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What CCP think about Casino influence in EVE economy ?

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Author
Resnar Ash-carrier
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-07-24 22:40:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Resnar Ash-carrier
Hello !

Today i come after several weeks of reading shitpost on reddit about IWI (mbc) vs CFC, in both side we don't speak about good FC who took good fight, or some other hero in the war, nah beside the backstabber Co2 there is something people talk about : IWI who pay MBC to kill SMA then Goon (and CFC at the same time)

So after cople weeks of war now goons admit defeat and leave north to rebuild in south, we know the winner : MBC but some discussion still fall : did this war was legit ?

We have 2 side here, MBC who say all of that was legit, well done by MBC/IWI, and that's just an bigger entity who kill goons because they deserve it, and in the other side we have The imperium, who say, it's not legit, an out of game gambling website have no right to influence the eve economy.

So now i think everyone know what is the opinions in both side, i will not explain them (and that's will not be very fair, i'm against an out of game website influence the economy of eve so i will "miss" some part etc my point here is not to say who have right or not, just know what CCP think about it), so did CCP think it's legit to let an gambling website doing what they want with the ISK they generate ? Did they think it's not fair, in a game like EVE where ISK = RISK is real, an website who is untouchable can "pay" a war ?

Now my opinion (that's the part you, MBC member, can **** talking about this) :

For me a gambling site have no right to influence in a game like eve, when you know an alliance have to take sov, take moon, defend it, refuel it, handle it, to produce isk, more moon you have bigger you are, but now, that synergia have been broke by IWI who come with an out of game income, who is untouchable and bigger than moon money, now we see as bigger entity, winner of a big war, some alliance, who hate each other, fight each other, and just fly together while goons undock. When i have join null sec i was like "I need to defend that moon for my alliance" now i feel all of that is useless, if you have a gambling site, you can provide enough to break the biggest alliance in the game, the" balance" of the game have been broke by IWI, and when i say "balance" i don't mean in power, but in way to get that power, an guy pretty lucky who win in gambling everytimes can make more money in afk station, while a guy in null/wh rat in his shiny ship and can die hourly.. And that's the part i don't like with gambling site, even if they are fun, they unbalance the economy, the way to get isk , and the life in the game

I hope have a good respond by CCP, and from other ppl who will not just stop to :'stfu goon are dead we win IWI is legit" i will not even answer to them

Edit 1 : i'm cute in real life don't be mean against me :/
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#2 - 2016-07-24 22:52:30 UTC
Since it uses ISK as currency, it's not exactly a proper gambling site either. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's an ingame gambling venue, due to the preffered currency.
Resnar Ash-carrier
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-07-24 22:58:01 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Since it uses ISK as currency, it's not exactly a proper gambling site either. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's an ingame gambling venue, due to the preffered currency.


Hum maybe your right i don't realy know all of that, but if i remember i have hear in a stream of IWI leader, define itself by "gambling site" but i realy need someone to confirm it

However gambling or not, that's still a website who take a % of transaction for each raffle/slot machine and keep it in bank, make that at the size of IWI that give you 300bil+ per day so that's not very bad
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#4 - 2016-07-24 23:31:44 UTC
i miss dinsdale, he knew how to do this properly.
Resnar Ash-carrier
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-07-24 23:57:02 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
i miss dinsdale, he knew how to do this properly.


I don't know this guy at all ! But sorry to be so bad ;)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#6 - 2016-07-25 00:03:55 UTC
All the isk IWI has is held on characters/corporations in the EVE Universe, therefore it's in game.
How you can possibly pretend it's out of game I don't know, other than sore loser delusions I guess.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#7 - 2016-07-25 00:20:34 UTC
Resnar Ash-carrier wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
i miss dinsdale, he knew how to do this properly.


I don't know this guy at all ! But sorry to be so bad ;)

its ok, his tinfoil crown would burden any mere mortals solders.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#8 - 2016-07-25 00:31:30 UTC
CCP makes money from PLEX sales that get used to fund gambling accounts. The second they receive any legal heat about this, it will be against the EULA.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Sustrai Aditua
Intandofisa
#9 - 2016-07-25 01:03:55 UTC
Any transactions involving players transferring ISK to other players is a wash (null set) with regard to taking ISK out of the game, or putting ISK into it. Therefore, it doesn't affect the EVE economy in any way, so inferring that somehow a third-party website is affecting the game in any way is a logical fallacy; regardless of how one may feel about the incident(s) to which one might wish to place such an attribution.

This means any third party site not in violation of agreements made with CCP (CoC/EULA) is not in violation of anything significant to EVE. Right? (Doc?) LOL.

If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#10 - 2016-07-25 01:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mephiztopheleze
I hate real-world casinos (seriously, so many depressed people in one place is just, what's that Afrikaans word again, oh yeah: grillerig). I hate online gambling even more. What kind of fool trusts a gambling site wholly based on someone's back end coding to be 'fair'? Apparently a lot of fools given the incredible success of sites like somerblink and IWI and other iterations of similar.

Fools and their ISK will soon be parted.

Doc Fury wrote:
CCP makes money from PLEX sales that get used to fund gambling accounts. The second they receive any legal heat about this, it will be against the EULA.


You'd almost be right, except for the simple fact that none of us 'own' anything in EVE. CCP 'owns' all of our ships, ISK, items and characters. It says so, right there in the ToU and EULA that you agreed to when setting up your EVE Online account. That makes legal heat of the kind you're suggesting very, very difficult to apply.

You'd also have to do so under Icelandic law in Icelandic courts.

Sustrai Aditua wrote:
Any transactions involving players transferring ISK to other players is a wash (null set) with regard to taking ISK out of the game, or putting ISK into it. Therefore, it doesn't affect the EVE economy in any way, so inferring that somehow a third-party website is affecting the game in any way is a logical fallacy; regardless of how one may feel about the incident(s) to which one might wish to place such an attribution.

This means any third party site not in violation of agreements made with CCP (CoC/EULA) is not in violation of anything significant to EVE. Right? (Doc?) LOL.



What complete, first year Philosophy 101 rubbish.
Casino sites don't add ISK directly into the economy, yes you're correct about that.
However, casinos concentrate ISK in the hands of the casino's owners and operators. ISK is an in-game resource. Having access to more in-game resources than someone else, gives you an advantage over that someone.
Equally, someone having a huge pile of ISK allows that someone to have undue influence over the market. This is as true of the likes of George Soros and co in the real world as it is of super-rich individuals inside EVE.
If the source of that ISK is a third party casino website, then that website is having an influence on the game and it's economy.
Your argument is invalid.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

John Volan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2016-07-25 01:13:41 UTC
What does it matter what the interface is for Eve players to spend their isk? A website, an app, an in-game activity, they're all valid so long as the barrier between the virtual and real money or item exchange isn't crossed. Players essentially giving isk to other players for in-game services is very much a part of what eve is all about and personally I think the fact that it can be achieved on an external website is only an indication of how advanced both eve's economy and meta gameplay have become.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#12 - 2016-07-25 01:28:01 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:

Doc Fury wrote:
CCP makes money from PLEX sales that get used to fund gambling accounts. The second they receive any legal heat about this, it will be against the EULA.


You'd almost be right, except for the simple fact that none of us 'own' anything in EVE. CCP 'owns' all of our ships, ISK, items and characters. It says so, right there in the ToU and EULA that you agreed to when setting up your EVE Online account. That makes legal heat of the kind you're suggesting very, very difficult to apply.

You'd also have to do so under Icelandic law in Icelandic courts.



Ummm, no... Anywhere CCP has offices (at least) is a potential legal venue. They don't just operate out of Iceland.

All you need is a prosecutor in one or more of those venues (countries) that is willing to start an action, and it's just not worth it financially, or for the press involved for CCP to defend it to allow the practice to continue.

If you need an example, look at what just happened to Valve, and how they swiftly evaded litigation dealt with the problem by altering their EULA.







There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2016-07-25 01:40:21 UTC
Sustrai Aditua wrote:
Any transactions involving players transferring ISK to other players is a wash (null set) with regard to taking ISK out of the game, or putting ISK into it. Therefore, it doesn't affect the EVE economy in any way, so inferring that somehow a third-party website is affecting the game in any way is a logical fallacy; regardless of how one may feel about the incident(s) to which one might wish to place such an attribution.

This means any third party site not in violation of agreements made with CCP (CoC/EULA) is not in violation of anything significant to EVE. Right? (Doc?) LOL.



Well...not quite true. Depends on who gets it and what they do with it. If it goes into an account where the player does not spend the ISK then it does very little, if the player does spend it it is moving around the economy and having an effect.

That kind of "macro" thinking can lead you astray, IMO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#14 - 2016-07-25 05:01:02 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
I hate real-world casinos (seriously, so many depressed people in one place is just, what's that Afrikaans word again, oh yeah: grillerig). I hate online gambling even more. What kind of fool trusts a gambling site wholly based on someone's back end coding to be 'fair'? Apparently a lot of fools given the incredible success of sites like somerblink and IWI and other iterations of similar.

Fools and their ISK will soon be parted.

Doc Fury wrote:
CCP makes money from PLEX sales that get used to fund gambling accounts. The second they receive any legal heat about this, it will be against the EULA.


You'd almost be right, except for the simple fact that none of us 'own' anything in EVE. CCP 'owns' all of our ships, ISK, items and characters. It says so, right there in the ToU and EULA that you agreed to when setting up your EVE Online account. That makes legal heat of the kind you're suggesting very, very difficult to apply.

You'd also have to do so under Icelandic law in Icelandic courts.

Sustrai Aditua wrote:
Any transactions involving players transferring ISK to other players is a wash (null set) with regard to taking ISK out of the game, or putting ISK into it. Therefore, it doesn't affect the EVE economy in any way, so inferring that somehow a third-party website is affecting the game in any way is a logical fallacy; regardless of how one may feel about the incident(s) to which one might wish to place such an attribution.

This means any third party site not in violation of agreements made with CCP (CoC/EULA) is not in violation of anything significant to EVE. Right? (Doc?) LOL.



What complete, first year Philosophy 101 rubbish.
Casino sites don't add ISK directly into the economy, yes you're correct about that.
However, casinos concentrate ISK in the hands of the casino's owners and operators. ISK is an in-game resource. Having access to more in-game resources than someone else, gives you an advantage over that someone.
Equally, someone having a huge pile of ISK allows that someone to have undue influence over the market. This is as true of the likes of George Soros and co in the real world as it is of super-rich individuals inside EVE.
If the source of that ISK is a third party casino website, then that website is having an influence on the game and it's economy.
Your argument is invalid.


Personally I don't like casino's either, they take advantage of human psychology to get other people's money without really producing anything of value (my personal opinion, pretty political etc so feel free to ignore this part).

That being said, eve feels like it's supposed to be an extreme free-market, might-is-right, wild-west, no-government-oversight kind of place. I feel like Casino's fit right in with this. Someone concentrating in-game money by manipulating other players feels right at place to me. They're only getting money off characters willing to risk it. It's basically another in-game scam (as is any gambling where the odds are not in your favor). The fact that someone was able to pull it off on a scale to massively affect in-game politics is pretty amazing.

As far as being a third-party site, so are eve related news sites, so are eve related corp support sites (comms, forums, etc), so are market tools, mapping tools, fitting tools and a whole range of other stuff. I'm totally fine with people paying in-game currency for third-party tools and entertainment.

My only issue is the mix of Casinos and IRL money via PLEX, but that's a pretty convoluted issue to do with PLEX in general.
ugh zug
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2016-07-25 06:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ugh zug
if i was CCP i would view player made casinos with embarrassment...

1. gambling could have already been in the game via npcs or other methods considering how popular it has been over the years and still remaining as such.

2. casinos are generating content for this terrible game, something ccp is rather bad at.

3. the vast majority of the wealth earned is not spent but banked and will never see the light of day again; an isk sink is something this game will always need.

4. rmt isk washing, casinos can easily be used to launder isk.

5 casino owners can bully any large group of players if they please by funding wars... they only get this big because ccp has yet to level the playing field by giving corps/alliances the option of setting up their own gambling houses with all in game tools and limiting the distance one person can transmit ISK to another via right click

Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.

Resnar Ash-carrier
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-07-25 06:54:45 UTC
John Volan wrote:
What does it matter what the interface is for Eve players to spend their isk? A website, an app, an in-game activity, they're all valid so long as the barrier between the virtual and real money or item exchange isn't crossed. Players essentially giving isk to other players for in-game services is very much a part of what eve is all about and personally I think the fact that it can be achieved on an external website is only an indication of how advanced both eve's economy and meta gameplay have become.



The problem is not if you play or not in gambling site, the problem is what the gambling site do with you money...

For exemple i have see (Bjorn bee? don't remember) an IWI streamer use that isk to roam in dread, that's fun, that give content to the stream, to the ppl who kill you and meh you ! But IWI have doing something that for deserve a ban :

- Anchor Keepstar, yeah i don't know for the ph, gtog, co2, hard knock, even if somehow they all lead to IWI (ph => pl => iwi, gtog => mbc => iwi, co2 => mbc => iwi, hard knock => pl => iwi) the keepstar in maila is officialy from IWI, it was the first in k-space, who will say :" yeah but what ? it's just a citadel, nah it's a keepstar the biggest thing in the game, they said in reddit :' we will anchor 5/6 other in the month coming around the world" an regular alliance can't pay 5/6 keepstar look the GTOG citadel have been paid by ALL alliance in GTOG. I also want to point that they anchor keepstar, so the day Palatine Keepstar will be able in the game, iwi will be the first to deploy it i'm sure at 100% and that's not fair, how a gambling site can handle so mutch thing in the game ?

- The WWB, so yeah Goon had a superpower who reigned over the world for a long time, they done a long list of unethical thing (and for me that bring me in the game because that make me laugh...) so a lot of ppl don't very like them, true, but with all the honestly, the WWB without IWI, it would never happen; in a "talk in a station" an IWI leader said :"For now, this war from IWI have cost 10 tril" so, i know a lot of ppl are rich, i know a lot of ppl make a **** ton of isk, i personnaly handle 6 accunt to multibox 14hour per day, i can make 2bil per day, i guess an alliance with a lot of moon can make a lot of isk, i don't know the real income of an alliance scale with moon, but 10 tril... how does it take to create that capital for an alliance ? Month ? Year ? I don't know but i think a lot of time, IWI came and give 10 tril to MBC to kill SMA then Goon (because "it was fun"). I know i will get ***** about that, but, it's almost like "free income" you can't stop that income, you don't realy have to handle something beside deposit/withdraw (i guess sometimes it's instant, sometimes it take a long time so...) so you create a good capital of isk to start, you create a website, you make good ad, and then you earn more than big alliance ? it's 1°) Not fair 2°) that move a lot of isk every to 1 person : IWI bank, so that disturb the eve economy 3°) it's intouchable

Btw, a lot of ppl have laugh when Mitanni said he will create his own gambling site, but what this guy do it's something just genious, he want to prouve his alliance can earn a lot of isk only with gambling site, he want to prouve that the rules of the game is broken and now if you want make you alliance wallet great again, you just have to have a gambling site who generate more isk than your big moon who everyone want and will try to take so cost to defend etc etc
Resnar Ash-carrier
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2016-07-25 06:57:59 UTC
ugh zug wrote:
if i was CCP i would view player made casinos with embarrassment...

1. gambling could have already been in the game via npcs or other methods considering how popular it has been over the years and still remaining as such.

2. casinos are generating content for this terrible game, something ccp is rather bad at.

3. the vast majority of the wealth earned is not spent but banked and will never see the light of day again; an isk sink is something this game will always need.

4. rmt isk washing, casinos can easily be used to launder isk.

5 casino owners can bully any large group of players they please by funding wars... they only get this big because ccp has yet to level the playing field by giving corps/alliances the option of setting up their own gambling houses with all in game tools and limiting the distance one person can transmit ISK to another via right click


I pretty like you idea of make casino handle my NPC, actualy that could be a great idea, it will be fair, 0 impact in the economy, not handle by a small group in the game, and can be very fun to see kind of ctiadel who look like a casino in space with everyone going there to lose his money (or earn it !)

yeah i think dude you have found something that can make eve great again ! casino handle my npcn :3
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#18 - 2016-07-25 07:08:11 UTC
If they make in-game casino's they better not be run by NPCs.

The best bits of eve are that most of the economy is player driven, not npc driven.

I get that it'd be a great isk sink for the game, but then you're taking something that is player created and driven and just making it another artificial PvE thing. Currently there's no guarantee IWI are legit and won't just run off with everyone's isk when they're done. Perfect eve style drama, scamming, conflict driver etc.

If you just give that to an artificial in-game computer random generator you'll miss out on the cool stuff, like a casino mogul funding the largest recent war.
kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#19 - 2016-07-25 07:58:01 UTC
It could have helped for cfc if they did in fact undock at all) pretty mutch, :P
Chewytowel Haklar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2016-07-25 08:15:54 UTC
Frankly I think it comes down to competition. We need more people to compete against IWI and come up with a concept just as good if not better. That is the only way at the moment I see as a solution.

In time though anything can happen. Eventually people might get sick and tired of casino's and their popularity could die down. Who can predict the future?

If you let Coke have market share for carbonated beverages and no one competes they are simply going to dominate. This is pretty simple stuff imo.
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