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CONCORD & EWAR => metagame?
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Ben Ishikela
#1 - 2016-04-14 17:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Ishikela
Hey!
no time to discuss or presentation or search similar ==> for inspirational purposes for our lovely devs.

*edit: would be a very big change. not just a litte tweak. so you be warned.
I heard that citadel (or next) expansion brings a maximum aligntime of 3minutes into game. True?
Therefor lets see how this evolves first. Therfor this thread can be closed for now.
Im sure, devs have heard about this idea and thought about whether its good or not. Therfor i dont have to bring it up again, yes?


here we go:
activating a midslot (jammers disruptors etc) on anyone in highsec, does spawn CONCORD, but does not activate their destructive power. but once damage is activated (drones / guns / smartbombs) !paeng! death by CONCORD's huge alpha (yes, imho they should use artillery or similar).

issues: (not complete ofc)
an ibis with eccm+scram on every gate.
many complaints by carebears.
(getting jammed in belts /etc ==> fitting eccm on barges Shocked)
ibis's disruptor range cant be released by aoe effects effectively to counter a spotted n+1 problem. <--- scorpion has 27km on BusrtJammerT2 therefor solved.
holding mission runners in place for too long might stiffle hatred. (i like it though)
probably increase in effective distance via highsec.

benefit:
ewar metagame
(other stuff removed)
many complaints by carebears.


ty for your time.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#2 - 2016-04-14 19:38:17 UTC
Are you even trying any more?



There's no real reason to do this...at all. CONCORD responds violently to any inter-capsuleer hostile action, and scramming or jamming some random in HS is most definitely a hostile action. What's the point, apart from the somewhat tenuous points listed, and how would this make EVE a better game?


No way that this could be exploited at all, amirite?

I personally might find the idea of provoking others into CONCORDokkening themselves by mistake hilarious for an hour or two, but really - have you thought this idea through?


In before "You should be banned from commenting"

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2016-04-14 20:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Thanks, but I would rather if these insta lock Blackbirds die rather than being able to keep my freighter tackled until the gank fleet arrives. And neutral webbing services are already possible via Duels.

So... WTF have I just read? We do not need more camps in High sec, we do not need more ganks/camps and big time PVP in High sec. People who want to PVP ought to leave High sec behind and go to Low sec/Null sec in order to populate these areas of space and provide activity there and not under the protection of High sec.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Iain Cariaba
#4 - 2016-04-14 21:24:19 UTC
I, for one, support this idea 100%.

No more expensive bumping machs needed to keep a freighter, or any other ship, from warping away. Not when a free rookie ship with a 25k isk warp disruptor can do so indefinitely with zero risk.

No more need for piloting ability to keep a freighter, or any other ship, from warping away. Not when you can sit at zero on a gate, or on station undock, with a long point and cover the entire arrival area.

No more need for training those pesky skill points. Not when you can tackle freighters with the skills a new character has right out the gate.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#5 - 2016-04-14 23:37:02 UTC
Jamming logi in incursion fleets xD

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Ben Ishikela
#6 - 2016-04-15 00:13:37 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Jamming logi in incursion fleets xD

Thats the spirit :)

Would the incursion meta shift, to have recons/scorpions there to damp/ecm those possible-ibises down? However.
It would disrupt the safety in which incursions can be run in highsec currently. Thats intended!

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2016-04-15 00:21:27 UTC
Fit blackbird, find missionrunner, point, scram, orbit, go AFK for 23 hours.

Hmm.
Ben Ishikela
#8 - 2016-04-15 00:22:33 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
I, for one, support this idea 100%.

No more expensive bumping machs needed to keep a freighter, or any other ship, from warping away. Not when a free rookie ship with a 25k isk warp disruptor can do so indefinitely with zero risk.

No more need for piloting ability to keep a freighter, or any other ship, from warping away. Not when you can sit at zero on a gate, or on station undock, with a long point and cover the entire arrival area.

No more need for training those pesky skill points. Not when you can tackle freighters with the skills a new character has right out the gate.

I'd just park another ibis at the gate ahead and jam the hostile one. or damp it. etc etc....
Therefor actually creative gameplay/TEAMWORK possible. Day One Noobs can actually participate. Guys on a trial period could be recruited to jam those guys for a bit of isk. right?

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Ben Ishikela
#9 - 2016-04-15 00:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Ishikela
Danika Princip wrote:
Fit blackbird, find missionrunner, point, scram, orbit, go AFK for 23 hours.

Hmm.

new meta:
1) use ecmburst and/or mobile depot(+stabs,ecm) on your missionrunner. (they should learn to do that for lowsec/nullsec anyway.)
2) missionrunner might find a friendship by calling out in local. (or be ganked Twisted)
3) loosing his ship still unlikely. well, puts another pressure on faction/deadspace mods for shure

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Iain Cariaba
#10 - 2016-04-15 00:29:03 UTC
Ben Ishikela wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
I, for one, support this idea 100%.

No more expensive bumping machs needed to keep a freighter, or any other ship, from warping away. Not when a free rookie ship with a 25k isk warp disruptor can do so indefinitely with zero risk.

No more need for piloting ability to keep a freighter, or any other ship, from warping away. Not when you can sit at zero on a gate, or on station undock, with a long point and cover the entire arrival area.

No more need for training those pesky skill points. Not when you can tackle freighters with the skills a new character has right out the gate.

I'd just park another ibis at the gate ahead and jam the hostile one. or damp it. etc etc....
Therefor actually creative gameplay/TEAMWORK possible. Day One Noobs can actually participate. Guys on a trial period could be recruited to jam those guys for a bit of isk. right?

And I bring another rookie ship, then you bring another, and so on. We take the n+1 meta out of dominion sov and move it into highsec? Of course, the n+1 meta worked soooo well for dominion sov that it has to work for highsec, right?
Iain Cariaba
#11 - 2016-04-15 00:33:25 UTC
Ben Ishikela wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Fit blackbird, find missionrunner, point, scram, orbit, go AFK for 23 hours.

Hmm.

new meta:
1) use ecmburst and/or mobile depot(+stabs,ecm) on your missionrunner. (they should learn to do that for lowsec/nullsec anyway.)
2) missionrunner might find a friendship by calling out in local. (or be ganked Twisted)
3) loosing his ship still unlikely. well, puts another pressure on faction/deadspace mods for shure

Yeah, that'll work.

At least it will until the mission runners start noticing a reduction in their precious isk/hr, then they'll be here on forums screaming for nerfs to your idea.
Ben Ishikela
#12 - 2016-04-15 00:37:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Ishikela
Iain Cariaba wrote:

And I bring another rookie ship, then you bring another, and so on. We take the n+1 meta out of dominion sov and move it into highsec? Of course, the n+1 meta worked soooo well for dominion sov that it has to work for highsec, right?

it can escalate until someone brings a scorpion with his ecm burst is going to clean the gate anyway. thats the cap.
but not if a keres sits outside of its effect.
a kitsune can sit outside of ibis's jamrange.
maybe that ibis needs to be protected by damps then.
==> more than just n+1

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Iain Cariaba
#13 - 2016-04-15 00:39:52 UTC
Game mechanic wise, Ben, you lack the understanding of how this, and the vast majority of your ideas, will be abused by the players of EvE.

Player psychology wise, you lack the understanding of how players will react to the abuses available in your ideas.
Ben Ishikela
#14 - 2016-04-15 00:45:45 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

(...)until the mission runners start noticing a reduction in their precious isk/hr, then they'll be here on forums screaming for nerfs to your idea.

isk/hr will be same or higher. Because demand isnt going anywhere. Supply might drop, but therefor higher prices as well.
Well, profit only for those that know how to do it properly of course.
at all others i can say then: "improve, if you want more isk!"

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Ben Ishikela
#15 - 2016-04-15 00:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Ishikela
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Game mechanic wise, Ben, you lack the understanding of how this, and the vast majority of your ideas, will be abused by the players of EvE.

Player psychology wise, you lack the understanding of how players will react to the abuses available in your ideas.

Abuseability is good!!!! (imho)
IF and only IF there is meaningful and fun counterplay.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Iain Cariaba
#16 - 2016-04-15 00:50:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Ben Ishikela wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

And I bring another rookie ship, then you bring another, and so on. We take the n+1 meta out of dominion sov and move it into highsec? Of course, the n+1 meta worked soooo well for dominion sov that it has to work for highsec, right?

it can escalate until someone brings a scorpion with his ecm burst is going to clean the gate anyway. thats the cap.
but not if a keres sits outside of its effect.
a kitsune can sit outside of ibis's jamrange.
maybe that ibis needs to be protected by damps then.
==> more than just n+1

Roll

You obviously don't understand the n+1 meta. Here's a hint: If you tactic can be directly countered by simply bringing one more ship, that's n+1.

ECM burst is good for max 12km. Not really difficult to counter that with a second ships perched near max point range at a different angle. n+1
A kitsune can only fit so many jams. Bring one more ship than kitsune has jams. n+1

Ben Ishikela wrote:
Abuseability is good!!!! (imho)
IF and only IF there is meaningful and fun counterplay.

No. Unintended abuse of a mechanic is the meta game, but a mechanic specifically designed to be abused is bad. N+1 is not counter play. It is cancer for the game.
Ben Ishikela
#17 - 2016-04-15 01:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Ishikela
Iain Cariaba wrote:
"N+1 reasons"

Ok ok. I get it. (ecm range too short for lachesis-point)
So how do we fix this bug then? The bug that is the lack of a deterrend or cap for N.

Quickfixes: bigger ecm-burst that needs spooling up for some time and has higher range?
What about "target spektrum breaker"?
But all those require no creativity: just bring a scorpion with every freigter and fire ecmburst on every gate.
There needs to be a better option......
(until it is found we will need to postpone it then)

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Ben Ishikela
#18 - 2016-04-15 01:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Ishikela
Ben Ishikela wrote:
just bring a scorpion with every freigter and fire the super-ecmburst on every gate.

this would not be lukrative if the time for spooling would be high enough, right?
Would it be a nice option if this burst was so expensive that ganking the scorpion for a lootdrop would be profitable.
?

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Iain Cariaba
#19 - 2016-04-15 01:22:13 UTC
Ben Ishikela wrote:
There needs to be a better option......
(until it is found we will need to postpone it then)

There is a better option. Pull the plug and let this bad idea die.

If you have to try and create new mechanics to try and fix the new mechanic you're suggesting, then your suggestion is broken on a fundamental level.
Ben Ishikela
#20 - 2016-04-15 01:23:42 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Ben Ishikela wrote:
Abuseability is good!!!! (imho)
IF and only IF there is meaningful and fun counterplay.

No. Unintended abuse of a mechanic is the meta game, but a mechanic specifically designed to be abused is bad. N+1 is not counter play. It is cancer for the game.

n+1 alone is not fun counterplay in itself. so therefor it was not included in "good".
however, n+1 is more difficult to achieve here than it was in dominion-sov, but that should not be a reason to overlook it.
ewar scales differently than dps. it has to be coordinated.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
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