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[September] Mining Barge and Exhumer tweaks

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#101 - 2016-08-23 21:11:09 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Thread full of angry miners, honestly who's shocked.


Grath, baby. Sweetheart. Jewel.


It's time to update your sig.



Not until somebody else is more wrong than you, thats the rule. The mong before you actually sent me a mail that said "finally" when i took his wrongness down.

Dont worry though, I've got some rubes lined up right now spouting some terrible wrong crap, there might be a light at the end of the tunnel



K well I suppose in an infinite universe, someone, somewhere will be undocking a slowcat fleet.

You cling to that, sugarcakes.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Shoppaholic
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2016-08-23 22:10:32 UTC
Looking on Sisi at Hulk with max skills and rorq boosts and T2 implant, no Michi (yet, although we will come to that)

A Hulk with 2 T2 lasers and T2 crystals and 3 T2 MLUs

Yield

Each laser pulls 1924m3 per cycle, with a cycle time of 59.7 secs
This is an increase of 7.7% - this is a good thing for miners

Cargo

I mine with multiple chars, however this new arrangement is an issue

Previously, 2 cycles with hulks only just fits in the ore hold, nicely it might be said (there was a period where sporadic proccing made this overflow and was annoying, not the case at the moment)

Now with 2 cycles, there is plenty of room, but a 3rd cycle is out of the question, making multi-char mining quicker, which isnt a good thing, stuff we used to do in 141.6 secs now has to be done in 119.4 secs

I have avoided the Michi implant because of this nicely fit 2 cycle routine, but the new setup will allow the use of this, it doesnt mean i am not against the cycle time change

Fitting

I found with my regular fits, I was 6 CPU short compared to previous fits, possibly can work around with implant, but I had a char that had it fit nicely (had ore survey instead of hardener) - i can work with this

Range

No change

Image

I quite like the new animation of the industrial and units deplying and retracting during warp, also the fire and smoke venting seems more apparent. When I first saw it, it looked like it was chugging like a steam train

Bottom line - I like what has been done, however im concerned the cycle time change is going to be an annoyance based on the currently available ore hold. If it allowed a 3rd cycle then great, but currently max mining (minus michi) fits in the 8500m3 available after 2 cycles
Shoppaholic
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2016-08-23 22:20:12 UTC
Numerus Muvila wrote:
This new Hulk is not good at all i have no Ore hold and that littel tank i had you take away for 8k m³ more in 1h?

Right now i have this Stats with zero Boost and 5% Imp

3684m³ 122,4sec 108352,94m³


With 3 mlu´s ,5%imp and zero Boost i have this stats

3328m³ 103,3sec 115980,63m³

thats are 7627,69m³ more but i have to turn off 1 midslot and noway i can turn him on.

I already a papertank why you have to **** the hulk more?

Skiff has Tank
Mack has Orehold
Hulk has ?

#givemycpuback


Hulk has always been a fleet miner, with boosts where available. I have no issues with tanking on my char that can fit the extra MLU with no other changes, and gains yield in the process
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#104 - 2016-08-23 22:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriam Khanid
2 years ago (Kronos?/july 2014) you add ''strip miner yield and ice harvester cycle time role bonuses'' to barges and exhumers.
Now you are removing them. Why?!
xXxNIMRODxXx
Arial Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#105 - 2016-08-23 22:26:24 UTC  |  Edited by: xXxNIMRODxXx
Shoppaholic wrote:
Numerus Muvila wrote:
This new Hulk is not good at all i have no Ore hold and that littel tank i had you take away for 8k m³ more in 1h?

Right now i have this Stats with zero Boost and 5% Imp

3684m³ 122,4sec 108352,94m³


With 3 mlu´s ,5%imp and zero Boost i have this stats

3328m³ 103,3sec 115980,63m³

thats are 7627,69m³ more but i have to turn off 1 midslot and noway i can turn him on.

I already a papertank why you have to **** the hulk more?

Skiff has Tank
Mack has Orehold
Hulk has ?

#givemycpuback


Hulk has always been a fleet miner, with boosts where available. I have no issues with tanking on my char that can fit the extra MLU with no other changes, and gains yield in the process

I take it you mine in hisec.
Rats in nulls sec do hit pretty differently. Using a survey scanner is out of the way. You want tank, yield and be able to gtfo when baddies are around and that's all (because that's basically all you can do). My hulk on SiSi is 9 CPU short with 3 MLUs, plus with a 59.7 cycle time, it really becomes an olimpionic race to handle alts after a certain amount.

Edit:.. but we don't know yet what's it going to be with the new Rorqual, so to stick with an Orca boost just to avoid a "grey zone", you have a slightly better cycle time than an actual Rorqual (that on TQ) but less yield.
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#106 - 2016-08-23 22:36:09 UTC
Uriam Khanid wrote:
2 years ago (Kronos?/july 2014) you add ''strip miner yield and ice harvester cycle time role bonuses'' to barges and exhumers.
Now you are removing them. Why?!



CCP Fozzie wrote:
As part of this change we are increasing the yield of all barge-sized strip miners and ice harvesters, which cancels out the changes to hardpoints and bonuses on the Barges and Exhumers
Shoppaholic
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2016-08-23 22:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Shoppaholic
xXxNIMRODxXx wrote:
Shoppaholic wrote:
Numerus Muvila wrote:
This new Hulk is not good at all i have no Ore hold and that littel tank i had you take away for 8k m³ more in 1h?

Right now i have this Stats with zero Boost and 5% Imp

3684m³ 122,4sec 108352,94m³


With 3 mlu´s ,5%imp and zero Boost i have this stats

3328m³ 103,3sec 115980,63m³

thats are 7627,69m³ more but i have to turn off 1 midslot and noway i can turn him on.

I already a papertank why you have to **** the hulk more?

Skiff has Tank
Mack has Orehold
Hulk has ?

#givemycpuback


Hulk has always been a fleet miner, with boosts where available. I have no issues with tanking on my char that can fit the extra MLU with no other changes, and gains yield in the process

I take it you mine in hisec.
Rats in nulls sec do hit pretty differently. Using a survey scanner is out of the way. You want tank, yield and be able to gtfo when baddies are around and that's all (because that's basically all you can do). My hulk on SiSi is 9 CPU short with 3 MLUs, plus with a 59.7 cycle time, it really becomes an olimpionic race to handle alts after a certain amount.


Nope, null sec mining, however i mine with multiple chars, and sometimes with others. Rats never an issue. But yes, the lower cycle time is one aspect I dont look forward to. See previous post for extra details

Ive gone back and forth with the number of alts, after taking a hiatus, im at a lower number for now, we shall see :)

(your edit) cant really add another variable into it just yet, this is the upcoming barge changes, not rorqual changes. comparing old to new on the barge front)
xXxNIMRODxXx
Arial Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#108 - 2016-08-23 22:45:11 UTC
Shoppaholic wrote:
xXxNIMRODxXx wrote:
Shoppaholic wrote:
Numerus Muvila wrote:
This new Hulk is not good at all i have no Ore hold and that littel tank i had you take away for 8k m³ more in 1h?

Right now i have this Stats with zero Boost and 5% Imp

3684m³ 122,4sec 108352,94m³


With 3 mlu´s ,5%imp and zero Boost i have this stats

3328m³ 103,3sec 115980,63m³

thats are 7627,69m³ more but i have to turn off 1 midslot and noway i can turn him on.

I already a papertank why you have to **** the hulk more?

Skiff has Tank
Mack has Orehold
Hulk has ?

#givemycpuback


Hulk has always been a fleet miner, with boosts where available. I have no issues with tanking on my char that can fit the extra MLU with no other changes, and gains yield in the process

I take it you mine in hisec.
Rats in nulls sec do hit pretty differently. Using a survey scanner is out of the way. You want tank, yield and be able to gtfo when baddies are around and that's all (because that's basically all you can do). My hulk on SiSi is 9 CPU short with 3 MLUs, plus with a 59.7 cycle time, it really becomes an olimpionic race to handle alts after a certain amount.


Nope, null sec mining, however i mine with multiple chars, and sometimes with others. Rats never an issue. But yes, the lower cycle time is one aspect I dont look forward to. See previous post for extra details

Ive gone back and forth with the number of alts, after taking a hiatus, im at a lower number for now, we shall see :)

(your edit) cant really add another variable into it just yet, this is the upcoming barge changes, not rorqual changes. comparing old to new on the barge front)

There are rats that hit harder than others and to withstand the dps you need to go blinky sometimes, I think you know this. Otherwise it becomes a constant warping in and out, which is really annoying.
The Hulk is already a work-intensive ship, but these changes it becomes less tanky and even more job-intensive with a Rorq boost (for which future we are like Jon Snow...we know nothing)
Shoppaholic
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2016-08-23 22:50:46 UTC
xXxNIMRODxXx wrote:
Shoppaholic wrote:
xXxNIMRODxXx wrote:
Shoppaholic wrote:
Numerus Muvila wrote:
This new Hulk is not good at all i have no Ore hold and that littel tank i had you take away for 8k m³ more in 1h?

Right now i have this Stats with zero Boost and 5% Imp

3684m³ 122,4sec 108352,94m³


With 3 mlu´s ,5%imp and zero Boost i have this stats

3328m³ 103,3sec 115980,63m³

thats are 7627,69m³ more but i have to turn off 1 midslot and noway i can turn him on.

I already a papertank why you have to **** the hulk more?

Skiff has Tank
Mack has Orehold
Hulk has ?

#givemycpuback


Hulk has always been a fleet miner, with boosts where available. I have no issues with tanking on my char that can fit the extra MLU with no other changes, and gains yield in the process

I take it you mine in hisec.
Rats in nulls sec do hit pretty differently. Using a survey scanner is out of the way. You want tank, yield and be able to gtfo when baddies are around and that's all (because that's basically all you can do). My hulk on SiSi is 9 CPU short with 3 MLUs, plus with a 59.7 cycle time, it really becomes an olimpionic race to handle alts after a certain amount.


Nope, null sec mining, however i mine with multiple chars, and sometimes with others. Rats never an issue. But yes, the lower cycle time is one aspect I dont look forward to. See previous post for extra details

Ive gone back and forth with the number of alts, after taking a hiatus, im at a lower number for now, we shall see :)

(your edit) cant really add another variable into it just yet, this is the upcoming barge changes, not rorqual changes. comparing old to new on the barge front)

There are rats that hit harder than others and to withstand the dps you need to go blinky sometimes, I think you know this. Otherwise it becomes a constant warping in and out, which is really annoying.
The Hulk is already a work-intensive ship, but these changes it becomes less tanky and even more job-intensive with a Rorq boost (for which future we are like Jon Snow...we know nothing)


Seeing others nearby try to mine... I understand where you are coming from. Im just saying I dont have that issue. I may not be in deep null but I still get double or even triple BS spawns that seem tough, but they switch target quickly enough for it not to be an issue, and my current tank can deal with what they put out. My Rorq pilot might have shield bonuses too, but thats all part of my fleet setup

Currently my issue is with the cycle time versus cargo space, as there doesnt seem to be much synergy there. Max everything out except the Michi implant and you have 8472 after 2 cycles (convenient with a 8500 cargo space)
Grognard Commissar
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#110 - 2016-08-23 23:16:16 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
I am actually surprised that the retriever and mackinaw are in the top spot with the skiff and the procurer all the way down towards the lower end. I would be interested to see figures on for instance, how much time is spent in space in the various barges rather than ore mined. I expect the top ships are used in highly optimised fleet mining setups which skew the usage results.

All in all though at a glance the changes look good and the new barge artwork looks great. Good job.

two words: ice mining
Grognard Commissar
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#111 - 2016-08-24 00:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Grognard Commissar
FT Cold wrote:



Under the correct circumstances it is possible to make a profit ganking barges, however is is absolutely minimal and not the primary motivation for gankers. I think it would fit the central themes of EVE better to shift that from trolling to reasons of economics.


the problem is that they don't NEED to make a profit, because CODE. gets money dumped on them by people. also, goonswarm. people kill miners just to kill things. don't care bout profit usually
baltec1 wrote:


A hellstorm of outrage is heading your way. I'm getting abuse just for asking for the skiff to get its tank from actually fitting the ship rather than having CCP bake it into the hull.


so... you want to give skiffs like 6 mid slots, and the cpu and pg to go with it? otherwise, you'll nerf it to the point where it is pointless.
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#112 - 2016-08-24 00:06:36 UTC
Nice changes. Can't wait for them to go live.


Btw, the community doesn't disappoint. Lol

The one constant in this game is players complaining; about changes or the lack of. Changes that force them to change their game play or changes that make their detested gameplay too easy for the lame ones who enjoy it.

Don't get me wrong, I do think we should be able to give feedback, its just that some take this all a bit too serious at times.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2016-08-24 00:11:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


skiff and procuror:

Overtanked for their class (battleship base tank on a cruiser sized hull) means they effectively invalidate the other 4 barges.



I can fly a proteus on this account, and a skiff on one of my old ones, quite sure that the proteus can field a larger buffer and there is no comparison at all to the active tank.

ie you are campaigning to nerf what is probably no more than the 5th largest cruiser tank.

My experiences with the proc says that a proper proc has a midrack full of tackle and is hull tanked, ie it needs the stats its been given to do its true role, and generally both yield AND dps are traded off to achieve tackle with the tank moved more to hull.

Unless _mining_ is changed, imo the hulls are basically fit for purpose.
Grognard Commissar
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2016-08-24 00:22:15 UTC
Coralas wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


skiff and procuror:

Overtanked for their class (battleship base tank on a cruiser sized hull) means they effectively invalidate the other 4 barges.



I can fly a proteus on this account, and a skiff on one of my old ones, quite sure that the proteus can field a larger buffer and there is no comparison at all to the active tank.

ie you are campaigning to nerf what is probably no more than the 5th largest cruiser tank.

My experiences with the proc says that a proper proc has a midrack full of tackle and is hull tanked, ie it needs the stats its been given to do its true role, and generally both yield AND dps are traded off to achieve tackle with the tank moved more to hull.

Unless _mining_ is changed, imo the hulls are basically fit for purpose.

i think he just wnats to gank more miners
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2016-08-24 00:24:10 UTC
Grognard Commissar wrote:
FT Cold wrote:



Under the correct circumstances it is possible to make a profit ganking barges, however is is absolutely minimal and not the primary motivation for gankers. I think it would fit the central themes of EVE better to shift that from trolling to reasons of economics.


the problem is that they don't NEED to make a profit, because CODE. gets money dumped on them by people. also, goonswarm. people kill miners just to kill things. don't care bout profit usually


It's not a problem that people will do things without profit motive and it's unrelated to my point. What I'm saying is that people who fly mining barges who sit afk and don't make use of widely available fitting resources should have a proportionately high risk of losing their ship. People who take the initiative and create content should be rewarded and thus should be entitled to profit on the ignorance or laziness of other players. That's game play. You win by knowing more, paying attention, and reacting faster than your opponent.

As it stands now, miners have very few choices, and if you go back a few pages and read my original post, there are a list of proposals that would give miners a variety of new play styles and reward them for being active, diligent, and intelligent about their decisions.

Read this post:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=491023&find=unread
It affirms CCP's commitment to the core attributes of this game.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#116 - 2016-08-24 00:36:03 UTC
Grognard Commissar wrote:


so... you want to give skiffs like 6 mid slots, and the cpu and pg to go with it? otherwise, you'll nerf it to the point where it is pointless.


I want the skiff to have a similar slot layout to a HACs and the cpu and powergrid to go with that. Same goes for the other exhumers and the barges to be similar to cruiser in terms of slots, cpu and powergrid.

This is the third attempt by CCP to balance barges under the tank, ore hold, yield mantra and it just isn't working.
Autism Intensifies
some random local shitlords
#117 - 2016-08-24 00:51:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Grognard Commissar wrote:


so... you want to give skiffs like 6 mid slots, and the cpu and pg to go with it? otherwise, you'll nerf it to the point where it is pointless.


I want the skiff to have a similar slot layout to a HACs and the cpu and powergrid to go with that. Same goes for the other exhumers and the barges to be similar to cruiser in terms of slots, cpu and powergrid.

This is the third attempt by CCP to balance barges under the tank, ore hold, yield mantra and it just isn't working.



I'd love to see fitting choices on Exhumers / Barges. But with the frigate-fitting room, it's pretty much predefined what you can achieve.
What is CCP afraid of if barges were to get ~800 pg and increase stripminer PG req to make it hard to fit max tank and full strips?
Alicia Dnari
Dnari Mining and Manufacturing
#118 - 2016-08-24 00:53:59 UTC
Pretty new designs, thank you. But explain something I've never understood, please: what is up with the smoke-generating open flames on mining ships? In space? Is space in New Eden filled with oxygen? It's just wierd. :-)
Autism Intensifies
some random local shitlords
#119 - 2016-08-24 01:05:37 UTC
Alicia Dnari wrote:
Pretty new designs, thank you. But explain something I've never understood, please: what is up with the smoke-generating open flames on mining ships? In space? Is space in New Eden filled with oxygen? It's just wierd. :-)


As long as there's an oxidant available inside of the ship, there can very well be fire in space. Doesn't have to be oxygen itself, but could be something that's in the ore, gets ignited during some weird space magic, and gets extinguished by opening an airlock. Tadaaa, flames in space.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2016-08-24 01:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Coralas
FT Cold wrote:
Grognard Commissar wrote:
FT Cold wrote:



Under the correct circumstances it is possible to make a profit ganking barges, however is is absolutely minimal and not the primary motivation for gankers. I think it would fit the central themes of EVE better to shift that from trolling to reasons of economics.


the problem is that they don't NEED to make a profit, because CODE. gets money dumped on them by people. also, goonswarm. people kill miners just to kill things. don't care bout profit usually


It's not a problem that people will do things without profit motive and it's unrelated to my point. What I'm saying is that people who fly mining barges who sit afk and don't make use of widely available fitting resources should have a proportionately high risk of losing their ship.



The choice of a skiff is a fitting choice.

Removing an LSE worth of hitpoints and putting a slot for the LSE isn't going to change anything, the people that chose a skiff, chose it for the tank.

The entire rest of the game has absurd microspecialization for cruisers, which enables a target caller to recognize the role of the ship he is calling out to shoot next. If you go outside the role, you get a relatively weak fit as a trade off for the surprise.

ie in the current scenario there are 5 hulks and 1 skiff in the belt, depending on what you _brought_ to attack them with, will dictate your strategy.

In the baltec scenario, there are 6 generic exhumers in the belt, that you can't tell apart without them sitting there long enough for you to shipscan all of them. IMO thats entirely against the way that the rest of EVE is designed, and dull because it promotes only 1 strategy - always bring enough firepower to kill a generic exhumer that is fully tanked.