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So, Barge Info?
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Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2016-08-20 11:20:14 UTC
Literally just edited my other post :/ See edit.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#282 - 2016-08-20 11:40:44 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Literally just edited my other post :/ See edit.


Fair enough.
Solecist Project
#283 - 2016-08-20 11:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Kenrailae wrote:

No, we shouldn't just throw more shiny at it because people aren't doing basic things to ensure a margin of some sort of security. Because again, it will have the snowball effect we've seen with every other change to mining barges and ganking in that now its messed up for this reason and it's not good enough so has to be better. Making them versatile platforms with HAC sized tanks and bigger bays and drone bays and more slots and fittings doesn't specifically fix them. It just makes them different.


I'll just cut this short here.

You are both right.

Ken, what you are missing is the high possibility of a cultural shift away from victimhood.

The current situation is that miners are being told to use skiffs, else they'd get ganked.
There wasa time not too long ago, when it wasn't the case like this.
In the time between, a shift occurred, that changed the landscape and the barges themselves.

People everywhere say "use a skiff or you'll get ganked".
If this had been the case years ago, Hulkaggeddon wouldn't ever have been a thing.


Changing the theme of barges from "ship of a potential victim" to "self reliable mining vessel"* ... (*whatever :P)
... plus designing it in a way that makes it useful for actual combat instead of victimhood ...
... would as well, again, cause a shift.


People would talk differently about mining ships.
They would brag about leet kills they made in a hulk. (i foresee "HULK SMASH!!" usage increasing)
They would spread the feeling that these ships actually mirror self reliance instead of dependency.

People would teach not anymore about just fitting tank and hoping the best just because it's the least effort to do so.
They would start teaching about self defence. Tactics. How to stay safe.
They would have actual topics with future miners who will want to be miners with teeth. (doable!)

Now you might say "what about those who want to play afk?" ?

Well, what about them? They'll slowly, but definitely, get replaced by a superior generation of miners, of course.

And that's how it should be, because ...
... afk, even semi-afk, is not a playstyle.

Balancing ships around people who are not playing isn't really a sensible thing to do.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2016-08-20 11:52:32 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:

No, we shouldn't just throw more shiny at it because people aren't doing basic things to ensure a margin of some sort of security. Because again, it will have the snowball effect we've seen with every other change to mining barges and ganking in that now its messed up for this reason and it's not good enough so has to be better. Making them versatile platforms with HAC sized tanks and bigger bays and drone bays and more slots and fittings doesn't specifically fix them. It just makes them different.


I'll just cut this short here.



why?
we want the long version pls Cool
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2016-08-20 12:17:23 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:


Ken, what you are missing is the high possibility of a cultural shift away from victimhood.





I will say I never feel like a victim when I'm out doing my noob system boosting. I take many steps to protect my stuff, and do everything I can to ensure I am in as much control of the situation as a player can be in Eve. I acknowledge that eventually someone is going to come along with a bigger stick. But I can also tell you they'll need a really big one. If they bring it, fair. Welcome to Eve.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#286 - 2016-08-20 12:53:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

So your suggestion has no merit in hisec, because that is how the mechanics work.


If billion isk incursion fleets manage then so can miners.

Dracvlad wrote:

What you have suggested is perfectly fine for null sec and even low sec, but it does not work for hisec where the only metric that counts is surviving the massed firepower of multiple destroyers until CONCORD comes. The Skiffs current tank is right, period.


As already pointed out, ganking makes up a minority of barge losses and under my plan the barges would have ample tank to survive.


We are talking about mining and not incursion runners, the pace is completely different. It is disingenuous to do so.

Ganking makes up the majority of losses in hisec, with the tank you have proposed for the Skiff 80k to 90k you would make every mining ship vulnerable even if they fitted to max tank which is not giving miners the tools for the job. At the moment the Skiff is corretly set up and is the only choice for miners who do not want to be ganked, as long as that choice is left to me with the tank it has now I don't care what else CCP does. As long as they have a ship which people can chose which has a tank that deters the easy complacent gankers then I am fine. 90k does not do it, but the present Skiff does.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Solecist Project
#287 - 2016-08-20 13:00:32 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:


Ken, what you are missing is the high possibility of a cultural shift away from victimhood.





I will say I never feel like a victim when I'm out doing my noob system boosting. I take many steps to protect my stuff, and do everything I can to ensure I am in as much control of the situation as a player can be in Eve. I acknowledge that eventually someone is going to come along with a bigger stick. But I can also tell you they'll need a really big one. If they bring it, fair. Welcome to Eve.
why is this about you and only about you?

You're not the only one out there. There are tons of people out there getting taught exactly that.
You are doing it right, but all these other people who don't, they're who this should be about.




Fine ... at least I've tried! vOv

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#288 - 2016-08-20 13:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
The majority of people who mine in hisec are solo or small entity players, I mine with two toons in my own damn fleet. The damn asteroids are so damn small one and a half cycle is often what I get, I can't share a belt with anyone else, what the hell are you smoking?

Why are you suggesting that hisec miners can sit in some composite fleet like that when the basic resources are so low that it is not worth it. And will get even worse with on grid boosting,

Hisec due to the small size of asteroid belts is not going to be mined by fleets like that, the only pace it happens is ice belts, your suggestions are fine for null sec and low sec, I actually like them for that, but still at the end of the day the Skiff as it is now is the ship that gives balance to hisec, something that the gankers have to up their game to gank.

Outside of the heavily ganked systems many people use the other ships. Why can't players have the choice to mine in a ship that can be tanked above what gankers are comfortable to gank with, why do we have to have that choice removed from us. I see no valid reasons apart from making it easy for gankers.

EDIT: And this pathetic charge by people that its being AFK is the issue, I do not mine AFK even in two almost top tanked Skiffs and the reason is that with one and a half cycle I would not mine very much at all. You cannot mine ore in hisec AFK period. If any people looking at this thread see any one start going off on AFK mining in hisec other than ice mining define them as total and utter cretins!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2016-08-20 13:02:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Solecist Project wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:


Ken, what you are missing is the high possibility of a cultural shift away from victimhood.





I will say I never feel like a victim when I'm out doing my noob system boosting. I take many steps to protect my stuff, and do everything I can to ensure I am in as much control of the situation as a player can be in Eve. I acknowledge that eventually someone is going to come along with a bigger stick. But I can also tell you they'll need a really big one. If they bring it, fair. Welcome to Eve.
why is this about you and only about you?

You're not the only one out there. There are tons of people out there getting taught exactly that.
You are doing it right, but all these other people who don't, they're who this should be about.




Fine ... at least I've tried! vOv


It's not. It's about the mentality.


But you did start that sentence with my name

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Solecist Project
#290 - 2016-08-20 13:05:22 UTC
Unlike you apparently, others can't read the minds of their opposites...

Formulate your thoughts and write them down?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#291 - 2016-08-20 13:08:54 UTC
What do you need written down?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Solecist Project
#292 - 2016-08-20 13:10:12 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
What do you need written down?

Nevermind. Have fun posting.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2016-08-20 13:11:59 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
What do you need written down?

Nevermind. Have fun posting.




was a legit question. What were you missing/didn't I explain adequately?


Okay though. have fun doing that thing you do.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Solecist Project
#294 - 2016-08-20 13:17:24 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
What do you need written down?

Nevermind. Have fun posting.




was a legit question. What were you missing/didn't I explain adequately?


Okay though. have fun doing that thing you do.

It's fine, I'll jump in eventually, when the conversation reaches an actual point of progression.
I guess it's a better way and my fault for expecting something.

Btw, you ignored 90% of my above, medium length, well written post.

Ttyl!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Trevize Demerzel
#295 - 2016-08-20 13:19:57 UTC
Here's a thought...

Make mining barges immune to warp disruption, sorta like interceptors. That way the AFK miner is still an easy gank target and the miner that is paying attention can just warp off :-)

-
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2016-08-20 13:25:33 UTC
Bro, I literally spent almost 2 full pages discussing this mentality thing with baltec. That Victimhood thing you mentioned, is what those almost two pages were about from my perspective, which I had felt I'd outlined pretty clear.



I made a commentary that I've never felt like a victim because I DO the things baltec and I were discussing, mostly because you started that sentence by addressing me in it, so I made a commentary response.


You then said I was trying to make it about me and only me? And that I ignored 90% of your well written post?



Quote:
"why is this about you and only about you?

You're not the only one out there. There are tons of people out there getting taught exactly that.
You are doing it right, but all these other people who don't, they're who this should be about.




Fine ... at least I've tried! vOv"



If this is the one you mean, I responded to it. And had just had a long discussion with baltec the almost two pages prior about this very thing.



Sorry if that wasn't clear. I f I missed something to let me know.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Solecist Project
#297 - 2016-08-20 13:27:26 UTC
Trevize Demerzel wrote:
Here's a thought...

Make mining barges immune to warp disruption, sorta like interceptors. That way the AFK miner is still an easy gank target and the miner that is paying attention can just warp off :-)


I... this... I mean .....

Shocked



Wow, that's worth taking a look at...
Holy ****, SO ******* smart to even consider this! :D

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#298 - 2016-08-20 13:33:30 UTC
My bad, i'll scan your posting history.
Apparently i skipped things switching between threads.

Coffee..l

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#299 - 2016-08-20 13:39:41 UTC
It's the OTHER thread we're writing books back and forth Lol

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2016-08-20 13:54:02 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Trevize Demerzel wrote:
Here's a thought...

Make mining barges immune to warp disruption, sorta like interceptors. That way the AFK miner is still an easy gank target and the miner that is paying attention can just warp off :-)


I... this... I mean .....

Shocked



Wow, that's worth taking a look at...
Holy ****, SO ******* smart to even consider this! :D



Venture already has a +2 warpstrength bonus LOL
(you thought this was going too far? I say it's already happened lololo)