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Recurring Opportunities coming soon

First post
Author
Rain6639
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1301 - 2016-04-12 15:52:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks

Reallocating previously trained SP is a better incentive but okay.
Sir Constantin
#1302 - 2016-04-12 15:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Constantin
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


Nice play, totally scripted.

1. Launch a really bad mechanic in a really bad form knowing that people would rage.
Let the people rage a few days.

2. Come with some bla bla bla, keeping the bad mechanic
People rage less.

3. Then you come saying that CCP is listening, you add a slight improvement to a still bad mechanic, a improvement that you could have added day one but if you did you wouldn't had any other leverage/ buffer.
Naive people get fooled into accepting the change

I wonder what's the CSM take on this, did they knew/accept this ****?
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#1303 - 2016-04-12 16:03:20 UTC
Inomares wrote:
Anything I feel obliged to do on a daily basis whether I feel like doing it or not, I will end up hating. I quit WoW for this exact same reason. I didn't need the gold I got from logging in and updating my Garrison for 5 minutes/day, but the nagging feeling that I was missing out if I didn't was always there. In the end, it nagged me to the point where I quit the game over it. Don't start making me hate eve as well, please. The skill queue change is one of the best changes I've seen since I came back to the game.



Why are you even here then?
You always DO miss out on the ISK. Where's your nagging feeling?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1304 - 2016-04-12 16:04:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


Damn, there goes my plan to put all 8 of my alts in confessors, log off in lvl 1 missions and long in long enough to kill one frig and log off again Twisted


I had something similar planned.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1305 - 2016-04-12 16:08:32 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


This is a step in the right direction.

You still need to make it a weekly chore. If it must be daily, make it actually daily - either based off calendar day or resetting at downtime.

Additionally, it should be AURUM. If it must be SP, make it a percentage training rate increase that compares to adding another +1 to each attribute, rather than 10K SP/day.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kym Mena
World Burning
#1306 - 2016-04-12 16:15:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


Out of all the feedback here, the overwhelmingly negative feedback, the only thing you took from it was this? Is reading comprehension not a strong suit of yours or do you really not give a **** about what we've been saying?

I have come to the conclusion that, as noted previously, your plan is proceeding on script in a bid to get us to shut up by saying "well, it's not as bad as the first idea". I have news for you, I will only acquiesce because I will stop believing that player feedback matters to CCP. I will not be the only one. How long after you lose our trust and respect do you expect to need a new log in "reward" to boost numbers again?

I can't wait to hear what kind of feedback you all get in person, Fanfest should be really interesting.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1307 - 2016-04-12 16:28:05 UTC
Kym Mena wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


Out of all the feedback here, the overwhelmingly negative feedback, the only thing you took from it was this? Is reading comprehension not a strong suit of yours or do you really not give a **** about what we've been saying?

I have come to the conclusion that, as noted previously, your plan is proceeding on script in a bid to get us to shut up by saying "well, it's not as bad as the first idea". I have news for you, I will only acquiesce because I will stop believing that player feedback matters to CCP. I will not be the only one. How long after you lose our trust and respect do you expect to need a new log in "reward" to boost numbers again?

I can't wait to hear what kind of feedback you all get in person, Fanfest should be really interesting.


To be fair, that was one of the biggest concerns.

To be fairer, the title of the thread is "Daily Opportunities coming soon", not "Dailies MIGHT be coming", or "Dev Idea - Dailies, player opinion makes or breaks".

I think it was actually kinda unreasonable on our part to assume that we could change anything about this. From the start, this project was a go, we just were able to shave off some of the rougher corners of it.
Eveline Vos
POS Party
Ember Sands
#1308 - 2016-04-12 16:28:10 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


Adding a slightly less bad mechanic to the game is still adding a bad mechanic to the game.

Do not do this. It's been explained by myself and others in this thread, we do NOT want dailies, we do not want sandbox gameplay dictated, and we do not appreciate being treated like idiots who can't see this change for what it is, a crappy psychological psudo-mechanic to inflate logins, even if they're not meaningful.

There are a lot of good ways to make people want to log in to Eve, but a psychological manipulation of "losing SP" is easily the worst way possible. You'd moved away from this with the changes to skill queues, and that was a good thing, you don't need to go back to it.

As already mentioned repeatedly, changes to PVE content (which, iirc, you're already working on) will go significantly further towards people wanting to log in. Citadels will make people want to log in. Promoting media (streams, youtube, etc) will make people want to log in. Making adjustments to the tutorial system and opportunities will keep new players logging in/subbing. There are a lot of ways to get people to want to log in (even if they're hard to implement well), but dailies is not a good one.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1309 - 2016-04-12 16:30:19 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Kym Mena wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


Out of all the feedback here, the overwhelmingly negative feedback, the only thing you took from it was this? Is reading comprehension not a strong suit of yours or do you really not give a **** about what we've been saying?

I have come to the conclusion that, as noted previously, your plan is proceeding on script in a bid to get us to shut up by saying "well, it's not as bad as the first idea". I have news for you, I will only acquiesce because I will stop believing that player feedback matters to CCP. I will not be the only one. How long after you lose our trust and respect do you expect to need a new log in "reward" to boost numbers again?

I can't wait to hear what kind of feedback you all get in person, Fanfest should be really interesting.


To be fair, that was one of the biggest concerns.

To be fairer, the title of the thread is "Daily Opportunities coming soon", not "Dailies MIGHT be coming", or "Dev Idea - Dailies, player opinion makes or breaks".

I think it was actually kinda unreasonable on our part to assume that we could change anything about this. From the start, this project was a go, we just were able to shave off some of the rougher corners of it.


People do have a rather high expectation of what will happen with their feedback. Providing feedback does not mean you can turn everything around because you want it.
Kym Mena
World Burning
#1310 - 2016-04-12 16:35:58 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Kym Mena wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


Out of all the feedback here, the overwhelmingly negative feedback, the only thing you took from it was this? Is reading comprehension not a strong suit of yours or do you really not give a **** about what we've been saying?

I have come to the conclusion that, as noted previously, your plan is proceeding on script in a bid to get us to shut up by saying "well, it's not as bad as the first idea". I have news for you, I will only acquiesce because I will stop believing that player feedback matters to CCP. I will not be the only one. How long after you lose our trust and respect do you expect to need a new log in "reward" to boost numbers again?

I can't wait to hear what kind of feedback you all get in person, Fanfest should be really interesting.


To be fair, that was one of the biggest concerns.

To be fairer, the title of the thread is "Daily Opportunities coming soon", not "Dailies MIGHT be coming", or "Dev Idea - Dailies, player opinion makes or breaks".

I think it was actually kinda unreasonable on our part to assume that we could change anything about this. From the start, this project was a go, we just were able to shave off some of the rougher corners of it.


The only thing we did was play along with the script, more psych manipulation from CCP on this. i strongly suspect that the actual plan was for one character per account, once per day, to be manipulated into playing the way CCP wants them to, in order to create false log in numbers to make themselves look better. They knew we wouldn't like this, as can be seen by reading any page of tbis thread (Novel idea, right Rise?) so they created a worse idea that we would speak against so they could pretend to acquiesce and get away with what they really wanted. Anyone who thinks this is a win is a fool.

As for it being a certainty, I stated that in my first post. They have made up their minds to treat the slippery slope like a Slip n' Slide and dive down it head first.
Molly Shears
Grey Toxic Sword
Reeloaded.
#1311 - 2016-04-12 16:35:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


what about 22h ?
why not between downtimes ?

Didn't changed my mind.
I'm Against Daily Opportunities
Eveline Vos
POS Party
Ember Sands
#1312 - 2016-04-12 16:38:56 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Kym Mena wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


Out of all the feedback here, the overwhelmingly negative feedback, the only thing you took from it was this? Is reading comprehension not a strong suit of yours or do you really not give a **** about what we've been saying?

I have come to the conclusion that, as noted previously, your plan is proceeding on script in a bid to get us to shut up by saying "well, it's not as bad as the first idea". I have news for you, I will only acquiesce because I will stop believing that player feedback matters to CCP. I will not be the only one. How long after you lose our trust and respect do you expect to need a new log in "reward" to boost numbers again?

I can't wait to hear what kind of feedback you all get in person, Fanfest should be really interesting.


To be fair, that was one of the biggest concerns.

To be fairer, the title of the thread is "Daily Opportunities coming soon", not "Dailies MIGHT be coming", or "Dev Idea - Dailies, player opinion makes or breaks".

I think it was actually kinda unreasonable on our part to assume that we could change anything about this. From the start, this project was a go, we just were able to shave off some of the rougher corners of it.


People do have a rather high expectation of what will happen with their feedback. Providing feedback does not mean you can turn everything around because you want it.


While it doesn't mean I can turn around a sailed ship, I can make it expressly clear to CCP that I hate dailies and will unsub accounts over an issue.

Of course, everyone threatens that, but only CCP knows how many accounts they have or haven't lost over a given change. However, I am saddened to hear that dailies were determined to be the best long term solution to "people don't like our game enough to log in", and so I need to help whoever it is at CCP (Rise?) see that it is not a good idea.
Eveline Vos
POS Party
Ember Sands
#1313 - 2016-04-12 16:40:52 UTC
Kym Mena wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Kym Mena wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


Out of all the feedback here, the overwhelmingly negative feedback, the only thing you took from it was this? Is reading comprehension not a strong suit of yours or do you really not give a **** about what we've been saying?

I have come to the conclusion that, as noted previously, your plan is proceeding on script in a bid to get us to shut up by saying "well, it's not as bad as the first idea". I have news for you, I will only acquiesce because I will stop believing that player feedback matters to CCP. I will not be the only one. How long after you lose our trust and respect do you expect to need a new log in "reward" to boost numbers again?

I can't wait to hear what kind of feedback you all get in person, Fanfest should be really interesting.


To be fair, that was one of the biggest concerns.

To be fairer, the title of the thread is "Daily Opportunities coming soon", not "Dailies MIGHT be coming", or "Dev Idea - Dailies, player opinion makes or breaks".

I think it was actually kinda unreasonable on our part to assume that we could change anything about this. From the start, this project was a go, we just were able to shave off some of the rougher corners of it.


The only thing we did was play along with the script, more psych manipulation from CCP on this. i strongly suspect that the actual plan was for one character per account, once per day, to be manipulated into playing the way CCP wants them to, in order to create false log in numbers to make themselves look better. They knew we wouldn't like this, as can be seen by reading any page of tbis thread (Novel idea, right Rise?) so they created a worse idea that we would speak against so they could pretend to acquiesce and get away with what they really wanted. Anyone who thinks this is a win is a fool.

As for it being a certainty, I stated that in my first post. They have made up their minds to treat the slippery slope like a Slip n' Slide and dive down it head first.


Exactly.

This "update" isn't a win, it's a slap in the face.

More bad psychology at work...
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1314 - 2016-04-12 16:43:28 UTC
Kym Mena wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Kym Mena wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


Out of all the feedback here, the overwhelmingly negative feedback, the only thing you took from it was this? Is reading comprehension not a strong suit of yours or do you really not give a **** about what we've been saying?

I have come to the conclusion that, as noted previously, your plan is proceeding on script in a bid to get us to shut up by saying "well, it's not as bad as the first idea". I have news for you, I will only acquiesce because I will stop believing that player feedback matters to CCP. I will not be the only one. How long after you lose our trust and respect do you expect to need a new log in "reward" to boost numbers again?

I can't wait to hear what kind of feedback you all get in person, Fanfest should be really interesting.


To be fair, that was one of the biggest concerns.

To be fairer, the title of the thread is "Daily Opportunities coming soon", not "Dailies MIGHT be coming", or "Dev Idea - Dailies, player opinion makes or breaks".

I think it was actually kinda unreasonable on our part to assume that we could change anything about this. From the start, this project was a go, we just were able to shave off some of the rougher corners of it.


The only thing we did was play along with the script, more psych manipulation from CCP on this. i strongly suspect that the actual plan was for one character per account, once per day, to be manipulated into playing the way CCP wants them to, in order to create false log in numbers to make themselves look better. They knew we wouldn't like this, as can be seen by reading any page of tbis thread (Novel idea, right Rise?) so they created a worse idea that we would speak against so they could pretend to acquiesce and get away with what they really wanted. Anyone who thinks this is a win is a fool.

As for it being a certainty, I stated that in my first post. They have made up their minds to treat the slippery slope like a Slip n' Slide and dive down it head first.


Are you gonna quit over the combo of the change and their "evil" behavior and if yes, can I have your stuff?
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1315 - 2016-04-12 16:44:46 UTC
Eveline Vos wrote:
However, I am saddened to hear that dailies were determined to be the best long term solution to "people don't like our game enough to log in", and so I need to help whoever it is at CCP (Rise?) see that it is not a good idea.

It's the mixed bag of player-driven content. When it's awesome, like when a map-changing war is being fought across huge swaths of the map, then it's a dev's dream come true. When it's not awesome, there's very little you can do about it.

CCP can't force people to fight. Any idea to drive conflict will have lots of vocal detractors, results to be seen, can be hit or miss. But if they feel they must do something, given the theme of this game is still player-driven content, their options are severely limited.

I may not like dailies, in fact I may dislike them just as much as many of the most vocal here. But I understand what CCP is aiming for, and to an extent I even respect it. Maybe if wars like this, or slightly smaller, were fought more often more players would be drawn in and current ones would log in more. But nobody can force that to happen. In fact it goes against the very nature of people - they trend towards settling in, rather than stirring up trouble. Even pirates make allies sometimes.
Eveline Vos
POS Party
Ember Sands
#1316 - 2016-04-12 17:28:17 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Eveline Vos wrote:
However, I am saddened to hear that dailies were determined to be the best long term solution to "people don't like our game enough to log in", and so I need to help whoever it is at CCP (Rise?) see that it is not a good idea.

It's the mixed bag of player-driven content. When it's awesome, like when a map-changing war is being fought across huge swaths of the map, then it's a dev's dream come true. When it's not awesome, there's very little you can do about it.

CCP can't force people to fight. Any idea to drive conflict will have lots of vocal detractors, results to be seen, can be hit or miss. But if they feel they must do something, given the theme of this game is still player-driven content, their options are severely limited.

I may not like dailies, in fact I may dislike them just as much as many of the most vocal here. But I understand what CCP is aiming for, and to an extent I even respect it. Maybe if wars like this, or slightly smaller, were fought more often more players would be drawn in and current ones would log in more. But nobody can force that to happen. In fact it goes against the very nature of people - they trend towards settling in, rather than stirring up trouble. Even pirates make allies sometimes.


I agree with you overall, but I still don't think dailies are the way to get there.

I certainly don't have a solution, but some of the things I mentioned, like better PVE (even these faction event sites are a step in the right direction), will get more people logging into the game in the first place (meeting the goal of dailies), except better content will keep them logged in longer, which provides more of those spontaneous conflicts. It just isn't as easy to implement as dailies.

Also, honestly, despite the history/bad reputation, walking in station with player interaction such as avatar gambling, minigames, etc etc would get people to be logged into the game as well, which makes it easier for them to react (undock) to conflicts created by the people in space, or maybe even start fights in the first place.
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#1317 - 2016-04-12 17:34:35 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, let's see if I can provide some context for our decision to add daily opportunities to eve and maybe answer some of your bigger questions.

Why Dailies?
So first lets talk a little history. EVE had a daily logon incentive for most of it's existence: the 24 hour skill queue limit. Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations. Now, at the time, we were of two minds internally. We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them. We leaned to the side of a better experience and removed the limitations, hoping that the logins we were generating were fairly empty, rarely leading to more actual activity in the universe. Well, it turns out we were wrong about that. Now, with before and after data we can see that making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity, even if the reason for logging in in the first place seems artificial. So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did. This may not turn out to be the perfect alternative but that's what we're looking for.


This is freaking absurd. You have made many changes since then and numbers have been dropping for years despite the assurances from CCP that what everyone wants from EVE is small gang ganks in interceptors or T3Ds. Now you have a huge ass block war and suddenly all manners of players are coming back and active numbers are spiking and the conclusion you draw from it all is that you need to introduce a daily, utterly meaningless grind, into EVE despite no decent evidence that anyone in the game has asked for it.

Can you show us a single MMO that has introduced daily grinds that is doing as well as EVE? Daily grinds is what makes people burn out. Especially since the mean age of EVE players is somewhere around 37, which means that most of us have lives and can't dedicate every second of our lives to a game. EVE has always been an MMO for a mature audience as it respected our time. I can play when I want, however I want without losing out on SP.

Finally, on this part, the idea that this is optional is absurd. There is tons of research (done by experts in statistics and human psychology) that shows that most of us will feel like we are forced to do it and will do it for a short while before burning out and leaving EVE. Numbers in EVE are not that good that you can afford to get rid of everyone that is not in the 12-18 years range.

CCP Rise wrote:
Why Skillpoints?


SP is only thing with any real value in EVE so yes, you will force people to login and, as shown by plenty of research, they will burn out and that will be the end of EVE. If you don't respect our time, if you force us to grind and play as you want then what kind of sandbox is it and why should we pay for gameplay that is quickly approaching F2P games. We pay to have a unique game not a n:th copy of WoW or even worse Korean games like WoT.

CCP Rise wrote:
Why so lazy?

Only good part about this thread is that at least you didn't waste a lot of developer time.

However the whole we will release it and you all can go to hell approach is somewhat insulting considering that you have a job because we are paying subscriptions and despite what you might think EVE is a game and we don't have to play it. Making it into a daily grind will make majority of your players burn out fast as we do have lives outside of EVE.

Makes me sad to see how far you have fallen. Once upon a time CCP listened to the players, especially when all the available statistical data showed that players were completely right. Keep on this track and you will be looking for a new job soon.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#1318 - 2016-04-12 17:38:58 UTC
Maybe if this game wasn't boring as shit more people would log in and you wouldn't have to add dumb gimmicks like daily chores.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#1319 - 2016-04-12 17:41:01 UTC
Mining mechanics have remained unchanged since ~2002 when they were first prototyped. Belt ratting hasn't received an overhaul since it was nuked into the ground. Anomalies come in a handful of worthwhile varieties that have to be run 100,000,000,000 times and are completely repetitive. The only interesting PvE is the kind that takes place where other players can shoot at you, and it's not interesting because of the actual game content.

I could go on, but I think you're starting to get the point about this game being boring.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#1320 - 2016-04-12 17:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, let's see if I can provide some context for our decision to add daily opportunities to eve and maybe answer some of your bigger questions.
.... .


Thanks for an actual reply detailing the thinking behind the feature. I must say that this kind of communication is vital for the future of the game.

First, I would like to point out a small contradiction. You say that you're doing this to create activity but then you mention that you want it done on lunch breaks, which obviously can't really result in much activity. I'm going to assume they are separate so that those that don't want to be left out can do it in a short amount of time even if they can't commit to any emergent activity from logging in.

Good call on making it once per account.

I still have a huge problem with specific activity rewarding SP. I would suggest an alternate activity all playstyles and players can take part in. The discovery feature is a great alternative as anyone can participate regardless of location or conditions in space around them which might prevent them from undocking. If the motivation is truly to get players to login, they shouldn't have to undock or be limited to certain activities for SP. Rewards in limited space activities would be fine for ISK, but not SP. I get that being in space might lead to more things happening but SP reward is too punishing in a game which is a lot more than just flying in space

Last note on WOW in space. If you truly believe that Eve is different just because of its space sci fi setting, you're very mistaken. At its core it's about the values and principles that separate it from other games. Things like grind free progression, being in a sandbox where you can do anything you want without being forced into certain activities and not being manipilated by cheap tactics like rats in a cage. We don't appreciate Skinners box mechanics, being forced to do stuff a certain way at a certain time and general use of sticks and carrots to manipilated the playerbase.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!