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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2016-08-31 16:19:36 UTC
I have one question.

What will be done to prevent free accounts being used to flood chat with gold spamming and used for RMT?

This is my greatest concern. My sub expires in a couple of hours, and it will remain that way pending the biomass of all toons on it come the November expansion if a satisfactory explanation of how this will be stopped is not provided, which will make this my last post ever without said answer.

When SWTOR went F2P, this was literally the first thing that happened. F2P accounts botting on starter worlds to hit lvl 10 so they could go to fleet and spam chat with their gold selling websites. They're doing it right now, I'm gearing a Shadow and every minute or two, a new message from someone with a name that's basically the equivalent of mashing the keyboard (ie jbgfr or some such) advertises their RMT website with an exchange rate. And it's not just one or two or three, it's a dozen. And it doesn't matter if you report them, because they just create a new Gmail account and presto, new free toon ready to spam away to replace the one they lost.

Tell me how you'll prevent this, please. Because if I log on in November and see even one RMT ad in chat in any system, I swear I'm done.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#202 - 2016-08-31 16:19:52 UTC
Nina Reis wrote:

I See one issue :
- the SP trade market
Now :
- Sp are quite expense because you have to train a character (or to strip an old one) to 5m SP before it became profitable (plex => extractor => injector for sale)

Then
- It's free pour every single player to skill a character up to 5m and directly start selling its SP
Consequences
- The SP value (injector) will drop to near ''0''

Solution

- Increase the gap between alpha clone and the SP amount needed to extract SPs, for at least 2.5m SP (2 plex with poor remap and bad implant)


CCP Hates any form of "Passive" income, even if its something players have to invest trillions into and still give up dedicated time and management. My point with that statement is that perhaps this mode is partially a plus to them because it will do what you say. It will kill the SP farming market. That market was/would have died anyhow, but this change COULD see it happen slightly quicker but ONLY if new players take it up as an option. I see players who have been here for 10 years not taking the smart option, so Its hard for me to think i'll see some of these players picking it out early days.
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
#203 - 2016-08-31 16:20:42 UTC
...............Ohhhhh boy. This will be INTRESTING!

I wont say EVE is dead. But im not sure what im gonna say about this...

I belive that its great to give people who want to try and put some time into the game. But dont have the money or time to fully dedicate themselves to the game. But there is the thing that people will try to abuse this that kinda makes me worried. you are taking a bit risk CCP. But I shall trust in your judgement on this one.
Drammie Askold
Hideaway Hunters
The Hideaway.
#204 - 2016-08-31 16:21:03 UTC
I am cautiously optimistic and I hope this leads to more people playing Eve.

As the blessed St. Reptilicus said "Some days you can't get a drink on the cuff anyplace."

Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2016-08-31 16:21:13 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
Restricting skill extractors shouldn't be an issue, since you need 5.5m sp on a character to use one to begin with. As long as the Alpha clones can't reach that level of sp, skill extractors are moot.
An Alpha can reach more than 5.5m SP by spending a little bit of time as an Omega. Once over 5.5m SP, the Alpha could then train and extract Alpha skills over and over, so limiting Extractions is still needed.
cyonida
#206 - 2016-08-31 16:21:16 UTC  |  Edited by: cyonida
Quote:

Q: Won’t suicide ganking using free characters be a major problem?

A: We don’t think clone states will have much impact on suicide ganking or other harassment in high-sec. But, we will be paying very close attention and if this becomes an issue we can pursue options to improve the situation such as turning safety’s on for Alphas in high sec or making changes to the allowed skills list.

Well, with Gallente Destroyer 4, Small Hybrid Turret 4, Weapon Upgrades 4; why would people not make an army of disposable suicide gank catalysts? When your sec status gets too low, toss them and make more.

I think this is going to be a huge problem. Suicide ganking in high sec is way too easy as it is.

The message I'm getting from CCP is this: don't fly a freighter, mining barge, or any kind of industrial ship in high sec. Suddenly high sec is now the most dangerous place to be.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#207 - 2016-08-31 16:22:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
You poor poor people don't understand what this means. You don't see the REAL CASUALTY of this terrible move by CCP.

What is going to happen to all the "I Quit" posts?

"I quit" from a game you pay 15 bucks a month for has really power to change the course of CCPs development direction (15 bucks is a lot of money in places like Zimbabwe and Borneo), but "I'm quitting this free to play game that I never paid for in the 1st place" just doesn't have the same implied threat power!

Won't someone think of the (brain damaged, manipulative) children here????


Twisted

They will just become "unsubbing" posts. Most are already anyway.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Aven Yassavi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#208 - 2016-08-31 16:22:32 UTC
So since a lot people buying plex to get skill injectors why not make them buy them directly for real money and get rid of the subcription. People may say that is pay to win but even a full skilled noob is not much better then a unskilled veteran!
Dixegu Smith
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2016-08-31 16:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dixegu Smith
The whole release looks very good, im really looking forward to it - most abuses seem to have been thought of and already eliminated in first place.

The unlimited time now enables newcomers to test eve without stress and get involved into corps & communities and i think this is a big big step for bringing eve more into the market. I love it.

But after reading very carefully and looking through your set of skills you make available i didnt seem to find a barrier for Industry toons.

Sure they are not as fast as a maxed out toon but they are able to research, copy & manufacture. Even if in small and slower scale than a normal industry player would.

Lets face it, it's EvE, people WILL do what is most efficent. And from what i see right now it is efficent to use free Alpha accounts for industry rather than one plexed account.

If this goes on the live server without a limitatation, a few people will start using Alpha accounts for it. Probably more than just a few, and this will trigger a wave of more and more industrialists jumping on that train because you can't compete with the prices of an Alpha account.

Sure, you can't produce everything because some stuff requires omega skills. Yet it will still cause this wave of "Alpha-Accounts creating low-tech stuff"".

It would be great to let newcomers see the sweet juice of industry aswell..so completly removing that isn't the right solution too. But I'm not here to offer a solution im only here to mention a problem that has to be mentioned sooner or later.
Cheers

Edit: Please tell me that I'm wrong somewhere and this won't happen
Threm
Funatix Sanctuary
Funatix
#210 - 2016-08-31 16:24:18 UTC
Looking from above it is necessary to get EVE closer to the current market conditions. The proposal is a good balance not to hurt current players but hopefully drag new ones into it.

Basically it is just a never ending trial period with an overhauled skill restriction list.

Many complaints are about possible multi boxing on gankers and 10 miners. How is it possible to multibox 10 ventures without bannable software tools? And if, how long you will take it :) ... If you want to multibox so many low level chars without any forbidden and bannable software support, ok, but I would not think that is the general opinion.

Gankers are something else. Not really in the manner to multibox them (same argument above, it is already bannable) but in creating new ones. I like proposal to set them to green safety in highsec and would continue to yellow in lowsec and to red to anywhere else because otherwise you would restrict them to be in highsec which is too strict for real new players.
But I dont know this is compromissed by the general reluctance of CCP to take significant measures against ganking at all.

To the login restriction.I would only go for a limit of one Alpha independent on the number of Omega log ins. In other words no two Alphas log in possible if you think that is critical but is possible to login an alpha parallel to the currently running Omegas. It is only annoying to log the Omegas off without impact on game play.

PS. You confused me with that statement in the beginning:
"With this technology, clone manufacturers can now build and distribute clones which possess a base state, the Alpha state. They can be enhanced or otherwise altered to achieve other states, but the Alpha state will always exist underneath. The state of a given clone may affect its access to trained skills, its ability to train new ones, or the rate at which new skills are acquired."
It confused with that player may produce clones (not the case), that the player have to enhance to other states (actually they just pay and there is only on other state or do u have plans for the variety of greek between alpha and omega? :)) and it will (not may) affect the skills.
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#211 - 2016-08-31 16:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Max Trix
Quote:
7. Discussion of real life religion and politics is prohibited.

Discussion of real life religion and politics is strictly prohibited on the EVE Online forums. Discussions of this nature often creates animosity between forum users due to real life political or military conflicts. CCP promotes the growth of a gaming community where equality is at the forefront. Nationalist, religious or political affiliations are not part of EVE Online, and should not be part of discussion on the EVE Online forums.


Post removed for above reason and a quitting post

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.

Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
#212 - 2016-08-31 16:25:38 UTC
Can Alphas use the forum?
Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
#213 - 2016-08-31 16:26:27 UTC
Two questions I forgot:

*) now that we're going to have unlimited trials who can use Mining Frigates, Trade, Industry (thank god no PI any more), what is your stance again with Virtual Machines and VPN? Just to remind the masses.
*) What about players who trained PI skills? Are they still able to use their pre-built colonies? Because the thing is, every person can already plant down one Command center on one planet, as Interplanetary consolidation allows for a total of SIX planets when fully skilled, not one. And it's one tiny command center, yeah. But still, if everything is prebuilt, do you have a system in place which determines what is the "first" colony, or will you select it at random?

>> Zappity: PI skills are not included in the alpha list in the devblog.
You can still create 1 colony with a level 0 command center by default. Maybe enough to fool the code for pre-existing colonies.

>> Zifrian: Ganking. you gotta nip this in the bud now. I say lock them into green agression. You simply can't attack someone without them aggressions you first.
That's an idea worth pondering, but it also impedes the sandbox spirit so I doubt they'll be going there.
I don't want to cover the subject of gankers circumventing timers with just a simple relog to a large selection of trial accounts, because they've could have done that already if they wanted and just re-train, if that even was worth while. Which I doubt.
Now it would be just more of a convenience as the retraining falls flat.
But to be honest, gankers aren't the problem. Uninformed players are what give them targets.
Note, I do not endorse or condemn ganking. If it happens, then usually only because someone made themselves a target, unwilling or not.

>> Reinhardt Kreiss: F2P... it's here. An MMO switching to F2P indicates its decline and departure from a long term commitment to a short term cash grab.
Wrong. There are games out there who only survived this long because of the move to F2P. Many players have loose wallets and many microtransactions are just that. They appear micro per payment, but many don't actually see that adding up.
Hell just look at what people pay for starbucks and cigarettes and booze.


>> JTK Fotheringham: Serious question - how will "Alpha" accounts be treated in purges? Say an alpha account never subscribes, or only subs once - never to generate cash again. Will it be purged at some point in the future?[/quote]
Was there ever a purge? I only remember they freed up names and put "Faction Citizen #######" instead. I still have a link to my original trial character from end of 2006. It's just the name that is different.


>> Valterra Craven]In alpha states I don't think you should be able to set up sell orders at all.
If your only outlook is to punish actual new players simply because alts of veterans could be used to gain a marginally small advantage (as idle time is still a thing), then they shouldn't have come up with a skill system like this, plain and simple.
Also, what you talk about is utter nonsense. People could have (and maybe have?) done that with regular trials anyway. So what is the problem again? The real world difference is nil.


>> Elenahina: Without the cost of PLEX to consider, I can undercut my competition and flood the market, further depressing prices on these goods.
How much below reprocessing value are you aiming to go for? Because this is what it will come down to. It's not about having no competition or undercutting everyone, it's about having the same prices everywhere then. Look at other games with open item or currency exchanges like that. If enough players access it, the price levels itself to the equilibrium. The natural selection of those who are persistent enough over the ones who aren't is what has kept the eve economy going, and will let it continue after these changes.
This doesn't mean your concerns are invalid. They are valid. How much impact this will be having is another question entirely. Because someone is going to get tired eventually of trying to run all the things. Knowing when to cut branches of a tree to help it grow better is important to not kill it by cutting too much.

>> Valterra Craven: Wait, now I'm curious, if people are leaving Eve because they can't pay for it, what exactly is the purpose of wanting to keep people playing that have no money to give to you?
People don't leave because they can't pay for it. People just decide not to pay any more because they deem the investment not worth. If they still can be in the 3D chat simulator despite not paying, then by all means, let them.
In addition to this, every player who remains in the game, is a possible compulsive buyer for microtransactions. Each player is still a variable in possible interactions and content creation.
Plus, you are much likely to resub if you're still IN the game with all the fruit dangling just out of your reach, than when you made the final quit.
In terms of marketing, it's a solid idea. Let's just try to keep the abuse either minimalistic, and/or paint the stars with the blood of dime and a dozen additional players who just want to hassle with their inferior skills.

>> Darkwing Fiftytwo: What about limiting system access to high-sec or high/lo-sec?? Is that a good or bad idea?
Outrageously horrendous idea. If you get teased with massive fleet battles and enter the game due to this premise, and then realize you can't go there until you pay? Instant turnoff, marketing suicide. The best way to get new players to enjoy the fighting side of eve is to put them as soon as possible into this desired direction.

Drazz's funny moment wrote:
Account based skills. Let's start with "Prioritized Biomassing" - each level of this skill reduces the time to biomass your character by 5 hours. Inb4 Advanced prioritized biomassing Lol
Black Canary Jnr
Higher Than Everest
#214 - 2016-08-31 16:26:46 UTC
Talking about this in corp everyone is positive on it.

One request; Ensure 'Alpha clones' follow the same procedures as current Trial accounts, ie. You cannot have a trial and a subbed account online at the same time, or 2 trial accounts. Reasoning is that people will abuse the functionality with throw away scouts for mains, and fears of people just making several throwaway accounts to multibox gank/ PVP. By not changing anything it can't be broke further and i have not seen any issues with the way it is currently run.

Great change, looking forward to seeing how it plays out.
Aven Yassavi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#215 - 2016-08-31 16:26:51 UTC
Gneeznow wrote:
Can Alphas use the forum?


I am pretty sure yes, since they have an account
Maetel Lithium
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2016-08-31 16:27:05 UTC
There is so much to think about here.

Firstly, I would allow SOME multi-boxing. Max it out at 3-5 Alpha accounts and you will get some nice support and scout fleets going, but not so much as to threaten a propperly tanked mining barge.

This is going to impact faction warfare and nullsec fleets significantly. And it will make recon tactics ridiculous.
I can see myself setting up a bucket full of alts that just camp enemy systems. Nullbears will never mine again.

I am aslo considering what this will mean for spais. I could have tons of free accounts I could join and participate in almost every major alliance for a year and no one would be the wiser.

I overall look forward to this change, but CCP will need more moderators andGMS.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#217 - 2016-08-31 16:27:24 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Irregessa wrote:
Restricting skill extractors shouldn't be an issue, since you need 5.5m sp on a character to use one to begin with. As long as the Alpha clones can't reach that level of sp, skill extractors are moot.
An Alpha can reach more than 5.5m SP by spending a little bit of time as an Omega. Once over 5.5m SP, the Alpha could then train and extract Alpha skills over and over, so limiting Extractions is still needed.

So you extract those 500k SP and the training is paused again, cause you are back to 5M. Would you plex it again just to extract another 500k? Doesn't sound viable at all. Also, they said they would limit the Alpha skills so you can't extract them.

The real issue with these things is still the multiboxing issue.
Verse Askold
Bedtime Stories
#218 - 2016-08-31 16:28:47 UTC
i think that is a good thing, brings new blood into eve and old blood back who just want to taste blood again for free
and i really think that a lot more of the newbros will stay after they invested some time to get up to 5mill SP and subscribe

Alpha corps will be a thing for sure, i already see corps coming like Alpha-Testies, Pandemic Alpha Squad or Alphaswarm ;)

and i agree that there should definitely be a reduction for the logon of alphas to 1 per client otherwise this will be abused as mentioned in a lot of posts before

i would go even further and introduce an alpha, a gamma and an omega clone
the gamma would be something like half the subscription(1plex for 2months) and therefore you activate all the other races(or 1more, idk) and T2 ships up to T2 cruisers + all modules up to and including medium size
but this would probably cost ccp too much money in the end through people not flying anything bigger than cruisers just go to gamma clones

but all in all this is a good idea imho
Niraad Khaaz
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#219 - 2016-08-31 16:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Niraad Khaaz
I like it CCP! It will take some tweaking to make sure that "Alpha abuse" is minimized as much as possible but overall it's solid. The more newbros/gals in the game the better. Of course when the "Alpha Alliance" sweeps through New Eden destroying all in it's path I might feel differently. P
Colonel Ingus
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#220 - 2016-08-31 16:32:28 UTC
So trial accounts are no longer time limited? Big deal.

Call them trial accounts.

Restrict ONE "alpha" / trial account per IP

Restrict to Yellow safety - (prevent them from aggressing / griefing in empire)


If you're trying to LURE new subscribers, you want them to be able to explore gameplay, but not be stuck with consequences of skill selection, or experience a loss that was the totality of their assets in game. (how many folks invested skills into industry, mining, only to leave that all behind for glorious null sec, or got scared to go to null because they lost their first ship not knowing the mechanics of the game)?

Why not grant them skills to fly ALL racial cruisers / below, and institute a redemption system where you provide a properly fitted ship, which can be "traded" for another flavor. Try it before you buy it. No freebies / just a loan (similar to SRP) Think of it as basic fitting 101 - you have latitude to create a VERY rich system to introduce new players to properly fitted (and skilled) ships for a specific role, and the opportunity to learn about fitting / insuring / etc.

ALLOW them to shift accumulated skills towards that specific ship / role, and provide the appropriate fitted ship.
-try mining
-try industry
-try PVE
-try PVP
-try logistics
-try ganging /griefing (but not in empire)

Do all of this without monetizing the system, prevent an unbalanced gank/grief/economy crushing change, and provide an EASY way to get NEW folks into EVE - WIN.

Find a way to get those new guys to join the EVE community AND get them to subscribe - Sustainable CCP Development for years to come.