy boy, it's your turn!!

So, unless this is limited to one alpha/PC, it will be abused in so many ways that Marilyn Mason would be jealous.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#989 - 2016-09-01 20:39:06 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Cherry picking snippits is quite insulting to people with half a brain too, a Feature not the game but a feature within the game. Something you don't understand ??


Dude, seriously. The entire video was about playing Eve for free. She must say it over a dozen times in the short video. It doesn't matter how much bullshit you want to throw into this, it's still Eve Online - F2P Edition. Money says that in the Steam launcher it's going to say "Free to play" as well. There are expectations that go with that kind of term, and this violates most of them in all the ways that gets everyone upset.

All I'm asking for is that the game doesn't immediately come of tasting like pay to win - because right now it's going to.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#990 - 2016-09-01 20:50:20 UTC
Lord Road wrote:
Right ... so my PC should be able to handle ~20 clients. A med sized corp will be able to field 1000 toons easily.
Undock 1000 toons. Dock back up. Repeat. Drive the attacker insane in TiDi .

but ... but .. we all know that CCP's infrastructure is fully capable of handling thousands of players, and even during the battle of B-R5 it only (and here we quote) "sweat a bit".

What? we need delve tossed today? Who's turn is to toss 40 systems at once? Jimmy boy, it's your turn!!

So, unless this is limited to one alpha/PC, it will be abused in so many ways that Marilyn Mason would be jealous.



Are you saying that NC. all uses the same bot that you use that will allow you to script undock 500 players running 20 accounts each all at the same time?

I think your pointing CCP to a wider issue that needs to be dealt with.
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#991 - 2016-09-01 20:54:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Cherry picking snippits is quite insulting to people with half a brain too, a Feature not the game but a feature within the game. Something you don't understand ??


Dude, seriously. The entire video was about playing Eve for free. She must say it over a dozen times in the short video. It doesn't matter how much bullshit you want to throw into this, it's still Eve Online - F2P Edition. Money says that in the Steam launcher it's going to say "Free to play" as well. There are expectations that go with that kind of term, and this violates most of them in all the ways that gets everyone upset.

All I'm asking for is that the game doesn't immediately come of tasting like pay to win - because right now it's going to.

-Liang

Like i said before there's always someone wanting to ramp up the drama " Over a dozen times " which actually translates to 3 times ......
Lord Road
People's Democratic Republic of Gatecamping
Muh Zkill...
#992 - 2016-09-01 20:57:31 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:
Lord Road wrote:
Right ... so my PC should be able to handle ~20 clients. A med sized corp will be able to field 1000 toons easily.
Undock 1000 toons. Dock back up. Repeat. Drive the attacker insane in TiDi .

but ... but .. we all know that CCP's infrastructure is fully capable of handling thousands of players, and even during the battle of B-R5 it only (and here we quote) "sweat a bit".

What? we need delve tossed today? Who's turn is to toss 40 systems at once? Jimmy boy, it's your turn!!

So, unless this is limited to one alpha/PC, it will be abused in so many ways that Marilyn Mason would be jealous.



Are you saying that NC. all uses the same bot that you use that will allow you to script undock 500 players running 20 accounts each all at the same time?

I think your pointing CCP to a wider issue that needs to be dealt with.



no, but I'm saying your math skills need serious adjustment, cause 500x20 equals way more than CCP's 2003 code can handle on one node.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#993 - 2016-09-01 20:58:31 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Like i said before there's always someone wanting to ramp up the drama " Over a dozen times " which actually translates to 3 times ......


If I were wanting to ramp up the drama I'd be whining about how the change will allow people to exploit the game in a thousand different ways (suicide gankinhg, mining, missions, FW, something) or how Eve is already dead. I'm not even trying to dissuade CCP from their obvious course. I'm trying to be constructive by pointing out what I perceive to be a critical flaw in the fundamental design.

How about you?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

motie one
Secret Passage
#994 - 2016-09-01 20:59:48 UTC
Oradric Cube wrote:
Q: Won’t suicide ganking using free characters be a major problem?

A: We don’t think clone states will have much impact on suicide ganking or other harassment in high-sec. But, we will be paying very close attention and if this becomes an issue we can pursue options to improve the situation such as turning safety’s on for Alphas in high sec or making changes to the allowed skills list.


Dear CCP staff,
None of us truly believe that you are actually this naive. There will, with 100% certainty, be individuals that take advantage of this opportunity to create massive multiboxing fleets constructed of mostly alpha state accounts. We all know it, and we know that you know it. We also know that your "paying close attention" won't amount to much. You are willfully ignoring this issue because you *want* this to happen. If you don't design an automated mechanism (IE max 1 alpha per IP, no red safety on alpha, etc.) for preventing abuse then it will be abused. By not automating this you accept, condone and approve of the abuse. Just admit it.



Whilst it might not have occurred to you can you think of a better way of purging the game of input broadcasters?
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#995 - 2016-09-01 21:07:28 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Like i said before there's always someone wanting to ramp up the drama " Over a dozen times " which actually translates to 3 times ......


If I were wanting to ramp up the drama I'd be whining about how the change will allow people to exploit the game in a thousand different ways (suicide gankinhg, mining, missions, FW, something) or how Eve is already dead. I'm not even trying to dissuade CCP from their obvious course. I'm trying to be constructive by pointing out what I perceive to be a critical flaw in the fundamental design.

How about you?

-Liang

I'm glad you actually said what you perceive as a flaw, everything she said was in context with it being a feature not that they're now changing a business model completely but to enhance the game beyond it's current limitations of timed trials and also including subs that have lapsed can rejoin within Alpha state and see what's changed, reconnect with old mates and maybe resub. Obviously they have to be careful with certain skills and limitations still have to be implemented but it opens it up to a much wider audience paying or other wise.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#996 - 2016-09-01 21:09:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Cherry picking snippits is quite insulting to people with half a brain too, a Feature not the game but a feature within the game. Something you don't understand ??


Dude, seriously. The entire video was about playing Eve for free. She must say it over a dozen times in the short video. It doesn't matter how much bullshit you want to throw into this, it's still Eve Online - F2P Edition. Money says that in the Steam launcher it's going to say "Free to play" as well. There are expectations that go with that kind of term, and this violates most of them in all the ways that gets everyone upset.

All I'm asking for is that the game doesn't immediately come of tasting like pay to win - because right now it's going to.

-Liang


I would be fine if Alphas could not fly, for example, cruisers, but they could fly frigates / dessies well. That means T2 guns and a viable pvp capable fit at minimum. Pay to win - which the proposal so batantly is in its current form would leave pretty bad taste in anyones mouth actually trying to undock with Alpha clone and try to get something done in space.

While any restrictions placed on Alphas will be labeled to some degree as pay to fin (because they will put the alphas at disadvantage in some scenarios or outright prevent some activities) it is paramount, in my opinion, that in whatever niche is they are supposed to sit, they should perform as good as an paying customer in that specific niche.

EVE has enough frigate only content for Alphas to go have a blast and some of them will subscribe eventually when they put in enough time, make friends and form the social ties. FW and Frig wormholes are the prime examples.

For current subscribes .. well they will use Alphas even if all they can fly are the noobships - they already have the social ties usually and it is nice to be able to log in into the client as talk to your old mates, ask how is weather in EVE currently and if it is good enough to give it another round. But a fresh joiner - if it's so blatantly pay to win they will not stick around long enough to subscribe.

So I guess it's a long way of saying that I agree with Liang on this one. Either do it properly or do not do it at all. Trying to jump into the swimming pool but not quite jumping will get you just hurt pretty bad in the process.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#997 - 2016-09-01 21:11:30 UTC
I quite like the idea. People don't really expect to put out money for MMOs before they try them properly these days. This allows people to give it a good crack and at the same time is restrictive enough to make them a bit meh, for more advance play. The restrictions are clearly around keeping the utility for alpha clones strictly down to don't interfere too much with the core. On top of that i like the racial restriction but can go as far as cruisers.

As for t2, are we still beating the dead horse of "but you can't play eve without a trillion SP" Really. In FW lots of people use t1. I use t1 for plenty of things. Just because everyone is obsessed with the most expensive "best" ship. That is just not how eve has *ever* worked. It is not a level based MMO (as in the only thing that matters is player level). One of the reasons i really like it. T1 can and is very useful. It is also bloody cheap and can't be beat for dollar to dollar. Have no problems with the t1 restriction.

I have to say thou i think minmitar core skills should permit both shield and amour tanks. We who love to fly the rust do indeed use both tanks about equally.

Trial accounts are already used for many of the things people here complain about and yes eve is dying and has been just around to corner from the day it was released. It is an old meme, it was stupid back then and is stupid now.

I think some people really should at least read the dev blog. It is clear that alpha clones will have logon restrictions etc. But the levels of these restrictions are still being decided.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

waltari
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#998 - 2016-09-01 21:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: waltari
TigerXtrm wrote:
It's truly amazing to me how many people think they understand how business works, but then go to spew so

blablablabla

1. The major number 1 reason why people quit EVE after their trial is because they can't or won't pay 15 dollars a month to play a video game.
2. They simply don't understand the concept because they grew up in a time where subscription based games had pretty much died out.
3. Most of these people actually seem to be offended by the mere notion of having to pay monthly. They perceive it as a money grab, greed, that sort of stuff.
4. And what you need to understand is that it doesn't matter if they are right or wrong. They are the consumer base CCP needs to survive, whether they like it or not.
5. So they need to appeal to a consumer base that does not want to pay monthly..

blablablabla


1. If so they are worthless and nobody needs em anyway in the first place, isnt it?
2. Same as above
3. And again, no. 1
4. No we dont, and they are not, because of what you wrote in point 1, they wont pay anyway, so no fucks given eh?
5. No they dont, its like giving blind man a plasma TV , waste of time

Whoever cant afford to pay 15bucks a month is probably unemployed homeless anyway. If he/she on the other hand doesnt want to willingly i see no point in allowing them free access no matter how restricted, its like throwing pearls to swine.
motie one
Secret Passage
#999 - 2016-09-01 21:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
waltari wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
It's truly amazing to me how many people think they understand how business works, but then go to spew so

blablablabla

1. The major number 1 reason why people quit EVE after their trial is because they can't or won't pay 15 dollars a month to play a video game.
2. They simply don't understand the concept because they grew up in a time where subscription based games had pretty much died out.
3. Most of these people actually seem to be offended by the mere notion of having to pay monthly. They perceive it as a money grab, greed, that sort of stuff.
4. And what you need to understand is that it doesn't matter if they are right or wrong. They are the consumer base CCP needs to survive, whether they like it or not.
5. So they need to appeal to a consumer base that does not want to pay monthly..

blablablabla


1. If so they are worthless and nobody needs em anyway in the first place, isnt it?
2. Same as above
3. And again, no. 1
4. No we dont, and they are not, because of what you wrote in point 1, they wont pay anyway, so no fucks given eh?
5. No they dont, its like giving blind man a plasma TV , waste of time

Whoever cant afford to pay 15bucks a month is probably unemployed homeless anyway. If he/she on the other hand doesnt want to willingly i see no point in allowing them free access no matter how restricted, its like throwing pearls to swine.


Wow! Just wow.
I am not going to even try to point out how appalling a human being you have just made yourself out to be.
I hope it is an error in translation or a mistake. I cannot believe that anyone would actually say what I just read.

But Wow.

Edit: we should be thankful that CCP value people as human beings.
I think we might be wise to take notice of Their judgement.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#1000 - 2016-09-01 21:40:46 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

As for t2, are we still beating the dead horse of "but you can't play eve without a trillion SP" Really. In FW lots of people use t1. I use t1 for plenty of things.


I'm not asking for a trillion SP and titans. I'm saying that flying a pulse ship without Scorch or an AC ship without Barrage is silly. These are literally going to be pay to win golden ammos.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.