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Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#1261 - 2016-04-12 11:08:10 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Tomika wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
It's why you don't need to grind in eve


Standings say hi.


keyword here "need" standings don't provide a benefit over anyone else



Standings are *absolutely mandatory* to participate in trading at present (in any competitive way).

I don't flip PLEX often, but when I do it is in Dodixie (where I have outstanding standings). I would lose ISK on all of those transactions if I carried them out in Jita.

Same goes for Marauders and premium deadspace modules.

I have to disagree there. Sure, standings are required to make a profit on the same few items hundreds of other traders are competing on, but I've had no trouble making a fair bit of isk station trading in Jita on a character with no corp standing and -0.09 faction standing. It's just a matter of choosing slightly less obvious items.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#1262 - 2016-04-12 11:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Shallanna Yassavi
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
This whole thing will end in XP/SP grind soon. One step at a time. First SP trading, now rewards for logging. Next step xp boost for playing at least 3 hours.
Let's face it. Players are creating content in sandbox (if EvE is still sandbox?). If they are not online because they passively gaining XP/SP it's bad for the business.
Problem is if game is not entertaning there is not enough high reward to encourage players to log in.


The problem is that players DON'T CREATE content...

Some player groupe organizing a PvP raid is no content...

New content is about
- new ships
- new structures
- new modules (or module changes)
- new game mechanics
- new missions
- new exploration sites
...

To have players creating content in a sandbox, you'd need to have people able to upload textures, 3D models, to create items, ... (a little like what you can find in "2nd life" or in the old MUSH/MUX games).

I think that new content (not only for high-level players/corps, but also for people ranging from the miner to the PvE solo'er) would be the best idea to get people login... Way better than dailies... Somehow, the only people who don't really care about content are the PvP'er... they only need targets... But EVE's mechanics are such that other people are required (else PvP'ers would fall short of ships/modules).

Mixing active and passive character development is not really a problem... As some older players already pointed, SP are not so important... But I think that there should really be enough way to get SP to be sure that people WON'T BE ABLE TO DO THEM ALL... If there is only one way, which only requires little time daily (or weekly,...), people may feel compelled to do it... If they are no way to do them all, people will do what they want... There may be some crazy people who will try to "optimize" by doing all of them... but they won't be the common case.

1 rat daily is not a bad idea... Miners can do it, explorer can do it, PvE'er can do it (they both already do it), PvP'er can do it, beginners and older players can do it, ... the only people which would have to get out of their ways are traders, industrialists and scammers...

But I think that there should be many other ways... why not include things like T2 research, jumping in at least X systems, starting at least X jobs (or having at least X different production task running), scanning X signatures and many other things... As I said, there should be enough of these to be sure that a single character can't do them all...


Someone has obviously never poked at a tangled and highly unstable web of diplomacy.

That is how we as players create massively multiplayer content. We fight over stuff, make and break alliances, win and lose wars. And there's the whole logistical side of it.
A big part of the citadel expansion is to make a huge fight over who gets to be the next Jita. If there's not a diplomatic solution, there are going to be a lot of fireworks.
Added: That's also how you write for a sandbox: make tools and mechanical rules for how they interact, and let the players do the rest.

Making it so we won't be able to do everything in to get SP means a lot longer grind for all the "bonus."
Added: And a much more annoying daily routine which is extremely anti-sandbox.

The whole point of a sandbox is for us to be able to do what we want, when we want, how we want, and the whole point of making skill gain passive was to avoid exactly the kind of "must grind out this stuff for XP" monster that's apparently being stitched together as we speak.

A signature :o
Ben Ishikela
#1263 - 2016-04-12 11:17:45 UTC
Tomika wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It's punishing me for not logging in every day. One of the core concepts of eve is that you can train SP at the same rate no matter how much time you have to play.


That ended with injectors.

To be exact, it ended with Character Basar.
But then again, there was something before that.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1264 - 2016-04-12 11:22:45 UTC
Ben Ishikela wrote:
Tomika wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It's punishing me for not logging in every day. One of the core concepts of eve is that you can train SP at the same rate no matter how much time you have to play.


That ended with injectors.

To be exact, it ended with Character Basar.
But then again, there was something before that.


At least the bizarre was a lessor of two evils used to stop illegal character trading

And at least injectors don't have the same physiological component to them (however I still belive injectors were bad)

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ben Ishikela
#1265 - 2016-04-12 11:27:30 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Tomika wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
It's why you don't need to grind in eve


Standings say hi.


keyword here "need" standings don't provide a benefit over anyone else



Standings are *absolutely mandatory* to participate in trading at present (in any competitive way).

I don't flip PLEX often, but when I do it is in Dodixie (where I have outstanding standings). I would lose ISK on all of those transactions if I carried them out in Jita.

Same goes for Marauders and premium deadspace modules.

I have to disagree there. Sure, standings are required to make a profit on the same few items hundreds of other traders are competing on, but I've had no trouble making a fair bit of isk station trading in Jita on a character with no corp standing and -0.09 faction standing. It's just a matter of choosing slightly less obvious items.

Id like to back that up:
In eve there is still the descicion: Grind <-> Smart.

.... or both?
But nothing mandatory really. It just helps. Does it really?
Because not having it puts pressure on every trade i do. Therefor it has a cost. Therefor i need to be even smarter if i have no standings. ohoh what now?

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Rain6639
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1266 - 2016-04-12 11:27:43 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Ben Ishikela wrote:
Tomika wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It's punishing me for not logging in every day. One of the core concepts of eve is that you can train SP at the same rate no matter how much time you have to play.


That ended with injectors.

To be exact, it ended with Character Basar.
But then again, there was something before that.


At least the bizarre was a lessor of two evils used to stop illegal character trading

And at least injectors don't have the same physiological component to them (however I still belive injectors were bad)


I don't know if you can call them bad but it was a fundamental shift.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#1267 - 2016-04-12 11:40:01 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Tomika wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
It's why you don't need to grind in eve


Standings say hi.


keyword here "need" standings don't provide a benefit over anyone else



Standings are *absolutely mandatory* to participate in trading at present (in any competitive way).

I don't flip PLEX often, but when I do it is in Dodixie (where I have outstanding standings). I would lose ISK on all of those transactions if I carried them out in Jita.

Same goes for Marauders and premium deadspace modules.

I have to disagree there. Sure, standings are required to make a profit on the same few items hundreds of other traders are competing on, but I've had no trouble making a fair bit of isk station trading in Jita on a character with no corp standing and -0.09 faction standing. It's just a matter of choosing slightly less obvious items.


Yup. Try the 5k-1b challenge, it's not all that difficult. Made an alt with nothing to their name but 5k isk, no standings, no sp. Go to Jita, start trading until hitting 1b, in less than a month. Standings aren't absolutely mandatory, nor are even the trading skills. Both of those just open up new avenues of trade and increase volume.

Took me less than three weeks to hit the 1 billion mark on that fresh untrained alt, who never undocked apart from that initial run to Jita the first day.

Somewhat off topic, but since it came up...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1268 - 2016-04-12 11:48:04 UTC
Tomika wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It's punishing me for not logging in every day. One of the core concepts of eve is that you can train SP at the same rate no matter how much time you have to play.


That ended with injectors.


Those still need to be trained and are bought with isk which I can earn while logged off.
Tomika
Doomheim
#1269 - 2016-04-12 11:52:12 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Tomika wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
It's why you don't need to grind in eve


Standings say hi.


keyword here "need" standings don't provide a benefit over anyone else


You don't "need" to gain 10k extra SP a day either.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#1270 - 2016-04-12 11:54:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tomika wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It's punishing me for not logging in every day. One of the core concepts of eve is that you can train SP at the same rate no matter how much time you have to play.


That ended with injectors.


Those still need to be trained and are bought with isk which I can earn while logged off.

By someone else.

What I see when I look at the market are skill points I can buy with money. That makes it a very direct buy-XP-for-kredits (which we do grind out) mechanism, even if the efficiency is a lot better on plex or a multiple pilot certificate.

A signature :o
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1271 - 2016-04-12 11:55:13 UTC
Tomika wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Tomika wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
It's why you don't need to grind in eve


Standings say hi.


keyword here "need" standings don't provide a benefit over anyone else


You don't "need" to gain 10k extra SP a day either.


standings arent relevant to me, sp is relevant to everyone

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1272 - 2016-04-12 11:56:26 UTC
I have ~100M SP so I get 150k SP per Injector. To buy the same amount of SP dailies would provide in a year costs me ~16B ISK. That's ~45M ISK per day. I can earn that by playing approx one hour (with logging in, warping around, finding rats, killing rats, selling loot, etc). 10k SP per day can be earned in 5 minutes (maybe even less).

So time wise it's: Playing 365 hours (~15 days) versus playing 30 hours (1 day, 6 hours). Per year.

Do you really think, this is not punishing normal play styles compared to daily grind monkey play style?

You can think what you want about skill injectors, but the diminishing returns are there for a reason. The more SP you have, the less incentive you have to use them. Dailies reverse this. 10k SP per day gives me 150k SP (worth 625M ISK) for 75 minutes playtime. Please show me the activity that gives 500M ISK per hour...

And all this for logging in every day like a zombie and do the same thing, again and again and again and again..
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1273 - 2016-04-12 11:59:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tomika wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It's punishing me for not logging in every day. One of the core concepts of eve is that you can train SP at the same rate no matter how much time you have to play.


That ended with injectors.


Those still need to be trained and are bought with isk which I can earn while logged off.


If you earn ISK while logged off than whatever that is you're doing should be nerfed :p

Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Yup. Try the 5k-1b challenge, it's not all that difficult. Made an alt with nothing to their name but 5k isk, no standings, no sp. Go to Jita, start trading until hitting 1b, in less than a month. Standings aren't absolutely mandatory, nor are even the trading skills. Both of those just open up new avenues of trade and increase volume.

Took me less than three weeks to hit the 1 billion mark on that fresh untrained alt, who never undocked apart from that initial run to Jita the first day.

Somewhat off topic, but since it came up...

I wonder how many hours of mind-numbingly boring 'playing' that took.

And if traders dont need SP to trade effectively, then they dont miss out on anything if they ignore this new feature, right?

.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1274 - 2016-04-12 12:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Terrorfrodo wrote:


If you earn ISK while logged off than whatever that is you're doing should be nerfed :p


It's called industry.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1275 - 2016-04-12 12:08:58 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Tomika wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It's punishing me for not logging in every day. One of the core concepts of eve is that you can train SP at the same rate no matter how much time you have to play.


That ended with injectors.


Those still need to be trained and are bought with isk which I can earn while logged off.


If you earn ISK while logged off than whatever that is you're doing should be nerfed :p


why just because i'm logged off doesn't mean im not playing

and there are a lot of ways to make isk while logged off

market orders

pi

alliance/corp/logistics management

moon mining

the list goes on

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1276 - 2016-04-12 12:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Ripley
baltec1 wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
If you earn ISK while logged off than whatever that is you're doing should be nerfed :p

It's called industry.

I wouldn't say it's "earning ISK while logged off". The actual industry part is getting the materials and setting everything up and then selling it. The time to build is just a cap to regulate the production volume. Same goes for trading. It sound nice the think about it like "afk ISK" but that ISK is just the result of your logged in activity. You just get the money with a certain delay.
Like killing a rat, logging off and then getting the bounty.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1277 - 2016-04-12 12:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Mister Ripley wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
If you earn ISK while logged off than whatever that is you're doing should be nerfed :p

It's called industry.

I wouldn't say it's "earning ISK while logged off". The actual industry part is getting the materials and setting everything up and then selling it. The time to build is just a cap to regulate the production volume. Same goes for trading. It sound nice the think about it like "afk ISK" but that ISK is just the result of your logged in activity. You just get the money with a certain delay.
Like killing a rat, logging off and then getting the bounty.


but even then im able to do it at my own pace

will i be on tomorrow OK i'll put on a few frigs overnight

well i wont be on all week maybe i'll put in a couple battle ships or capital components

its also something i can just do from my phone

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1278 - 2016-04-12 12:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Ripley
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Mister Ripley wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
If you earn ISK while logged off than whatever that is you're doing should be nerfed :p

It's called industry.

I wouldn't say it's "earning ISK while logged off". The actual industry part is getting the materials and setting everything up and then selling it. The time to build is just a cap to regulate the production volume. Same goes for trading. It sound nice the think about it like "afk ISK" but that ISK is just the result of your logged in activity. You just get the money with a certain delay.
Like killing a rat, logging off and then getting the bounty.


but even then im able to do it at my own pace

will i be on tomorrow OK i'll put on a few frigs overnight

well i wont be on all week maybe i'll put in a couple battle ships or capital components

its also something i can just do from my phone

Yes, that's not what I said, but yes, you are right. You can also change systems by jumping through a stargates.

I understand your passion, but there is really no need to inflate this thread with meaningless notes on every comment.
Tomika
Doomheim
#1279 - 2016-04-12 12:22:16 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
standings arent relevant to me, sp is relevant to everyone


That does not translate to "I need to go and kill a rat for more SP". If you choose to do nothing, literally nothing will change for you. You will still gain SP as fast as you were previously.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1280 - 2016-04-12 12:25:57 UTC
Tomika wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
standings arent relevant to me, sp is relevant to everyone


That does not translate to "I need to go and kill a rat for more SP". If you choose to do nothing, literally nothing will change for you. You will still gain SP as fast as you were previously.


sure something has changed i'm now 10ksp behind for the day compaired to the person who was able to do it

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble