Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I'll preface this by saying this is about Falcons. Yes I have one, no I haven't lost it yet. But... I've only flown it on one fleet op, after which I decided the 250m isk (a lot for me, sadly) was not worth risking in the circumstances.

I'll also say this isn't meant to be about ECM... inherently that will come up, because... Falcon. The intent however is to address the disparities between the Falcon and other Force Recon ships.

This thread is about the staying power of a Falcon, relative to other Force Recon ships.

To start, lets get it out of the way. ECM, Painting, Disruption, RSD, and Neuts are all different and have their place. Relying on your EWAR for tank is all fine and well, except when your tank is RNG. Would be like asking combat ships if they'd be okay with their resistance mods working 50% of the time.

"The" mechanic that ECM uses we can just assume is something balanced, and as 100% as RSD, TD, and Neuting. I don't know what it is and this thread isn't meant to be about what could fix ECM. Heck maybe you think ECM is just fine the way it is. Perhaps it is.

The Falcon, regardless of ECM, is not okay the way it is. Not relative to other force recons.

Arazu - RSD - Fitting two scripted RSDs will reduce the target's range to a pittance of what it was. With just 3 damps, all snipers are effectively worthless. Remaining modules can go towards dps, tank, and tackle.

Pilgrim - neuting - Perhaps one of the most effective (because cap is life...) the Pilgrim can fit neuts in its high slots, leaving lots of room in mid and low for tank, tackle, and dps. Can bring many ships to their knees very quickly.

Rapier - Paint and Web - High utility, good for dealing with kitey ships (assuming you can catch them). Again, 2 or 3 mid slots and the rest can go to tank, tackle, and dps. Or they can fit bonused weapon disruptors for more utility.

Falcon - ECM - 100% bricks ships that it lays it's sights on. If the jams land. If they don't, they are 100% unaffected. 3 Racial jammers is all fine and well (assuming you know what you'll be fighting), however you must also devote low slots and rigs towards amplifying the strength or you'll miss far more often than you land. More often than not you must rainbow fit your jammers. No tank, no dps, no tackle.

The problem here is that all of the other force recons can fit tank. The Falcon cannot. All of the other force recons have some guaranteed utility. The Falcon does not.

All of these ships have niche roles. The problem is a Falcon cannot fill its role, because as soon as you uncloak, you get the distinct privilege of being primary. Since you have no tank, if you aren't pre-aligned (which you should be...) you get blapped before logi can do anything to help. I like attention, and I have no problems losing a ship. I'd rather do something with that ship before I get volleyed however.

Suggestions:
1) Do away with racial jammers. Burst Jammers are a thing and they are not racial. Either that or add racial variants for other EWAR, to balance out all the force/combat recons (I can hear those pilots screaming NO already).
2) Let Falcons fit some tank by giving ECM a lower effect and a higher chance to apply that effect (such as 100%).


Again, this is not meant to be a discussion about how to fix ECM. I recognize the topic goes hand in hand with Falcons, and that it is relevant to letting the Falcon fix tank. It is meant to be about balancing Falcons with other Force Recons.

The same arguments would apply to the Rook and Combat Recons, however the Rook can be used as a straight combat ship with decent effectiveness, so I won't complain about that ship.

Not everything is a fleet ship, you know that right?

I should have been a bit more specific I guess. I know that people love ECM (in that they either love to use it or love to hate it). I know that there's a frothy argument about whether ECM is broken or not.

The intent was not to start another ECM fight, but rather to showcase that the Falcon currently suffers due to ECM's implementation. As acknowledged in my OP, the reason the Falcon cannot fit a tank is because it has to devote so many modules to ECM; by necessity ECM needs to change to allow that to change.


Right, not a fleet ship. Certainly not a solo ship either though. The other force recons can certainly do solo pvp, and they are often effectively used in fleet ops. I merely seek to see a place for Falcons in with the other ships of their class. It feels to me like CCP often encourages large fleet battles over 1v1 or small gank groups.



I agree that some missiles would be in better keeping with Caldari ships, especially since they are not going to use cap, which is pretty important for an ECM boat. Do you not feel that a lack of buffer/active tank should not warrant at least a reliable ewar tank?

Yeah i have one of those too.

Ok, then train for another Recon that works for you and your gameplay. Falcons are all about breaking lock. Even in fleet ops, if it can jam logis for 1 cycle, those logis are dead.

ECM too stronk a mechanic already as is. Falcons are all about prepositioning or fielding at proper distances. If you cannot afford losing a Falcon, get a griffin / kitsune. These are nasty ships too

I fly blackbirds and griffins every chance I get :) Just not so keen to get blapped until the ship has at least lost its "new ship smell".

I will experiment with fitting fewer ECM modules, our corp does occasionally do blops fleets, so I'd definitely have time to do a mobile refit prior to jumping in. In the circumstances though, extra tank wouldn't be needed for blops cause you'll be blapping something which generally doesn't have support. In that case, jamming them out makes more sense.

My thoughts lie more towards fleet ops. But as you and others have said... don't use them for fleet ops. Kinda makes me sad.

I remember when falcons were Overpowered. You could sit at 80 plus KM and perma jam 2-3 ships with it. People complained about it. So they nerfed ECM and retooled the falcon and rook. The rook was suppose to be a brawler and the falcon was suppose to be a heavy jammer with a paper tank was the idea.

OP: your complaint about how ECM is not inline with other ewar is not taking into account that other ewar makes you less effective, ECM completely nullifies you in a fight. Even if you get 1 jam cycle you take someone out of a fight for 20 plus seconds. You take out a critical ship such as a logi and it could sway the battle.


Also i dont think you are properly fitting. As it was mentioned a rainbow fit isnt always the best tactic. In fact being a jack of all jams makes you a master of none. If you armor tank it you can get a 35k omni tank and can perma jam 2-3 ships which is perfectly fine. And honestly if you are flying anything but DPS you will likely have a short lifespan in any engagements if it goes south for your side. Thats what SRPs are for.

The rook has the same issue. You can fit ECM or tank. Granted you can fit less ECM and "some" tank, perhaps solid buffer (I'll claim ignorance as I've never actually flown a Rook), but ECM and tank are again an either/or unless you want useless ECM or a useless tank.

ECM requires many different modules to be effective.


When you're in small group, you don't really know what you'll be fighting. Heck maybe you'll be the one that runs into a gate camp.

If you're doing blops and you have time to do a refit before you jump in, sure it makes sense to stack a racial. But what if you don't know what race you'll be fighting?

Honestly, looking at it, I'd rather have an XLASB over a big plate; those signal dispersion amps are critical to landing jams from my own limited experience.