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The orca dilema
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Kaning Olacar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2016-05-27 03:29:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaning Olacar
So with the new changes coming soon to the rorq I figured something should be said about the Orca.

Currently just as the rorq sees very little use outside of a pos....the orca just doesn't have a place to be outside of a pos in High sec. While in High sec it is flatly outclassed by other ships that are more specialized......the Bowhead has a vastly superior ship hangar.....and freighters are far better at general cargo capacity. (the problems that an orca has in null/low should be pretty self evident)

Now i don't pretend to know what is best for EVE or that i know anything better than ccp does, but if you are going to modify the role of the rorq......then it stands to reason that the orca, which is in just as poor a state as its larger cousin would also stand to gain from a change.

Now as it would be inappropriate to give criticism without offering a potential solution, might i suggest the fallowing.
Make the orca and the rorqual similar to the setup of carriers/super carriers.....allow the orca to recieve large buffs to its mining capabilities....perhaps the ability to launch a lesser number of the new mining drones, or a massive bonus to the mining amount/speed of normal mining drones.


Please feel free to reply with opinions or better suggestions below.

PS. I live in null.....and so does my orca ust an fyi
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2016-05-27 03:48:48 UTC
I think you are looking at the Orca through the prism of null-sec and mining too much.


While the Orca does not have the cargo capacity of a Freighter or the ship capacity of a Bowhead, it does have a use as an "all-rounder."

Need to move a small amount of assembled and fitted ships? Orca.
Need to move around a decent amount of cargo but don't want to buy a Deep Space Transport? Orca.
Need to do both at the same time? Orca.

It can also be used as a bait / lol-Command Ship (yes... this has been done... it is quite effective as long as you have the element of surprise and logi ready to save the day).

And yes, I have one myself. It never sits in a POS. It is too busy moving products around high-sec for trading and delivering moderately sized supplies for Fluffers here in low-sec.



Also... despite how the Orca is classified in the market tabs, it is not a true capital. It does not require capital skills and uses large rigs.
It is more "battleship size" than anything else.

How did you Veterans start?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#3 - 2016-05-27 03:50:56 UTC
Kaning Olacar wrote:
...Now i don't pretend to know what is best for EVE or that i know anything better...


Yeah, I kinda got that.

Answer this, why do you think the Orca is a command ship and what should a mining foreman command ship do?

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#4 - 2016-05-27 04:14:26 UTC
Wait if the orca is in add bad a place as the rorq why do I see them everywhere?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
darkneko
Come And Get Your Love
#5 - 2016-05-27 04:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: darkneko
Kaning Olacar wrote:
So with the new changes coming soon to the rorq I figured something should be said about the Orca.

Currently just as the rorq sees very little use outside of a pos....the orca just doesn't have a place to be outside of a pos in High sec. While in High sec it is flatly outclassed by other ships that are more specialized......the Bowhead has a vastly superior ship hangar.....and freighters are far better at general cargo capacity. (the problems that an orca has in null/low should be pretty self evident)

Now as it would be inappropriate to give criticism without offering a potential solution, might i suggest the fallowing.
Make the orca and the rorqual similar to the setup of carriers/super carriers.....allow the orca to recieve large buffs to its mining capabilities....perhaps the ability to launch a lesser number of the new mining drones, or a massive bonus to the mining amount/speed of normal mining drones.

PS. I live in null.....and so does my orca ust an fyi


While giving the orca limited use of the new mining drones seams like an interesting idea I don't think it needs nearly as much love as the rorqual does.

As the others have said it is not a true capital so you can easily use it anywhere in high sec and I often see them in belts acting as a cargo buff or for refiting. And they can be used for plenty of other things (as previously stated )

The rorqual on the other hand lost everything that made it unique over time...
Orca came out: no longer the only ship that had great mining boosts and the orca doesn't need fuel for full boost
Compression module came out: no more need to use a rorqual that sat at a pos using extra fuel
Citadel release : you now have a more easily defended jump clone staging area with docking and private hangars.

So limiting the new changes to the rorqual just make sense.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#6 - 2016-05-27 12:18:41 UTC
The only thing id change about the orca is a bigger ore bay since we changed the rettie and mack.

Perhaps huge mining ops would use more specialised ships, but hi-sec doesn't see many of those, so the orca doing several jobs whilst taking up only one account has benefits.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2016-05-27 12:37:05 UTC
how much more ore do you need to hold? you can already get nearly 200km3....

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The 16.8km Bubble
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#8 - 2016-05-27 17:07:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarisen Gream
The Rorqual had its role bonuses stolen by other space trash.
The Orcs is maybe to much of a jack of all trades, which is what makes it great and bad at the same time.

I am still personally in the mindset that all boost, combat and mining, should at the lowest level be attached to destroyers and BC size hulls (capital ships are the next step up for combat but not mining). There needs to be a ORE industrial hull (t1 and t2) that take over the boosting and add to the fleets defenses in the belt.

Then that gives room for the Orca and Rorqual to do what they should be doing, providing the fitting service, ship storage, ore storage/hauling and use of new capital mining drones. In the end, you have one booster/defender, and a miner/hauler as the two key members of a mining fleet with everyone else being mindless mining monkeys. It would also support on grid boost to a much better level.

Edit : for those who mine in high-sec and are thinking now I need to toons to do what one toon used to do. Not really, if done right it just becomes an evolution for your booster to stay as a booster and one of your mining alts to train into the orca hull while not sacrificeing any yield and gaining hauling abilites.

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darkneko
Come And Get Your Love
#9 - 2016-05-27 17:22:39 UTC  |  Edited by: darkneko
Amarisen Gream wrote:
The Rorqual had its role bonuses stolen by other space trash.
The Orcs is maybe to much of a jack of all trades, which is what makes it great and bad at the same time.

I am still personally in the mindset that all boost, combat and mining, should at the lowest level be attached to destroyers and BC size hulls (capital ships are the next step up for combat but not mining). There needs to be a ORE industrial hull (t1 and t2) that take over the boosting and add to the fleets defenses in the belt.

Then that gives room for the Orca and Rorqual to do what they should be doing, providing the fitting service, ship storage, ore storage/hauling and use of new capital mining drones. In the end, you have one booster/defender, and a miner/hauler as the two key members of a mining fleet with everyone else being mindless mining monkeys. It would also support on grid boost to a much better level.

Edit : for those who mine in high-sec and are thinking now I need to toons to do what one toon used to do. Not really, if done right it just becomes an evolution for your booster to stay as a booster and one of your mining alts to train into the orca hull while not sacrificeing any yield and gaining hauling abilites.


Can't agree with adding another ship at all just for booster, you can already use other command ships for mining boosting but if you want to take it away from orca and rorqual you would have to take it from carriers and titans with the "no capital boost " argument. You also don't really need another defense ship for high sec mining just adds one more alt to sit there.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2016-05-27 22:47:49 UTC
darkneko wrote:
Amarisen Gream wrote:
The Rorqual had its role bonuses stolen by other space trash.
The Orcs is maybe to much of a jack of all trades, which is what makes it great and bad at the same time.

I am still personally in the mindset that all boost, combat and mining, should at the lowest level be attached to destroyers and BC size hulls (capital ships are the next step up for combat but not mining). There needs to be a ORE industrial hull (t1 and t2) that take over the boosting and add to the fleets defenses in the belt.

Then that gives room for the Orca and Rorqual to do what they should be doing, providing the fitting service, ship storage, ore storage/hauling and use of new capital mining drones. In the end, you have one booster/defender, and a miner/hauler as the two key members of a mining fleet with everyone else being mindless mining monkeys. It would also support on grid boost to a much better level.

Edit : for those who mine in high-sec and are thinking now I need to toons to do what one toon used to do. Not really, if done right it just becomes an evolution for your booster to stay as a booster and one of your mining alts to train into the orca hull while not sacrificeing any yield and gaining hauling abilites.


Can't agree with adding another ship at all just for booster, you can already use other command ships for mining boosting but if you want to take it away from orca and rorqual you would have to take it from carriers and titans with the "no capital boost " argument. You also don't really need another defense ship for high sec mining just adds one more alt to sit there.


Agreed. another ship isnt needed.

Well, the Orca should be a step in to get into the rorqual. With the changes to the rorqual, giving the orca larger than normal mining drones makes sense (but not ones as big as the Rorq is getting.. possibly 2 more drone skills (Heavy mining drones, Mega Mining drones).

In comparison, increasing the Orca's ore hold makes sense (especially to keep it on grid longer as boosts will be grid based)
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2016-05-28 01:06:16 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how much more ore do you need to hold? you can already get nearly 200km3....


To get that capacity you have to fit cargo rigs and expander lows. Quite the sacrifice to tank and mobility. If you don't fit cargo mods your capacity is nearly halved. On the opposite side of things, the miasmos can be tanked with stabs or agility lows and gets 60k m3 regardless.

I'd like to double the orcas ore bay to 100k m3 and/or give it a per level boost to its ore bay. Just to make its capacity for ore less dependent on its fit much like it's competitors.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
darkneko
Come And Get Your Love
#12 - 2016-05-28 01:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: darkneko
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how much more ore do you need to hold? you can already get nearly 200km3....


To get that capacity you have to fit cargo rigs and expander lows. Quite the sacrifice to tank and mobility. If you don't fit cargo mods your capacity is nearly halved. On the opposite side of things, the miasmos can be tanked with stabs or agility lows and gets 60k m3 regardless.

I'd like to double the orcas ore bay to 100k m3 and/or give it a per level boost to its ore bay. Just to make its capacity for ore less dependent on its fit much like it's competitors.


Thanks to freighter changes just have one be your cargo runner
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#13 - 2016-05-28 01:55:55 UTC
darkneko wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
how much more ore do you need to hold? you can already get nearly 200km3....


To get that capacity you have to fit cargo rigs and expander lows. Quite the sacrifice to tank and mobility. If you don't fit cargo mods your capacity is nearly halved. On the opposite side of things, the miasmos can be tanked with stabs or agility lows and gets 60k m3 regardless.

With no Cargohold Expanders, the Orca has an overall hauling capacity of ~77,000 m3 (37k cargohold + 40k fleet hanger).

With Cargohold Expanders you have ~100,000 m3 of hauling capacity (~60k cargohold + 40k fleet hanger) PLUS an additional 50,000 m3 just for ore.

So if all you are doing is moving ore around... you potentially have between ~127,000 to 150,000 cubic meters of room.

Granted, the Orca moves like a whale compared to the Miasmos... but you are paying for more than just a glorified ore hauler (boosts, fitting service, ability to hold extra ships). So it evens out.
The Miasmos is good for only ONE thing. The Orca is good for MANY things.

How did you Veterans start?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#14 - 2016-05-28 03:05:48 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how much more ore do you need to hold? you can already get nearly 200km3....


To get that capacity you have to fit cargo rigs and expander lows. Quite the sacrifice to tank and mobility. If you don't fit cargo mods your capacity is nearly halved. On the opposite side of things, the miasmos can be tanked with stabs or agility lows and gets 60k m3 regardless.

I'd like to double the orcas ore bay to 100k m3 and/or give it a per level boost to its ore bay. Just to make its capacity for ore less dependent on its fit much like it's competitors.



whaaaat you need to make a choice?????


besides what are you doing with an orca use a freighter more tank and cargo

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#15 - 2016-05-28 19:13:59 UTC
Did I miss some change that made the Orca no longer be the top mining boosting ship?

Besides the ore hold is unaffected by modules so you can (and should) brick tank it.

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Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#16 - 2016-05-28 19:46:07 UTC
My Orca has never sat in a POS shield just boosting.

I got it as a working ship, on grid and boosting.

Warp to 30/40k, deploy an MTU while my other 2 accounts mine away in Hulks, take away the Ore when full, rinse and repeat.

Now with an Astrahaus in system I don't even have to put my Pos online anymore. The 1% tax easily overcomes the price of POS Fuel now.

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Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2016-05-28 21:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyia Suze Nagala
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The only thing id change about the orca is a bigger ore bay since we changed the rettie and mack.

Perhaps huge mining ops would use more specialised ships, but hi-sec doesn't see many of those, so the orca doing several jobs whilst taking up only one account has benefits.


Bigger ore bay definitely, up it to like 70k m3.

To answer the OP, the Orca is a perfect for running about 4 miners with it in high sec and doing mining ops support. You can't have a Roqual n High Sec so Orcas are your only good option for boosts. Everywhere else the Orca is only good for boosting from a POS.

I'm sorry roquals, orcas, it doesn't matter, they don't belong in belts outside of High sec. I think Roquals should get fighters before we start even talking about making it run around in belts, either that or ore anoms need to be scanable ( not readily showing on the probe screen ) again to buy it some time to get to safety.

Truthfully, between the ore bay improvement I mentioned, and maybe adding an extra low and maybe mid slot, I think the Orca is fine as it is now.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#18 - 2016-05-29 00:36:18 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



whaaaat you need to make a choice?????


besides what are you doing with an orca use a freighter more tank and cargo



In dangerous space I may be more inclined to use an orca over a miasmos if i wasnt hit so hard for fitting an mwd and tank. When you're hinting that the orca is obsolete as a hauler it suggests it could do with a buff. Id rather it not be relegated to a pure booster.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lugh Crow-Slave
#19 - 2016-05-29 01:09:57 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



whaaaat you need to make a choice?????


besides what are you doing with an orca use a freighter more tank and cargo



In dangerous space I may be more inclined to use an orca over a miasmos if i wasnt hit so hard for fitting an mwd and tank. When you're hinting that the orca is obsolete as a hauler it suggests it could do with a buff. Id rather it not be relegated to a pure booster.


Not saying it's obsolete is great for lower yield ops but w when it gets to the level that you need over 200km3 then a freighter is a better choice. That's like saying the Griffen is obsolete because the blackbird exists.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
darkneko
Come And Get Your Love
#20 - 2016-05-29 13:20:33 UTC
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The only thing id change about the orca is a bigger ore bay since we changed the rettie and mack.

Perhaps huge mining ops would use more specialised ships, but hi-sec doesn't see many of those, so the orca doing several jobs whilst taking up only one account has benefits.


Bigger ore bay definitely, up it to like 70k m3.

To answer the OP, the Orca is a perfect for running about 4 miners with it in high sec and doing mining ops support. You can't have a Roqual n High Sec so Orcas are your only good option for boosts. Everywhere else the Orca is only good for boosting from a POS.

I'm sorry roquals, orcas, it doesn't matter, they don't belong in belts outside of High sec. I think Roquals should get fighters before we start even talking about making it run around in belts, either that or ore anoms need to be scanable ( not readily showing on the probe screen ) again to buy it some time to get to safety.

Truthfully, between the ore bay improvement I mentioned, and maybe adding an extra low and maybe mid slot, I think the Orca is fine as it is now.


Giving them at least one fighter group and one mining fighter group would be great.
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