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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Was the destruction of Nouvelle Rouvenor necessary?

Author
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#161 - 2016-06-07 22:49:52 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Terrorists identify themselves as terrorists when asked?

Ugh

Of course.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#162 - 2016-06-07 22:54:29 UTC
Doesn't revealing that your a terrorist kinda stop you from performing terrorist acts? Giving up the element of surprise and such? Not to mention if your fighting for a cause your not a terrorist your a soldier. (Not in the sense your obviously used to with training and ranks I mean more along the lines of fighting for a cause as opposed to fighting for..... Ugh.... Chaos)
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#163 - 2016-06-07 22:58:31 UTC
Kimmy's logic is infallible. Do not question it. Of course a terrorist would Identity themselfs as terrorists, I mean, every Gallente that she's ever accused of terrorism has done such.... right?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#164 - 2016-06-07 23:02:31 UTC
Well....... It could be some cultural thing, never know...
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2016-06-08 01:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Deitra Vess wrote:
Well....... It could be some cultural thing, never know...


Probably because it's trendy at the time. The common Gallentean is a fashion and trend victim. There was this one time a Sani Sabik derivative became immensely popular with thousands of Gallenteans as members. All they do, however, is dress like, well, pale pontiffs and such, drink lots of red juice and act like cartoon villains. This went on for about a month before they decided that dressing up as Heth was 'the ****'.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#166 - 2016-06-08 02:08:46 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Well....... It could be some cultural thing, never know...


Probably because it's trendy at the time. The common Gallentean is a fashion and trend victim. There was this one time a Sani Sabik derivative became immensely popular with thousands of Gallenteans as members. All they do, however, is dress like, well, pale pontiffs and such, drink lots of red juice and act like cartoon villains. This went on for about a month before they decided that dressing up as Heth was 'the ****'.

I kinda miss the heth days. They were..... Well...... Let's not go there.....
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2016-06-08 02:49:47 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Terrorists identify themselves as terrorists when asked?

Ugh

Of course.


Oh honey no.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Aradina Varren
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#168 - 2016-06-08 02:54:11 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Terrorists identify themselves as terrorists when asked?

Ugh

Of course.


You.. Uh.. How? How have you not died yet? How did you not drop yourself on your head as a baby?

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2016-06-08 03:17:30 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Well....... It could be some cultural thing, never know...


Probably because it's trendy at the time. The common Gallentean is a fashion and trend victim. There was this one time a Sani Sabik derivative became immensely popular with thousands of Gallenteans as members. All they do, however, is dress like, well, pale pontiffs and such, drink lots of red juice and act like cartoon villains. This went on for about a month before they decided that dressing up as Heth was 'the ****'.

I kinda miss the heth days. They were..... Well...... Let's not go there.....


If I recall the first time some Gallentean had the bright idea of parading around in a Heth costume just a month after Enturrer's execution, the Black Eagles came down on the whole group of Provist cosplayers hard. After what looked to be the third time this had happened they finally decided to stop that highly visible crackdown and just make people disappear instead.

Fast forward to Roden's administration and him making it very clear that what the Black Eagles did was not okay and people were back to dressing up as Provists again. For a month at least.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#170 - 2016-06-08 03:52:18 UTC
TIL I should follow Gallente cosplay politics. Even better than the mindclash idol rumor mill.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Karina Ivanovich
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2016-06-08 03:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Karina Ivanovich
Deitra Vess wrote:
Doesn't revealing that your a terrorist kinda stop you from performing terrorist acts? Giving up the element of surprise and such? Not to mention if your fighting for a cause your not a terrorist your a soldier. (Not in the sense your obviously used to with training and ranks I mean more along the lines of fighting for a cause as opposed to fighting for..... Ugh.... Chaos)


What element of surprise? The only terrorists that have ever hurt my people on a large scale were wearing uniforms. Gallente Naval Uniforms to be specific.

Some call me insane. If the universe is sane, then I embrace that label.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#172 - 2016-06-08 04:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Deitra Vess
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Doesn't revealing that your a terrorist kinda stop you from performing terrorist acts? Giving up the element of surprise and such? Not to mention if your fighting for a cause your not a terrorist your a soldier. (Not in the sense your obviously used to with training and ranks I mean more along the lines of fighting for a cause as opposed to fighting for..... Ugh.... Chaos)


What element of surprise? The only terrorists that have ever hurt my people on a large scale were wearing uniforms. Gallente Naval Uniforms to be specific.

Oh it's quite simple, if your a terrorist and identify yourself as being an enemy to the people your attacking beforehand how is it supposed to be a terrorist action? That would just be an assault. Element of surprise is kinda key. Haven't you noticed after most terrorist attacks the aggressor makes a statement claiming responsibility after the attack? If its clear who attacked then how is it terrorism? The reasoning was well known when the drop ships landed. The gallantes who attacked your people weren't terrorists, they were soldiers fighting a war. They made their point clear right from the get go. Your people saw them and knew to run, those who died, well... The Amarr in a church that was randomly firebombed didn't see it coming. That was a terrorist action. Whether or not I agree with it being right or not is irrelevant but in every sense of the word THAT is terrorism.
Karina Ivanovich
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2016-06-08 05:16:28 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Doesn't revealing that your a terrorist kinda stop you from performing terrorist acts? Giving up the element of surprise and such? Not to mention if your fighting for a cause your not a terrorist your a soldier. (Not in the sense your obviously used to with training and ranks I mean more along the lines of fighting for a cause as opposed to fighting for..... Ugh.... Chaos)


What element of surprise? The only terrorists that have ever hurt my people on a large scale were wearing uniforms. Gallente Naval Uniforms to be specific.

Oh it's quite simple, if your a terrorist and identify yourself as being an enemy to the people your attacking beforehand how is it supposed to be a terrorist action? That would just be an assault. Element of surprise is kinda key. Haven't you noticed after most terrorist attacks the aggressor makes a statement claiming responsibility after the attack? If its clear who attacked then how is it terrorism? The reasoning was well known when the drop ships landed. The gallantes who attacked your people weren't terrorists, they were soldiers fighting a war. They made their point clear right from the get go. Your people saw them and knew to run, those who died, well... The Amarr in a church that was randomly firebombed didn't see it coming. That was a terrorist action. Whether or not I agree with it being right or not is irrelevant but in every sense of the word THAT is terrorism.


Soldiers don't intentionally kill civilians Deitra. That is what terrorists do.

Some call me insane. If the universe is sane, then I embrace that label.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#174 - 2016-06-08 05:58:26 UTC
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Doesn't revealing that your a terrorist kinda stop you from performing terrorist acts? Giving up the element of surprise and such? Not to mention if your fighting for a cause your not a terrorist your a soldier. (Not in the sense your obviously used to with training and ranks I mean more along the lines of fighting for a cause as opposed to fighting for..... Ugh.... Chaos)


What element of surprise? The only terrorists that have ever hurt my people on a large scale were wearing uniforms. Gallente Naval Uniforms to be specific.

Oh it's quite simple, if your a terrorist and identify yourself as being an enemy to the people your attacking beforehand how is it supposed to be a terrorist action? That would just be an assault. Element of surprise is kinda key. Haven't you noticed after most terrorist attacks the aggressor makes a statement claiming responsibility after the attack? If its clear who attacked then how is it terrorism? The reasoning was well known when the drop ships landed. The gallantes who attacked your people weren't terrorists, they were soldiers fighting a war. They made their point clear right from the get go. Your people saw them and knew to run, those who died, well... The Amarr in a church that was randomly firebombed didn't see it coming. That was a terrorist action. Whether or not I agree with it being right or not is irrelevant but in every sense of the word THAT is terrorism.


Soldiers don't intentionally kill civilians Deitra. That is what terrorists do.


Soldiers do kill civilians if they are ordered to. As for why, either it's bad intel or command knows something and aren't telling.

Does not make it any less excusable.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#175 - 2016-06-08 07:29:48 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Doesn't revealing that your a terrorist kinda stop you from performing terrorist acts? Giving up the element of surprise and such? Not to mention if your fighting for a cause your not a terrorist your a soldier. (Not in the sense your obviously used to with training and ranks I mean more along the lines of fighting for a cause as opposed to fighting for..... Ugh.... Chaos)

First, terrorist is a soldier, and second, Ms. Vess, I am afraid you are mistaken a terrorist with a saboteur or diversant. It is a job of a diversant to have an element of surprise, to destroy a target without being noticed. Terrorist's job is to inflict fear and panic with their actions. Terrorists destroy targets not by military value, but by public value. Their actions are targeted to cause public resonance instead of supporting military advances. I think closest thing you can think are freedom fighters with their infamous motto "Fear the tribes". This is a typical terrorist approach, and it is not surprising taking into account that both freedom fighters and terrorists are unprofessional military troops.

And third, even more professional soldier than a terrorist won't tell you his occupation if they are hostile to you. On the other hand, if terrorists are from the same camp of yours, and especially if you outrank them, of course they will tell you their occupation. It's just like asking a capsuleer if he is a pilot.

Caldari State doesn't though employ terrorist squads and we don't use terror doctrine in military operations (unlike Minmatars with their "Fear the Tribes" thing), because it is unprofessional, it is waste of resources, and terror is considered a poor man's war. Returning to Templis Dragonaurs, they aren't part of State military forces, so they pretty much can be terrorists by themselves since they don't have to follow our doctrines.

But because they are still our people and fight for our State, a person like Mr. Tuulinen could indeed simply asked them if they are terrorists or not to recieve plain answer.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#176 - 2016-06-08 12:46:58 UTC
I got to agree with Elmund on this one, and Diana those are actually really good points I didn't think of, my bad.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2016-06-08 13:18:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Doesn't revealing that your a terrorist kinda stop you from performing terrorist acts? Giving up the element of surprise and such? Not to mention if your fighting for a cause your not a terrorist your a soldier. (Not in the sense your obviously used to with training and ranks I mean more along the lines of fighting for a cause as opposed to fighting for..... Ugh.... Chaos)


What element of surprise? The only terrorists that have ever hurt my people on a large scale were wearing uniforms. Gallente Naval Uniforms to be specific.

Oh it's quite simple, if your a terrorist and identify yourself as being an enemy to the people your attacking beforehand how is it supposed to be a terrorist action? That would just be an assault. Element of surprise is kinda key. Haven't you noticed after most terrorist attacks the aggressor makes a statement claiming responsibility after the attack? If its clear who attacked then how is it terrorism? The reasoning was well known when the drop ships landed. The gallantes who attacked your people weren't terrorists, they were soldiers fighting a war. They made their point clear right from the get go. Your people saw them and knew to run, those who died, well... The Amarr in a church that was randomly firebombed didn't see it coming. That was a terrorist action. Whether or not I agree with it being right or not is irrelevant but in every sense of the word THAT is terrorism.


Soldiers don't intentionally kill civilians Deitra. That is what terrorists do.


Soldiers do kill civilians if they are ordered to. As for why, either it's bad intel or command knows something and aren't telling.

Does not make it any less excusable.


Once you deliberately butcher civilians, you're a terrorist. Terrorism is a tricky word to define, but I think the most fair, uncolored definition would be "the use of violence and intimidation against civilians in the pursuit of political aims." Soldiers are promoting their nation-state, which is a political aim. They are not definitionally exempt from being terrorists.

Diana actually seems to be sort of right on this one. The line between terrorist and freedom fighter is very thin. Two different people can look at the same act of terror/liberation, one can say "That is a terrorist" the other can say "That is a freedom fighter", and it'd be hard to unambiguously tell who is more accurate. I think the only fair way of distinguishing a terrorist from a freedom fighter is the method. Everyone thinks they're fighting for freedom, so the goal isn't enough. You need to deliberately avoid civilian casualties and do your best to promote the general welfare of the population during the struggle if you want to be known as a freedom fighter.

However, Diana is definitely still naive to think the Dragonaurs would see themselves as terrorists, it's not how the human mind works. The Dragonaurs probably see themselves as cultural preservers or even freedom fighters. I very highly doubt they would view themselves as terrorists even if they are/were. It's not in our nature, save psychopaths and sociopaths, to want to be a terrorist, so our minds would try to rationalize our actions if we were. There's a reason "the greater good" is such an old cliche. It's a comforting lie that tyrants tell themselves to justify their actions.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#178 - 2016-06-08 13:51:05 UTC
It would also matter which side of the fight you're on as to who uses what label for you.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#179 - 2016-06-08 14:55:16 UTC
Terrorist isn't a label, it is occupation.

Only ignorants and idiots use it as insult or label.

Shaming peoples for being a terrorist is same as shaming cooks.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#180 - 2016-06-08 14:56:09 UTC
How do you function?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.