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Author
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2201 - 2016-05-16 19:35:15 UTC
Ember Niagara wrote:
CCP, your objective here is simply to get players to undock, right?
(And, presumably, a way to ease the pain for newbies training their core skill sets?)

Instead of a new shopping list of "kill this NPC! fit this thing!" like other MMOGs (which would feel mundane), I propose instead the principle of rewarding players for doing what they already do. Allocate SP based on actions we took during the day.

Method A: "Manual"
  • Every 24h, everyone gets a certain amount of Daily Unallocated SP. Not cumulative - unused Daily Unallocated SP do not carry over to the next day.
  • The game looks at your actions taken during the day and "unlocks" the ability to apply your Daily Unallocated to related skills after you do them. For example, if you turn on your Warp Drive, then you gain the ability to apply the skill points to Warp Drive Operation.
  • At the end of the day, the SP are applied to the skills of your choice.

Method B: "Automatic"
  • Every 24h, everyone gets a certain amount of Daily Unallocated SP. Not cumulative - unused Daily Unallocated SP do not carry over to the next day.
  • The game looks at your actions taken during the day and compiles a list of skills related to what you were doing.
  • At the end of the day, it automatically applies chunks of your Daily Unallocated to those skills you "used." For example, if you turned on your Warp Drive, then you gain SP to Warp Drive Operation.
  • If something is already Level 5, it skips that thing and applies the SP to something else.

Method C: "Semi-Automatic"
  • Same as "B" but only auto-applies the SP to skills that were in your Active Training Queue, which gives you control over what gets the bonus (if you don't want a particular skill to get the 24H bonus SP, pull it out of your skill queue before the end of the day).

IMO these methods above are more "EVE-like" -- they simulate the act of "learning by doing" (like in real life) without risking the "use gun / kill stuff 1000 times to level up" behavior of other MMOGs.


This is a great way to make sure vet will min/max it by understanding exactly how to work the most SP out of it while newbie who don't know better get less because they can't figure out the optimal way.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2202 - 2016-05-16 19:45:27 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:


I already have enough "daily tasks" in Eve. I am a corporation leader and FC. I also have normal, everyday things I want to do: PVP, PI, industry, exploration, etc. Every login is already like being pecked to death by baby ducks. "I'm bored. Can someone lead a roam?" "Hey, is my Naglfar ready yet?" "Can you light a cyno for me?" "Where is my courier contract now?" "Can you scout for the strat op tonight? I need scouts in HED-GP, PF-346, Obe, and H-PA29." And that's in a drama free corporation/alliance.


I think you are just not the intended target of this change. You already log in every day or close to it. They are more likely targeting week-end warrior or casuals logging in once a week or even less since they might get something new out of those. Seeing it as an "additional chore" sounds like you will subject yourself to something you dislike just because of the reward instead of just enjoying the game like you likely already do since you already on a daily basis. It's not about the daily but about the reward you don't want to pass up on.
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#2203 - 2016-05-16 20:01:15 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
Sorry bud, I think you and I have different visions of what is 'fun' to do in EvE. I'd much rather be bad at EvE and get blown up repeatedly than grind all day, every day for implants. The point is, I get far less SP than someone who logs in once a week.

I don't feel forced to have +5's to get equal SP than people who seldom play, so why do the same people feel 'forced' to log in, if this goes through, when the reality is they may still gain more SP than the average player by being logged out. It all just seems rather selfish.

Dailies won't solve your SP problem. I'm flying with +5 implants all the time. Most time I scan and explore combat signatures, so I'll get the SP reward bonus anyway. You'll never gonna catch me this way. This is known SP gap issue between PvP and PvEers (assuming you are pvper). Problem is CCP luring players by obvious reward that will become the goal not the tool. SPs are tool, why the hell we need them if our game is not fun (either pvp or pve).


That's is pretty much the argument, the only people that are concerned by this are ones that don't play the game that often. The average person playing daily isn't rolling around in +5's, are not playing Skillpoints Online and therefore will not be religiously running these dailies.

Sure, we'll do it a few times, but to think everyone will be logging in to solely do our daily is pretty naive.


If people don't log in to do it, then it is stupid and pointless. CCP is counting on people logging in to do this.

I play the game every day that I can. I also PVP in +5 implants. I don't like the precedent this sets with grinding for SP. I don't like being penalized on the days I cannot log in to the game. One of the fundamental things about Eve is that for years all you had to do to keep your character progressing was to keep subscribing. As someone in the military, that's a major draw. Now CCP appears to be taking major steps away from that model. And for what? For some bullshit ten minute daily logins that create another chore.

I already have enough "daily tasks" in Eve. I am a corporation leader and FC. I also have normal, everyday things I want to do: PVP, PI, industry, exploration, etc. Every login is already like being pecked to death by baby ducks. "I'm bored. Can someone lead a roam?" "Hey, is my Naglfar ready yet?" "Can you light a cyno for me?" "Where is my courier contract now?" "Can you scout for the strat op tonight? I need scouts in HED-GP, PF-346, Obe, and H-PA29." And that's in a drama free corporation/alliance.

CCP has done very little over the years to reduce the tedium of being a corporation/alliance leader. Those people make things happen and help keep others logging in. At this point in Eve, I mostly play for my corpmates. This is thirty minutes to an hour a day (five accounts) that I'll have to spend not generating things for others.


Genuine question, why would you feel the need to do this every day on 5 accounts?
Your corp alts already seem to be at the stage where they can do what is required of them, industry, hauling, scouting etc. Is a small amount of daily SP really going to change the roles you already use them for.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#2204 - 2016-05-16 23:17:55 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:


I already have enough "daily tasks" in Eve. I am a corporation leader and FC. I also have normal, everyday things I want to do: PVP, PI, industry, exploration, etc. Every login is already like being pecked to death by baby ducks. "I'm bored. Can someone lead a roam?" "Hey, is my Naglfar ready yet?" "Can you light a cyno for me?" "Where is my courier contract now?" "Can you scout for the strat op tonight? I need scouts in HED-GP, PF-346, Obe, and H-PA29." And that's in a drama free corporation/alliance.


I think you are just not the intended target of this change. You already log in every day or close to it. They are more likely targeting week-end warrior or casuals logging in once a week or even less since they might get something new out of those. Seeing it as an "additional chore" sounds like you will subject yourself to something you dislike just because of the reward instead of just enjoying the game like you likely already do since you already on a daily basis. It's not about the daily but about the reward you don't want to pass up on.

That right there is exactly the problem. The reward is too good to pass up, so a lot of us will feel pressured to do the chore each day instead of having fun.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2205 - 2016-05-16 23:25:50 UTC
T-Jay Charante wrote:


Genuine question, why would you feel the need to do this every day on 5 accounts?
Your corp alts already seem to be at the stage where they can do what is required of them, industry, hauling, scouting etc. Is a small amount of daily SP really going to change the roles you already use them for.


That's easy to guess. Many players in this game value SP higher than fun.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2206 - 2016-05-17 07:00:05 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


PCU reaction to Citadel has been a big notorious zero. Server population is at 2008 levels and keeps going down. But CCP thinks that the Rubicon Plan is doing well. And after all they can't just walk away from it at this point. Maybe they could remove teams from a structure set, slow down the whole thing and do something instead for PvE and high sec and solo play and the "85%", but even then, they would need to get it right. And that is unlikely for the little we know about the plans for PvE.


If you go to eveoffline and check the trend (the graphs) for 1 year/5year or All, where do you see evidence that server populations are going down? The trend seems to be a slight increase in player activity in the last half year IMO (Ofc we cannot distinguish between if more player joined, or if players were just logged on longer). With world war bee it is likely that people have been loggin on more, but I have no proof of this. So I am really curious where you get this prognosis from? And it is pretty crucial as the supposed drop in player activity is your main argument in the above for that what CCP is doing is wrong. Yet the server population does not keep going down, as you proclaim.. perhaps they are on a right track afterall?


I'm cheking interannual PCU averages.

For January-May 2015 was 29k, this year it's been 27k despite the massive boost of WWB.

Admittedly PCU is a moot indicator since it can be twisted into a "true falsity" as all statistics, but in general it's something you would like to see growing in the long term rather than dwindling.

Also, in general, a product that depends on releasing novelties regularly to justify its regular payment monetization should suffer some kind of drawback when large parts of the customer base don't get enough novelties.

I think that the current situation with Rubicon is a mistake based on insufficient information about the composition of demographics: CCP thought that Rubicon would appeal to more players than it actually does, and underestimated the amount of players left behind by the Rubicon guidelines.

Citadel as a expansion has fizzled. And probably it was meant to be the most successful of he new structure-based releases...
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2207 - 2016-05-17 07:34:46 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:

Genuine question, why would you feel the need to do this every day on 5 accounts?
Your corp alts already seem to be at the stage where they can do what is required of them, industry, hauling, scouting etc. Is a small amount of daily SP really going to change the roles you already use them for.

That's easy to guess. Many players in this game value SP higher than fun.

SPs became commodity when they introduced skill trading. Players will log on for 1,5 minute farm SP and profit. SP farms are the real thing, with PLEX prices falling, it's riskless, afk income. Absurd gameplay, and it won't stop. CCP earn on skill extractors and without SP farms whole thing would end in circa 6 months. To parapharase WoW: "SP is money, friend!".

I just wonder how they will measure the success of this "feature".

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#2208 - 2016-05-17 11:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: T-Jay Charante
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:

Genuine question, why would you feel the need to do this every day on 5 accounts?
Your corp alts already seem to be at the stage where they can do what is required of them, industry, hauling, scouting etc. Is a small amount of daily SP really going to change the roles you already use them for.

That's easy to guess. Many players in this game value SP higher than fun.

SPs became commodity when they introduced skill trading. Players will log on for 1,5 minute farm SP and profit. SP farms are the real thing, with PLEX prices falling, it's riskless, afk income. Absurd gameplay, and it won't stop. CCP earn on skill extractors and without SP farms whole thing would end in circa 6 months. To parapharase WoW: "SP is money, friend!".

I just wonder how they will measure the success of this "feature".


And just like any commodity in EvE, the market will get saturated, prices will crash and people will balance isk/time efficiency. This daily will eventually turn into something similar to R+D agents, once a passive goldmine, now a thing you do if you are close by, if you can be bothered.

If anything, this is a SP farmers worst nightmare and their profit margins will get crushed.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2209 - 2016-05-17 11:48:33 UTC
T-Jay Charante wrote:
And just like any commodity in EvE, the market will get saturated, prices will crash and people will balance isk/time efficiency. This daily will eventually turn into something similar to R+D agents, once a passive goldmine, now a thing you do if you are close by, if you can be bothered.

If anything, this is a SP farmers worst nightmare and their profit margins will get crushed.

I don't think so, part of SP after using injcetor is going into the void. It doesn't matter anyway. Introducing unhealty mechanism counting for logins is wrong direction. Logins will happen, what next? Remeber This is EvE trailer massive players reaction? Where are they? NPE is a joke, opportunities are joke, old carrier agents were joke (I didn't do them for a while, but when I started I must google what to do...). Sure dailies are for active and already in-game players but still, it's crude, "CCP like way" for boosting PCU.

I really want to see what's behind Tribute system before they implement dailies, because it felt like dailies when they announced it. Rise wrote it's something else.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Dantelion Shinoni
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2210 - 2016-05-17 17:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dantelion Shinoni
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
What do you mean by cumulative weekly?
I think with cumulative he means that once a week you need to do 7 actions. You can either do one everyday, divide it over three days or do all seven on one day. The actions accumulate over the week, and are not daily. This would fit better to people who are busy in RL.

CCP wants players to log every day, not just sunday. So it would be pointless to do such feature.


If they want ALL players to log in every day, they are going to be very, VERY disappointed.


I'd say a more reasonable expectation would be MORE people logging everyday, and a cumulative weekly would do just that. You will have the people who have the time to make sure they log every freaking day do those each day, and that without alienating those with families and jobs.

Plus, even for those who have all the time in the world such a feature would be a blessing as you wouldn't feel like **** whenever you would miss a day.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2211 - 2016-05-17 21:18:09 UTC
Dantelion Shinoni wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
What do you mean by cumulative weekly?
I think with cumulative he means that once a week you need to do 7 actions. You can either do one everyday, divide it over three days or do all seven on one day. The actions accumulate over the week, and are not daily. This would fit better to people who are busy in RL.

CCP wants players to log every day, not just sunday. So it would be pointless to do such feature.


If they want ALL players to log in every day, they are going to be very, VERY disappointed.


I'd say a more reasonable expectation would be MORE people logging everyday, and a cumulative weekly would do just that. You will have the people who have the time to make sure they log every freaking day do those each day, and that without alienating those with families and jobs.

Plus, even for those who have all the time in the world such a feature would be a blessing as you wouldn't feel like **** whenever you would miss a day.


A weekly cumulative will only really make you log more often if you don;t log in at least once a week before it get implemented. If you log every week, you'll do them that one time you log every week anyway.

Making it every day is the key to make people log more often. The only issue they are currently facing is their players being annoyed because they feel like they have to because they can't pass up a hit of SP.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#2212 - 2016-05-17 21:23:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:


I already have enough "daily tasks" in Eve. I am a corporation leader and FC. I also have normal, everyday things I want to do: PVP, PI, industry, exploration, etc. Every login is already like being pecked to death by baby ducks. "I'm bored. Can someone lead a roam?" "Hey, is my Naglfar ready yet?" "Can you light a cyno for me?" "Where is my courier contract now?" "Can you scout for the strat op tonight? I need scouts in HED-GP, PF-346, Obe, and H-PA29." And that's in a drama free corporation/alliance.


I think you are just not the intended target of this change. You already log in every day or close to it. They are more likely targeting week-end warrior or casuals logging in once a week or even less since they might get something new out of those. Seeing it as an "additional chore" sounds like you will subject yourself to something you dislike just because of the reward instead of just enjoying the game like you likely already do since you already on a daily basis. It's not about the daily but about the reward you don't want to pass up on.


I may not be the intended target, but I, and many others, are part of the collateral damage. That is why so many have voiced their opposition to this proposal. It offers a reward that is too good to pass up for anyone who actually plays the game, and it offers no incentive for people who don't currently play to actually come back and get engaged. Just a way for them to perceive they are falling further behind. Eve needs new and interesting things for people to do, or at the very least new variations on successful aspects of the game. Incursions, FW, and WH space did this before. Individual pilots could do these new and interesting things. This shallow stupid gameplay won't have the same effect. And neither will citadels, because they offer nothing to the individual pilot.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#2213 - 2016-05-17 23:25:48 UTC
Guis receiving a tangible benefit for playing is now falling behind.

If you don't log in and make a bil a day in ratting does that qualify as well? ??
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#2214 - 2016-05-18 07:16:21 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Guis receiving a tangible benefit for playing is now falling behind.

If you don't log in and make a bil a day in ratting does that qualify as well? ??

That depends. Can you get that bil in one hour a day each day, no more, no less? If so, then yes.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2215 - 2016-05-18 07:40:45 UTC
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I'm sure you jumped into a nice clone, with +5 implants before you left to maximize you skill point gain. Meanwhile, people who play on a daily basis don't have this luxury.
You feel punished as you may miss out on 3 or 4 hours training when you don't play the game. How do you feel about the people who lose 3-4 hours training who do play the game every day over ones that log in once or twice a week, do you think this is fair and logical?


If you are playing the game every day, and not participating in this daily opportunity, that's not my fault. The very least you can do is blow up an NPC every day, even if you're wandering around looking for gudfites.
Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#2216 - 2016-05-18 08:18:23 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Guis receiving a tangible benefit for playing is now falling behind.

If you don't log in and make a bil a day in ratting does that qualify as well? ??

That depends. Can you get that bil in one hour a day each day, no more, no less? If so, then yes.


The point was that it's condescending at best to suggest that a person would not be getting a reward for something because not turning up to collect it, whether it's bounties or market margins or skill points or ship hulls or any other tangible benefit that is sourced from an activity in game is unfair because you couldn't or wouldn't log in. You can't fall behind on an activity you don't log in to participate in.

It's just the same when people say that unsubscribed characters carry no weight because they weren't active anyway and that losing them doesn't count because they weren't contributing in the first place.
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#2217 - 2016-05-18 11:51:04 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I'm sure you jumped into a nice clone, with +5 implants before you left to maximize you skill point gain. Meanwhile, people who play on a daily basis don't have this luxury.
You feel punished as you may miss out on 3 or 4 hours training when you don't play the game. How do you feel about the people who lose 3-4 hours training who do play the game every day over ones that log in once or twice a week, do you think this is fair and logical?


If you are playing the game every day, and not participating in this daily opportunity, that's not my fault. The very least you can do is blow up an NPC every day, even if you're wandering around looking for gudfites.


I am talking about the current state, where I don't have the opportunity to make up those lost SP's compared to someone afk skill training with +5's.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#2218 - 2016-05-18 13:25:09 UTC
T-Jay Charante wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I'm sure you jumped into a nice clone, with +5 implants before you left to maximize you skill point gain. Meanwhile, people who play on a daily basis don't have this luxury.
You feel punished as you may miss out on 3 or 4 hours training when you don't play the game. How do you feel about the people who lose 3-4 hours training who do play the game every day over ones that log in once or twice a week, do you think this is fair and logical?


If you are playing the game every day, and not participating in this daily opportunity, that's not my fault. The very least you can do is blow up an NPC every day, even if you're wandering around looking for gudfites.


I am talking about the current state, where I don't have the opportunity to make up those lost SP's compared to someone afk skill training with +5's.


Yes, you do. You make the choice not to fly with +5 implants. That's a choice you make - in game - on days when you can play.

There are two schools of thought on "what you get for subscribing to Eve." One is that you simply pay for access to the server. This makes some sense, but almost none of us can maximize our access to the Eve server every month. I subscribe to the other school of thought, which is that you pay for access to the skill training. CCP made this abundantly clear when they removed ghost training. I didn't keep paying CCP the subscription fee for nine years so I could play Eve all day every day - I paid them to keep my characters improving. I did that even for time periods when I could not conceivably access Eve. Since CCP clearly does not like that model, I've made my own choices. This May, I unsubscribed another account and switched over to PLEX for the rest. I'm slowly bleeding down in game resources while I see which way this world is headed. Skill injectors and other daily grinding don't give me much incentive to continue, but we'll see how it turns out.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Blue Macaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2219 - 2016-05-18 15:18:45 UTC
So you people don't want free SP ... What's wrong with you --"... If i were to gift you something would you attempt to kick my ass for it? ô_o.

The gap between newbies and vets like us is ever increasing, and newbies are the ones that are more likely to do PVE because they don't have dozens of billions to invest in industry every week. I love newbies and I am aware of the ammount of skills required to play eve properly, so ANYTHING that helps is welcome.. No matter what bittervets think.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2220 - 2016-05-18 15:33:14 UTC
Blue Macaw wrote:
So you people don't want free SP ... What's wrong with you --"... If i were to gift you something would you attempt to kick my ass for it? ô_o.

The gap between newbies and vets like us is ever increasing, and newbies are the ones that are more likely to do PVE because they don't have dozens of billions to invest in industry every week. I love newbies and I am aware of the ammount of skills required to play eve properly, so ANYTHING that helps is welcome.. No matter what bittervets think.

This feature has nothing to do with newbees.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville