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So, Barge Info?
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Solecist Project
#101 - 2016-08-18 07:29:07 UTC
We need to gather people who agree on this.
I am all for it. The long term possibilities are highly interesting.

Quite the potential for a shift.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#102 - 2016-08-18 07:32:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Defend the attackers with drones, the only defence that matters is the tank. The drones take a bit of time to get to work...


And you cant fit a tank on 4 of the barges due to a lack of slots, CPU and powergrid while the other two get the tank of a fully fitted cruiser baked into the hull. They are horribly broken.


Nope the others are horribly broken.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#103 - 2016-08-18 07:34:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Its a tanky mining ship, that bonus is not interesting for me in terms of the fact it is a mining ship, its nice to have, but adds nothing to its primary role.


Its a combat bonus.


On a non-combat mining ship, its nice to have but not that important, for a start I fit an extra bulkhead instead of the drone damage amp. Cool

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#104 - 2016-08-18 07:34:22 UTC
Skiff and proc should get their base hp brought back down to normal levels, keep the combat bonus to drones, get a few more slots and fitting room to open up options and allow for a decent combat fit. They are now perfect mining escorts/defence boats for both fleet work and solo.

Retriever and mackinaw both need a good deal more slots and CPU/PG so they can actually have options when fitting them. CCP need to get creative here so I would say go radical. Give them two utility highs and a small bonus to remote shield boosters. Alter the cap to compensate. Again, they need the ability to actually fit a decent setup, 1 mid and 3 lows are next to useless.

Covetor and Hulk should be the go to strip miners, they also need more fitting slots and CPU/PG to actually fit things.

I would also alter the cargo expanders to also impact the ore hold and reduce the hold on barges to compensate. All barges would be able to hold at least two cycles as a base with the option of improving that if they so wish.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#105 - 2016-08-18 07:40:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Skiff and proc should get their base hp brought back down to normal levels, keep the combat bonus to drones, get a few more slots and fitting room to open up options and allow for a decent combat fit. They are now perfect mining escorts/defence boats for both fleet work and solo.

Retriever and mackinaw both need a good deal more slots and CPU/PG so they can actually have options when fitting them. CCP need to get creative here so I would say go radical. Give them two utility highs and a small bonus to remote shield boosters. Alter the cap to compensate. Again, they need the ability to actually fit a decent setup, 1 mid and 3 lows are next to useless.

Covetor and Hulk should be the go to strip miners, they also need more fitting slots and CPU/PG to actually fit things.

I would also alter the cargo expanders to also impact the ore hold and reduce the hold on barges to compensate. All barges would be able to hold at least two cycles as a base with the option of improving that if they so wish.


The coverter, Hulk, Retreiver and Mackinaw should all get their base increased but not as strong as the Skiff and Procurer, there should be differences in roles and yield as there is now.

The Hulk and Coveter are fleet mining ships, the Reteiver and Mac are solo yield ships and the skiff and procurer are for those that want defence first and for more risky environments. You just want easy kills and want fitting flexibility like a combat ship when they are specialised mining ships. Get away with you...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#106 - 2016-08-18 07:46:10 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
You just want easy kills and want fitting flexibility like a combat ship when they are specialised mining ships. Get away with you...


A mining fleet with greater tank, logi and offensive capability is asking for easy kills?

I just said give them more tank, I just said add logi, I just said give them more combat capability and you are saying Im asking for easier kills...
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#107 - 2016-08-18 07:59:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
You just want easy kills and want fitting flexibility like a combat ship when they are specialised mining ships. Get away with you...


A mining fleet with greater tank, logi and offensive capability is asking for easy kills?

I just said give them more tank, I just said add logi, I just said give them more combat capability and you are saying Im asking for easier kills...


You are asking for more flexible fitting for a single role ship to fit in with cruisers and then saying that their base EHP should be in line with cruisers. They are not flexible combat ships built around speed and the ability to use weapons and the full suite of combat capabilities, most notably weapons systems in the highs.

The only think that matters for these ships is tank, period, because it is a DPS race against tank before CONCORD arrives to give their lame consequences to a cheap ship or cheap ships.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Solecist Project
#108 - 2016-08-18 08:17:18 UTC
So why do you oppose giving miners more options?
Why do you oppose a potential shift away from miners being merely victims?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#109 - 2016-08-18 08:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
You just want easy kills and want fitting flexibility like a combat ship when they are specialised mining ships. Get away with you...


A mining fleet with greater tank, logi and offensive capability is asking for easy kills?

I just said give them more tank, I just said add logi, I just said give them more combat capability and you are saying Im asking for easier kills...


You are asking for more flexible fitting for a single role ship to fit in with cruisers and then saying that their base EHP should be in line with cruisers. They are not flexible combat ships built around speed and the ability to use weapons and the full suite of combat capabilities, most notably weapons systems in the highs.

The only think that matters for these ships is tank, period, because it is a DPS race against tank before CONCORD arrives to give their lame consequences to a cheap ship or cheap ships.


So you are saying you don't want miners to have more defensive options? Looks to me like the only person asking for easy miner kills is you.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2016-08-18 08:41:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Why the devil are you guys acting like the Skiff doesn't exist? She has tank, drone DPS and half the Mackinaw's cargo capacity and reduced m3/sec to compensate! If getting gank is your problem, why don't just fly a fricking Skiff and take the reduced cargo capacity and mining m3/s in strides? If money is a problem downgrade into the Procurer!

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Solecist Project
#111 - 2016-08-18 08:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Well, for some reason he refuses to adress my questions, so i'll do it for him.

Likely is that he opposes it, because he believes miners will just keep fitting for yield and be easy prey.
That's not unlikely for a part of the mining population, but it's like this for every population.

What he ignores is the shift away from people advising miners to fit tank...
... to people advising miners to fit prepared for combat ...
... and adjusting their alarms accordingly for fast response times in case of afk.

Alternatively does he hate it, because he's actually a ganker ...
... or because it makes the irrelevant AG even more irrelevant.

Reminds me of BLM and SJW, who would never really want what they yell for ...
... because it would remove their excuse that "allows" them to scream for attention.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#112 - 2016-08-18 08:51:23 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Why the devil are you guys acting like the Skiff doesn't exist? She has tank, drone DPS and half the Mackinaw's cargo capacity and reduced m3/sec to compensate! If getting gank is your problem, why don't just fly a fricking Skiff and take the reduced cargo capacity and mining m3/s in strides? If money is a problem downgrade into the Procurer!


The problem is the skiff and proc are both overpowered in their base tank. What we need is a balanced barge lineup not only with each other but against all the other ships out there. Some people can't seem to get past the nerf skiff and see the part where its getting its fittings buffed to turn it into something more capable and useful.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#113 - 2016-08-18 09:00:58 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Why the devil are you guys acting like the Skiff doesn't exist? She has tank, drone DPS and half the Mackinaw's cargo capacity and reduced m3/sec to compensate! If getting gank is your problem, why don't just fly a fricking Skiff and take the reduced cargo capacity and mining m3/s in strides? If money is a problem downgrade into the Procurer!


I mine in a Skiff, but baltec1 keeps wanting to nerf it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Solecist Project
#114 - 2016-08-18 09:02:50 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Why the devil are you guys acting like the Skiff doesn't exist? She has tank, drone DPS and half the Mackinaw's cargo capacity and reduced m3/sec to compensate! If getting gank is your problem, why don't just fly a fricking Skiff and take the reduced cargo capacity and mining m3/s in strides? If money is a problem downgrade into the Procurer!


I mine in a Skiff, but baltec1 keeps wanting to nerf it.

You're being dishonestand hide the true reasons for your behaviour.

Plus it reminds me of the mail Hengle posted...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#115 - 2016-08-18 09:05:36 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Why the devil are you guys acting like the Skiff doesn't exist? She has tank, drone DPS and half the Mackinaw's cargo capacity and reduced m3/sec to compensate! If getting gank is your problem, why don't just fly a fricking Skiff and take the reduced cargo capacity and mining m3/s in strides? If money is a problem downgrade into the Procurer!


I mine in a Skiff, but baltec1 keeps wanting to nerf it.


I just asked to buff its defensive abilities, you are demanding for to not have greater defensive options.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#116 - 2016-08-18 09:08:01 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
So why do you oppose giving miners more options?
Why do you oppose a potential shift away from miners being merely victims?


Ignoring your later rant and projection on to me.

It is a mining ship not a flexible combat ship that can be adjusted to fight with different abilities be it a focus on speed, tank or greater damage. The mining ship is mining that is its job, the biggest risk it has is being blown up by people in Destroyers in a DPS race against CONCORD, so that is what is needed for this ship class. Simply put you can fit a Skiff for yield and usability in terms of mining, but it can then be ganked.

But the bigger pictures is taht the three types of mining ships ahve different roles which is fine, many people who mine believe taht the other two mining classes are too weak in terms of tank.

Gankers because they want easy kills want to nerf the Skiff class.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#117 - 2016-08-18 09:10:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Why the devil are you guys acting like the Skiff doesn't exist? She has tank, drone DPS and half the Mackinaw's cargo capacity and reduced m3/sec to compensate! If getting gank is your problem, why don't just fly a fricking Skiff and take the reduced cargo capacity and mining m3/s in strides? If money is a problem downgrade into the Procurer!


I mine in a Skiff, but baltec1 keeps wanting to nerf it.


I just asked to buff its defensive abilities, you are demanding for to not have greater defensive options.


You keep asking to nerf it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#118 - 2016-08-18 09:12:14 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


You keep asking to nerf it.


Aside from the part where I ask for better fittings for it. Fittings that you can use for, say, tank.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2016-08-18 09:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
baltec1 wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Why the devil are you guys acting like the Skiff doesn't exist? She has tank, drone DPS and half the Mackinaw's cargo capacity and reduced m3/sec to compensate! If getting gank is your problem, why don't just fly a fricking Skiff and take the reduced cargo capacity and mining m3/s in strides? If money is a problem downgrade into the Procurer!


The problem is the skiff and proc are both overpowered in their base tank. What we need is a balanced barge lineup not only with each other but against all the other ships out there. Some people can't seem to get past the nerf skiff and see the part where its getting its fittings buffed to turn it into something more capable and useful.


Throw enough Catalysts at them and the Skiff/Procurer will still die. Seriously, if you can gank a freighter, ganking a Procurer/Skiff should be easier, though I question the financial sense of ganking these ships. They have the tank of battlecruisers (Procurer) and battleships (Skiff), meaning that ganking them is still very much doable especially for those guys who gank Freighters daily at Jita 4-4. Those drones are great at killing a destroyer or two but that's just about it.

And are you guys forgetting that these tanky barges/exhumers don't mine as much or as fast as Mackinaws anyway? Heck, how did you guys even cope when mining in the Golden Banana or the Rokh was a thing?

I don't see what the problem is.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2016-08-18 09:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Elmund Egivand wrote:

Throw enough Catalysts at them and the Skiff/Procurer will still die. Seriously, if you can gank a freighter, ganking a Procurer/Skiff should be easier, though I question the financial sense of ganking these ships. They have the tank of battlecruisers (Procurer) and battleships (Skiff), meaning that ganking them is still very much doable especially for those guys who gank Freighters daily at Jita 4-4. hose drones are great at killing a destroyer or two but that's just about it.

I don't see what the problem is.


These ships don't just get used in highsec.

You are in null, you have a mining fleet of say, hulks macks and skiffs. A small gang hit you and bubbles your fleet. What happens? You die. The hulks and macks first with the skiffs last only because they have a monster base tank. Big tank means nothing outside of highsec.

Now under my plan you have a mixed fleet, the hulks are the dedicated miners, the macks are providing logi support and the skiffs are offering offensive support to fight off the attackers. Suddenly the mining fleet is not defenseless vs a small gang.

Every time you tell miners to have a a few combat ships guard them they say nobody is going to be willing to sit around all day staring at space. Every time you tell them to have logi with them they say nobody is willing to do that with no reward. Under the plan I gave you have those things in the very ships are are mining with. You have options, all the barges have a useful role to play in a mining fleet, there is no single "best" ship like today as they are all on an even playing field in terms of tank and they are balanced against the other ships out there.

One of the biggest complains from everyone is that mining is boring. Well, here is a plan to make mining less boring by giving you the ability to fight back. Or would you rather just dock up and not play because barges are useless at defending themselves?