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[118.6] Capital Balancing

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Anthar Thebess
#501 - 2016-06-23 10:00:31 UTC
Crazy Vania wrote:
Greetings. I do not own a Carrier. I am an interceptor pilot, and as such I am here to give some perspective.

Today I have spent 4 hours on SiSi with my friends testing these upcoming changes in a standard Malediction[All our inties have a template: Unlinked and Unsnaked [5km/s]+[5k ehp]+[3pts]

I come from a background of 8 years doing things in Stilettos or Maledictions that keep me alive while pointing stuff, so I might be kinda ok at it.

We have, as many other groups, done our testing methodically, from both the perspective of killing carriers, and flying carriers. Post Citadel we saw what carriers did to interceptors and I wept while my friends cheered. Today I sadistically laughed while my friends wept.

Today:

Can a Carrier on sisi kill a single interceptor? No.
Can it force the interceptor to drop the point? Yes, after approx 60 seconds, but not using Cenobytes or Fighters or Grams, but using 2x Heavy neuts, just like any old battleship.

The reason is: I can scram whatever support drone the carrier throws at me at 13km (cenobyte range is 10 I think) and I can survive the Einrehjis by just tanking the light amount of damage they'll do before their MWD turns off and I orbit away. All the while keeping point on the carrier.

A carrier's only hope then is to have 2 heavy neuts, which, well, many will, right? It's just sound. But Heavy Neuts is what battleship use to get rid of tackle. And they won't really kill the inty, they'll just eventually make it have a bad point cycle and either drop point or take too much damage so it has to warp away.

Is this acceptable? I don't know... I don't think so? Before Citadels, a combat fitted carrier could wipe me out in 10 seconds with a flight of 10-15 warriors.

Even though it benefits me as a tackler, I'd like it if Carriers weren't completely shite. I'm happy they don't immediately blap my Malediction anymore, but maybe give them a way to make it risky for me to get in range to them. Right now there is no zero risk.

---

And I don't know if my corpies have posted this yet, but this is what I wrote yesterday sitting in a Rapier on sisi:

http://pastebin.com/raw/H2S7s4YC

Enjoy!

People are telling this CCP for quite while now.
Please post this on reddit - plenty DEV's read it .

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
C-137
C3 Corporation
#502 - 2016-06-23 10:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Crazy Vania wrote:


And I don't know if my corpies have posted this yet, but this is what I wrote yesterday sitting in a Rapier on sisi:

http://pastebin.com/raw/H2S7s4YC

Enjoy!


Applied dps by % means nothing. 25% applied damage is still 825 dps. Do you really want a Thanatos to be able to hit a Zealot for 3000+ dps?

Sisi Thanatos vs Oynx with better sig taking over 600 applied dps.

Your Carrier pilot must be **** if he cannot kill you in an interceptor

Edit: This guy is full of ****. 5 km/s , 5k EHP, 3 Points, on a Mael? So he has faction Scram, so hes within 20 km, so Fighters reach him before he locks them, so hes full of ****.
C-137
C3 Corporation
#503 - 2016-06-23 10:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Missclick - delete plz.
Crazy Vania
EM Program for Training and Youth
#504 - 2016-06-23 10:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy Vania
C-137 wrote:

Your Carrier pilot must be **** if he cannot kill you in an interceptor

Edit: This guy is full of ****. 5 km/s , 5k EHP, 3 Points, on a Mael? So he has faction Scram, so hes within 20 km, so Fighters reach him before he locks them, so hes full of ****.


The fact that you don't understand what 3pts interceptor means is evidence that you've never really paid attention to how to fit and fly them. I hope I can convince you to change for the better:

I've always tried to share what I've learned across the years from many groups, including Podla, Agony, and Feign. My bio has a link that will provide you with the interceptor fits you need to become someone a bit less uninteresting :)

Or you could clicky here: http://i.imgur.com/WlTixDc.png

C-137 wrote:
http://pastebin.com/raw/H2S7s4YC Applied dps by % means nothing. 25% applied damage is still 825 dps.


The fact that you were able to extrapolate a number from my math means it was effective at presenting you a fact.

These numbers are provided with no commentary, just a simplified view that you may use against or for your argument. I will not argue with you wether they are balanced or not, just give you the facts.- You're welcome!
C-137
C3 Corporation
#505 - 2016-06-23 11:10:30 UTC
Crazy Vania wrote:
C-137 wrote:

Your Carrier pilot must be **** if he cannot kill you in an interceptor

Edit: This guy is full of ****. 5 km/s , 5k EHP, 3 Points, on a Mael? So he has faction Scram, so hes within 20 km, so Fighters reach him before he locks them, so hes full of ****.


The fact that you don't understand what 3pts interceptor means is evidence that you've never really paid attention to how to fit and fly them. I hope I can convince you to change for the better:

I've always tried to share what I've learned across the years from many groups, including Podla, Agony, and Feign. My bio has a link that will provide you with the interceptor fits you need to become someone a bit less uninteresting :)

Or you could clicky here: http://i.imgur.com/WlTixDc.png

C-137 wrote:
http://pastebin.com/raw/H2S7s4YC Applied dps by % means nothing. 25% applied damage is still 825 dps.


The fact that you were able to extrapolate a number from my math means it was effective at presenting you a fact.

These numbers are provided with no commentary, just a simplified view that you may use against or for your argument. I will not argue with you wether they are balanced or not, just give you the facts.- You're welcome!


All of those inties fight within 12k range. Good luck staying within range going 5km/s. Also Fighters travel that distance in less than 1s, faster than you can lock. In that time, I can have 1x Fighter, 1x Web Fighter, 1x Scram fighter on you, and you will die in 30s.

Your post shows nothing.
Crazy Vania
EM Program for Training and Youth
#506 - 2016-06-23 11:13:51 UTC
C-137 wrote:

All of those inties fight within 12k range.


Incorrect.

Try again :)
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#507 - 2016-06-23 11:14:02 UTC
sisi fight.

GO
C-137
C3 Corporation
#508 - 2016-06-23 11:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Crazy Vania wrote:
C-137 wrote:

All of those inties fight within 12k range.


Incorrect.

Try again :)


So you have 1 point strenth instead of 3... Ok. The fighters will reach out to 30km just as you lock them, at which point they have you webbed, and they don't need their WMD anymore. You sitll die. You can PM me if you want I can log onto SiSi and wreck your Inties for you to see if you want.
The Receptionist
Novartis Corporation.
#509 - 2016-06-23 11:18:57 UTC
Step 1) Make carriers great again
Step 2) Hit them with the nerf bat until you see grey matter spewing out.
Step 3) ??????
Step 4) Anger your fan base (as usual) with stupid decisions.
Crazy Vania
EM Program for Training and Youth
#510 - 2016-06-23 11:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy Vania
C-137 wrote:


So you have 1 point strenth instead of 3... Ok. The fighters will reach out to 30km just as you lock them, at which point they have you webbed, and they don't need their WMD anymore. You sitll die. You can PM me if you want I can log onto SiSi and wreck your Inties for you to see if you want.


*sigh* 3pts means Disruptor+Scram. Why did I have to spell it out for you :(

The disruptor keeps you pointed at 30. The scram keeps your dromis and cenobytes 13km away.

I am available to demonstrate this to you on sisi if you really really want. But you'll have to be a little more reasonable and pleasant than you have been so far.

Quote:
In that time, I can have 1x Fighter, 1x Web Fighter, 1x Scram fighter on you, and you will die in 30s.


A single carrier can only field 1 support drone at all time. No existing drone mechanics allow to scram subcapitals (only point).

Are you sure you're a carrier pilot trying to argue from their perspective? You seem a little bit removed from reality :)
Fyt 284
Requiem Eternal Holdings
#511 - 2016-06-23 11:44:37 UTC
Crazy Vania wrote:
Are you sure you're a carrier pilot trying to argue from their perspective? You seem a little bit removed from reality :)


He has admitted in this thread he is not a carrier pilot, and has frankly been unpleasant to anyone who holds the view that the changes make carriers ****.
NaK'Lin
Seamen Force
#512 - 2016-06-23 11:58:56 UTC
Fyt 284 wrote:
Crazy Vania wrote:
Are you sure you're a carrier pilot trying to argue from their perspective? You seem a little bit removed from reality :)


He has admitted in this thread he is not a carrier pilot, and has frankly been unpleasant to anyone who holds the view that the changes make carriers ****.

John Snow, then. But less cool.

On a side-note, will be accumulating more number data on other ship-types and hulls and keep posting them (not sure if it will help). It so seems that a the overall nerf to alpha + application + NSA + scrammable fighters (why the bombers? They're so slow by themselves already, they'll die. it's not fun being a plex cannon and shooting out 1-2Bil isk everytime you take out a supercarrier, even if you win) is too much of a killer combination.

I think Evelgrivion made a good point where if the fighters apply worse (worse tracking) during their burn from the main gun because of overspeed and the alpha spikes of the missile salvos get's lowered a bit in favor of more salvos, it should fix almost all the troubles. That and disallow remote sebo and/or sebo with NSA active.
That would be a good starting point, imho.
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
Central Omni Galactic Group
#513 - 2016-06-23 12:54:55 UTC
For me carriers have been in a rut as a DPS ship for as long as I've been able to fly one - there was almost never a situation I could take a dps carrier into.

Suddenly Citadels brings carriers some much needed love - and sits them at a very niche spot in nullsec PVP - that of an anti-subcap capital ship.

Suddenly ceptor pilots who'd enjoyed their uncatchable elite pvp roam machines were getting caught - because they don't fit tank and rely on kiteability - they were getting alpha'd off the grid.

This seemed to be reflected in the sudden uptick in Carrier dps and usage. This wasn't a sign that carriers were OP - just that they're hard countering a very over-used PVP style. Suddenly ceptors weren't perfectly safe to roam in picking and choosing fights.

The solution - to me would be to fit a little more buffer to my interceptors and frigs. But instead - people complained that they were getting alpha'd. Suddenly they weren't able to be immune to a carrier while dropping bombers, or 50 man ceptor gangs on them. Carriers are not invincible to the average pilot in the game at the moment. But - attacking one would have moderate risk and was no longer risk free.

The lock speeds for a carrier are ridiculous for sure - the nerfs seem appropriate to a degree - instalocking pods with a carrier is silly.

But - from what I'm reading and hearing from people who've ran the numbers - carriers after this will no longer be able to scratch ceptors or smallgang frigs - they no longer counter kiting meta - which has been the go to meta and gives advantage to the guys first on grid.
C-137
C3 Corporation
#514 - 2016-06-23 13:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Crazy Vania wrote:


A single carrier can only field 1 support drone at all time. No existing drone mechanics allow to scram subcapitals (only point).

Are you sure you're a carrier pilot trying to argue from their perspective? You seem a little bit removed from reality :)


So Super Carriers do not exist? Waiting on your PM for SiSi testing still... Also I use scram as a hold over from the old days before MWD would be shut off. The days when real nano kite existed.
Crazy Vania
EM Program for Training and Youth
#515 - 2016-06-23 13:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy Vania
C-137 wrote:
Crazy Vania wrote:


A single carrier can only field 1 support drone at all time. No existing drone mechanics allow to scram subcapitals (only point).

Are you sure you're a carrier pilot trying to argue from their perspective? You seem a little bit removed from reality :)


So Super Carriers do not exist? Waiting on your PM for SiSi testing still... Also I use scram as a hold over from the old days before MWD would be shut off. The days when real nano kite existed.


Moving the goalpost ? I havent done any super testing.

I'm on sisi right now, testing more stuff with a friend. You can contact me there if you want? But the aforementioned clause about being a bit more reasonable and pleasant has not been filled, so I'm not promising anything.
C-137
C3 Corporation
#516 - 2016-06-23 13:33:42 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Crazy Vania wrote:
C-137 wrote:
Crazy Vania wrote:


A single carrier can only field 1 support drone at all time. No existing drone mechanics allow to scram subcapitals (only point).

Are you sure you're a carrier pilot trying to argue from their perspective? You seem a little bit removed from reality :)


So Super Carriers do not exist? Waiting on your PM for SiSi testing still... Also I use scram as a hold over from the old days before MWD would be shut off. The days when real nano kite existed.


Moving the goalpost ? I havent done any super testing.

I'm on sisi right now, testing more stuff with a friend. You can contact me there of you want? But the aforementioned clause about being a bit more reasonable and pleasant has not been filled, so I'm not promising anything.


More ad-hominem attacks? Well played sir. Glad to see your forum character is thin skinned and illogical. I have posted more evidence and actual SiSi results in this thread than anyone else. Where is your log showing your interceptor combat? Where is your zealot tanking a carrier? I didn't think so.

Again this isn't about ship fits, its about the fighters.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#517 - 2016-06-23 13:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Please just fight already Smile


I'd be real interested to see the results.
Crazy Vania
EM Program for Training and Youth
#518 - 2016-06-23 13:50:42 UTC
I'm on Sisi. I'm waiting :) Crazy Vania ingame mate! Convo me and I'll /moveme wherever.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#519 - 2016-06-23 14:09:56 UTC
Crazy Vania wrote:
Can a Carrier on sisi kill a single interceptor? No.
Can it force the interceptor to drop the point? Yes, after approx 60 seconds, but not using Cenobytes or Fighters or Grams, but using 2x Heavy neuts, just like any old battleship.

The reason is: I can scram whatever support drone the carrier throws at me at 13km (cenobyte range is 10 I think) and I can survive the Einrehjis by just tanking the light amount of damage they'll do before their MWD turns off and I orbit away. All the while keeping point on the carrier.

Cenobite II has 10km optimal and 5km falloff. And you're a really good ceptor pilot if you can actually do what you claim.

Crazy Vania wrote:
Is this acceptable? I don't know... I don't think so?

I think it is acceptable. A good (excellent?) ceptor pilot should be able to tackle a carrier that is ****-fit (t1 support drones only), ratting unaligned, not paying attention on local and intel channels - and hold it tackled for the whooping 60 seconds.

Crazy Vania wrote:
Before Citadels, a combat fitted carrier could wipe me out in 10 seconds with a flight of 10-15 warriors.

Before Citadel, a carrier with whatever fit they could come up with, could do nothing to a half-decent interdictor. Now I get dry in a second even if it's 1x heavy neut and then die horribly in my own bubble. Doesnt look like it will change after this patch goes live, but I'm fine with that, just for the record.
NaK'Lin
Seamen Force
#520 - 2016-06-23 14:14:53 UTC
C-137 wrote:
Crazy Vania wrote:


A single carrier can only field 1 support drone at all time. No existing drone mechanics allow to scram subcapitals (only point).

Are you sure you're a carrier pilot trying to argue from their perspective? You seem a little bit removed from reality :)


So Super Carriers do not exist? Waiting on your PM for SiSi testing still... Also I use scram as a hold over from the old days before MWD would be shut off. The days when real nano kite existed.

Just out of curiosity, in which scenario in your world would you send in a solo ceptor to tackle a supercarrier, rather than a HIC or a DIC???