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which carrier, blops, marauder?

Author
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#21 - 2012-01-13 00:12:31 UTC
I'd love to see an active tank bonus on the Gal/Minnie logistics. Unfortunately, high sec Incursion carebears seem to be mighty attached to that tracking link bonus and don't give two ***** about how obsolete the TL bonus makes the ships in PVP. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Aamrr
#22 - 2012-01-13 00:29:26 UTC
How would you feel if that bonus were just given to all Logis, and piggybacked on the existing remote bonus? You know, something like this:

  • (Basilisk) Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Shield Transport, Booster, and Energy Transfer Array capacitor use per level
  • (Guardian) Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Energy Transfer Array, Local, and Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use per level
  • (Oneiros) Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Local and Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use and 10% bonus to Tracking Link efficiency per level
  • (Scimitar) Logistics Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Tracking Link efficiency and 15% reduction in Shield Transport and Booster capacitor use per level
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#23 - 2012-01-13 00:47:20 UTC
So your suggestion is that the Basi and Scim get a cap use bonus to shield boosters and the Ony/Guardian get a cap use bonus to armor reps? I don't think that would materially address why the Basilisk is so superior to the Scimitar.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-01-13 00:53:13 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'd love to see an active tank bonus on the Gal/Minnie logistics. Unfortunately, high sec Incursion carebears seem to be mighty attached to that tracking link bonus and don't give two ***** about how obsolete the TL bonus makes the ships in PVP. :)

-Liang


I can't believe you just seriously suggested a Scimitar is obsolete in PvP.
Aamrr
#25 - 2012-01-13 00:54:49 UTC
I can. I'm not sure I agree with it, but Liang's been of that opinion for years now.

If you're really so concerned about that Liang, we could restrict the local capacitor savings to only the Oneiros and Scimitar. I don't see it as being much of an issue, though.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#26 - 2012-01-13 00:56:55 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'd love to see an active tank bonus on the Gal/Minnie logistics. Unfortunately, high sec Incursion carebears seem to be mighty attached to that tracking link bonus and don't give two ***** about how obsolete the TL bonus makes the ships in PVP. :)

-Liang


I can't believe you just seriously suggested a Scimitar is obsolete in PvP.


I've already taken both of you morons on and shown you not only practically why the Basilisk is better, but also numerically why the Basilisk is better. The only times you're actually smart to bring a Scim is when you expect to face OVERWHELMING EM damage or when you have some reason to suspect the entire fight is going to take place at 5km/s.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#27 - 2012-01-13 00:59:58 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
I can. I'm not sure I agree with it, but Liang's been of that opinion for years now.

If you're really so concerned about that Liang, we could restrict the local capacitor savings to only the Oneiros and Scimitar. I don't see it as being much of an issue, though.


It would be an interesting change, I admit. I think the practical effect would be that the Scim and Ony would be better at RRing while under fire themselves and better under heavy neutralization. I doubt it would be enough to overcome the missing RR + cloak.

I'm unwilling to dismiss it out of hand but I'm reasonably confident its not good enough. :(

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-01-13 01:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Liang Nuren wrote:
The only times you're actually smart to bring a Scim is when you expect to face OVERWHELMING EM damage or when you have some reason to suspect the entire fight is going to take place at 5km/s.


You seem angry. Quick question: do you ever fight in medium gangs?

Aamrr wrote:
I can. I'm not sure I agree with it, but Liang's been of that opinion for years now.


I knew he didn't like it in the niche of small gangs in lowsec where apparently a cloak and active tank are mandatory, but there is a full-spectrum of PvP outside of it.
Aamrr
#29 - 2012-01-13 01:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Liang Nuren wrote:
I've already taken both of you morons on...


Whoa! What did I ever say to deserve this? Sad I was trying to stay out of all this!

And you had just liked one of my posts, too. Cry
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#30 - 2012-01-13 01:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Aztouma
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The only times you're actually smart to bring a Scim is when you expect to face OVERWHELMING EM damage or when you have some reason to suspect the entire fight is going to take place at 5km/s.


You seem angry. Quick question: do you ever fight in medium gangs?


Wait, you mean I should just laugh it off when a pair of otherwise respected people decide that they're going to talk about a topic they haven't ever even thought about and have never flown in and and are scared to fly in and haven't even bothered to theory craft? And then they feel compelled to attack me for 20ish pages for challenging the status quo until I finally prove that they're dead wrong not only practically and from experience but also according to EFT? AND THEN the only solution they can come up with is nerf the Basilisk because Liang is right.

Furthermore, you continue to wage the fight and ask if I ever fly in "medium gangs" (whatever the **** that even means - depending who you talk to thats anywhere from 10 to 500 people for ****'s sake). AND IN EITHER CASE, the Basilisk has more survivability and repping power in both of those situations.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#31 - 2012-01-13 01:34:20 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
Minmatar have the best triage carrier imho but I am in a minority on that opinion. It is 25% squishier than an archon but it RR's 25% better in exchange. And a triage carrier's survival is based almost exclusively on the survival of the subcaps it is repping. It has basically the same tank as a thanny given it has the same slot layout.


Not...exactly. A 25% resist bonus actually corresponds to a 33% increase in anything related to your hit points. EHP, local tank, remote tank all benefit from this 1/3 improvement. By contrast, a 25% remote repair bonus gives exactly 25% more. This is essentially the reason the Nidhoggur's RR-bonus was increased to 7.5% per level. I mention this mostly because you cited the Nidhoggur's old ship bonus.

The recent buff mostly addressed this concern, and as you stated it comes down to whether you're prioritizing the survival of the capital or the subcaps. However, I would like to point out that most subcaps will have better resists than the Nidhoggur repping them, if only because they'll have more slots to fit resist modules. Amarrian ships may even have a resist bonus on top of it. Local reps are also less capacitor efficient than remote, and the triage carrier isn't exactly going to be getting any damage reduction from speed or signature radius...

The next difference is slot configuration. An Archon has an extra low slot at the cost of a midslot. For triage, this basically means trading a Capacitor Power Relay for a Cap Recharger. The former gives a 24% bonus, while the latter gives only a 20% bonus. This ultimately means that an Archon will have 5.3% more capacitor per second. Not a huge gain, but certainly worth noting when people shell out 130 million isk to get the same effect from an implant.

Next, there's the matter of fitting constraints. If you want to bring an armor tanked carrier to assist armor-fitted subcaps, the Archon can bring two local reps and three remote reps. While you're certainly not going to be running all of them full out, the additional rep lets you more quickly respond to target switches -- you can throw a rep on a target who needs it even while your other two are finishing their cycle. If a Nidhoggur tried to do this, it would need almost 6.5% more powergrid, even before fitting the last high slot.

Speaking of high slots, the Archon fits an energy transfer. That energy transfer lets triage pairs and triads exchange capacitor to prepare for a triage cycle. It lets them assist subcaps when they're being neuted or need to neut (Bhaalgorns). And they get a range bonus to it, allowing those subcaps a degree of mobility to do their job that the Nidhoggur simply can't, even if it did have the powergrid to fit it. Capacitor warfare is a huge part of capital warfare. The energy transfer gives the Archon and Chimera a measure of defense.

And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers.

And finally, we get to EHP. The Archon gets more armor, so it gets more benefit from its hardeners. With two faction EANMs fitted, the Archon gets 230k more EHP. Swapping one of those for a damage control, that increases to 244k. That may not seem like a lot in the scale of capital warfare, but it's another 800 DPS the enemy has to deal over that 5 minute period.


A few things, first of all, you are right that I used the old bonuses. I actually haven't dropped the damn thing since the changes nor did I check the bonuses. I only noticed the extra PG and promptly fitted a third RR to it. With that third RR, the archon's burst advantage is gone.

The archon does have a slightly better capacitor due to slot layout as you noted, there is no denying this. However the greater rep amount from the nidhoggur more than compensates. You get a much better sustained RR amount than on the archon. I have often found myself only needing 1 RR sustained to keep people alive when flying the niddy due to this. So as a whole, the niddy ends up with more cap to play with since it is more cap efficient when RRing than the archon is.

You are correct that pretty much all the subcaps will have better resists than the nidhoggur (and possibly an archon too) and thus a better repped tank. The archon also has substantially more EHP. But this doesn't change the fact that in 30-50 man fleets where you would drop a triage carrier, there is a good chance you can tank the enemy fleet for the 5 minute cycle should they decide to call you primary instead of the subcaps. At which point a second triage carrier takes your place and reps you up. This alternating dual triage carriers setup is pretty standard I think and it makes those carriers tough to take down without SC's, even with the weaker tank on the niddy.

But you are correct that it this ultimately comes down to priority. You either put your own tank first or your fleet's.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

Aamrr
#32 - 2012-01-13 01:41:16 UTC
Hrm. Is my fitting tool out of date? I could have sworn you couldn't fit two local repairers and three remote repairers to a Nidhoggur. I lack the skills to fly it, so I'm afraid I can't make that judgment in game.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#33 - 2012-01-13 01:43:44 UTC
Rothgar, did you fit a shield transporter? I remember trying to fit a third armor RR to my niddy and it not fitting... maybe I did something wrong? Can you post your Nid fit?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#34 - 2012-01-13 02:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Linda Shadowborn
Rothgar, yes you can fit 3 remote reppers but no the pretty standard energy transfer on the niddy.. aaallmost with a 5% PG implant.. hmm wonder if you cant with a 6% though that of course takes the place of one of the cap implants.. dammit... nope 6% wont make it either. juuuust to much.

So.. how do you fit it? linky please?

[Nidhoggur, test]

Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
[Empty High slot]
Triage Module I

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Capital Armor Repairer I
Capital Armor Repairer I
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


is what i was looking at.. and that cant fit the energy transfer that the archon fits with ease.
Aamrr
#35 - 2012-01-13 02:25:10 UTC
Those power diagnostics don't provide anywhere near enough capacitor. The Archon would gain a 19% capacitor regen for each CPR you swapped out.
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#36 - 2012-01-13 02:27:14 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Those power diagnostics don't provide anywhere near enough capacitor. The Archon would gain a 19% capacitor regen for each CPR you swapped out.


I know, but was the only way those reppers would fit ^^ I did say i didnt like the nid, which is why i also is interested in his fit.
Aamrr
#37 - 2012-01-13 02:29:05 UTC
Take a look at an ancillary current router instead. You'll get better capacitor numbers. Still not a good idea, though.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#38 - 2012-01-13 02:30:43 UTC
The ACR on a Nid gets competitive capacitor? I... am missing something I fear?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Aamrr
#39 - 2012-01-13 02:36:36 UTC
Competitive? Absolutely not. Better than swapping out two CPRs for PDUs? Yes.
Mumtaz Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-01-13 05:37:11 UTC
snake03 wrote:
Mumtaz Khan wrote:
Amarr. Always Amarr. Unless you plan on using the carrier for WHs, the Archon is always the preferred capital. The Redeemer is also the best Black Ops because its bonuses are actually useful (should you actually decide to engage with it). Gallente would be my second choice, as people are usually pretty satisfied with having a Thanatos if there's not an Archon available. The obvious benefit of going Gallente is that you get the most use out of your drone skills with both the Thanatos and the Sin.

The Nidhoggur is an underestimated and versatile carrier, but I don't have enough good things to say about the Minmatar or Caldari carriers or black ops to make an argument about. Golem and Vargur have their merits if carebearing's your thing.





Your saying that the 30% ECM jammer strength per level of the Widow is'nt useful?


No. It's not.
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