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which carrier, blops, marauder?

Author
Blake Walan
RadioActivia
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#1 - 2012-01-12 03:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Blake Walan
I have decided to train for a carrier, and doing so will pick up blops and possibly marauder as well. I understand each is good for their job, my question is: when you take all three ships into account, which race shines. I live in null and explore/ wh if that helps. The marauder will be used for 10/10 sites, the blops is obvious, and the carrier will be used where ever it shines.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#2 - 2012-01-12 03:26:08 UTC
Blake Walan
RadioActivia
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#3 - 2012-01-12 03:30:48 UTC
Please also provide a brief explanation with concepts and/or fits.
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#4 - 2012-01-12 03:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Luba Cibre
You go for the amarr carrier because of armor supremacy and because of that, you gonna get amarr blops and marauders.
If you wanna rat in that carrier (>ishygddt) you gonna get the thanatos and gallente blops and marauders.

simple as that.

edit: if you can't fit these things without help, you really shouldn't get one.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 

King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#5 - 2012-01-12 04:04:30 UTC
Amarr have the most popular pvp carrier (triage or pantheon) and the best BO's (most lows for cargo expanders!). On the marauder side of things, it's a little less impressive. They are pretty solid for lvl4's but lack the local tank needed to run high end pve content solo. You really want a golem or vargur for that as their active tanking ability is far greater. If local tank isn't overly important for whatever reason, the paladin puts out very solid dps at good range. Really can't complain about it's firepower, it's generally superior to the vargur due to optimal vs falloff. Certainly easier getting ammo too, 100k rounds of barrage is kinda big.Lol

Gallente have the best pve carrier as it's the only one with a dps bonus. From a pvp standpoint, the ability to rep both armor and shields is pretty handy. It may not be as tough as an archon but it has the ability to keep both armor and shield ships alive without refitting. That's pretty handy when you get right down to it. The sin is probably the worst BO's in direct combat. I have no comment on the kronos in pve.

Minmatar have the best triage carrier imho but I am in a minority on that opinion. It is 25% squishier than an archon but it RR's 25% better in exchange. And a triage carrier's survival is based almost exclusively on the survival of the subcaps it is repping. It has basically the same tank as a thanny given it has the same slot layout. The panther is a mediocre gunboat slightly inferior to a hurricane but it does have enough lows to fit a fair number of cargo expanders for fuel. The vargur tanks like a boss for pve, can solo almost any pve content including lvl5's.

Caldari have the worst carrier for everything. The bonuses are fine for shield fleets, the trouble is it's a solid 25% too short on CPU. It simply cannot be fit for triage due to CPU restrictions. Never heard of a shield pantheon fleet and I have no clue as to if it can be fit like that, I suspect no however. The widow is probably the most useful BO's in direct combat since it's a super sized rook. The golem has the same tank as a vargur for pve, should be able to solo just about anything you throw at it.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

Aamrr
#6 - 2012-01-12 09:52:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
King Rothgar wrote:
Minmatar have the best triage carrier imho but I am in a minority on that opinion. It is 25% squishier than an archon but it RR's 25% better in exchange. And a triage carrier's survival is based almost exclusively on the survival of the subcaps it is repping. It has basically the same tank as a thanny given it has the same slot layout.


Not...exactly. A 25% resist bonus actually corresponds to a 33% increase in anything related to your hit points. EHP, local tank, remote tank all benefit from this 1/3 improvement. By contrast, a 25% remote repair bonus gives exactly 25% more. This is essentially the reason the Nidhoggur's RR-bonus was increased to 7.5% per level. I mention this mostly because you cited the Nidhoggur's old ship bonus.

The recent buff mostly addressed this concern, and as you stated it comes down to whether you're prioritizing the survival of the capital or the subcaps. However, I would like to point out that most subcaps will have better resists than the Nidhoggur repping them, if only because they'll have more slots to fit resist modules. Amarrian ships may even have a resist bonus on top of it. Local reps are also less capacitor efficient than remote, and the triage carrier isn't exactly going to be getting any damage reduction from speed or signature radius...

The next difference is slot configuration. An Archon has an extra low slot at the cost of a midslot. For triage, this basically means trading a Capacitor Power Relay for a Cap Recharger. The former gives a 24% bonus, while the latter gives only a 20% bonus. This ultimately means that an Archon will have 5.3% more capacitor per second. Not a huge gain, but certainly worth noting when people shell out 130 million isk to get the same effect from an implant.

Next, there's the matter of fitting constraints. If you want to bring an armor tanked carrier to assist armor-fitted subcaps, the Archon can bring two local reps and three remote reps. While you're certainly not going to be running all of them full out, the additional rep lets you more quickly respond to target switches -- you can throw a rep on a target who needs it even while your other two are finishing their cycle. If a Nidhoggur tried to do this, it would need almost 6.5% more powergrid, even before fitting the last high slot.

Speaking of high slots, the Archon fits an energy transfer. That energy transfer lets triage pairs and triads exchange capacitor to prepare for a triage cycle. It lets them assist subcaps when they're being neuted or need to neut (Bhaalgorns). And they get a range bonus to it, allowing those subcaps a degree of mobility to do their job that the Nidhoggur simply can't, even if it did have the powergrid to fit it. Capacitor warfare is a huge part of capital warfare. The energy transfer gives the Archon and Chimera a measure of defense.

And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers.

And finally, we get to EHP. The Archon gets more armor, so it gets more benefit from its hardeners. With two faction EANMs fitted, the Archon gets 230k more EHP. Swapping one of those for a damage control, that increases to 244k. That may not seem like a lot in the scale of capital warfare, but it's another 800 DPS the enemy has to deal over that 5 minute period.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-01-12 10:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Aamrr wrote:
And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers.


Identical base capacitor regen means they gain the same cap/sec as well regardless of capacitor size. The one factor that counts here is how many slots they can devote to CPR's over Cap Rechargers.

In other words, a Niddy with 4x CPR gains the same cap/sec as an Archon with 4x CPR.
Mumtaz Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-01-12 10:42:02 UTC
Amarr. Always Amarr. Unless you plan on using the carrier for WHs, the Archon is always the preferred capital. The Redeemer is also the best Black Ops because its bonuses are actually useful (should you actually decide to engage with it). Gallente would be my second choice, as people are usually pretty satisfied with having a Thanatos if there's not an Archon available. The obvious benefit of going Gallente is that you get the most use out of your drone skills with both the Thanatos and the Sin.

The Nidhoggur is an underestimated and versatile carrier, but I don't have enough good things to say about the Minmatar or Caldari carriers or black ops to make an argument about. Golem and Vargur have their merits if carebearing's your thing.
Aamrr
#9 - 2012-01-12 12:21:20 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers.


Identical base capacitor regen means they gain the same cap/sec as well regardless of capacitor size. The one factor that counts here is how many slots they can devote to CPR's over Cap Rechargers.

In other words, a Niddy with 4x CPR gains the same cap/sec as an Archon with 4x CPR.


Congratulations, you've completely missed the point. The idea here was that while their sustained capacitor generation is identical, if they're forced to burn through their capacitor faster than it can regenerate, the Archon has a larger buffer to draw upon. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for about 41 GJ/s more.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-01-12 12:59:28 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers.


Identical base capacitor regen means they gain the same cap/sec as well regardless of capacitor size. The one factor that counts here is how many slots they can devote to CPR's over Cap Rechargers.

In other words, a Niddy with 4x CPR gains the same cap/sec as an Archon with 4x CPR.


Congratulations, you've completely missed the point. The idea here was that while their sustained capacitor generation is identical, if they're forced to burn through their capacitor faster than it can regenerate, the Archon has a larger buffer to draw upon. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for about 41 GJ/s more.


Right. It is bad practice to explain a fixed cap bonus with a cap/sec number though so I blame that on the misconception.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-01-12 14:27:34 UTC
Archon for carrier, hands down. You have the best capacitor (both in regen and buffer), the best resists, and the fitting to use them effectively for both triage and Pantheon work.

As to Black Ops: Redeemer is a solid starting point; from there, you can crosstrain to the Widow and Panther, which will allow you to fill in wherever needed in a Black Ops based gang.

Marauder: much more situational.

The Paladin excels against Rogue Drones, but those are crap anyway; it can tank/spank most L4s with ease (but not Angel/Minmatar missions!) though, but will struggle with PvE that requires high burst tanks (such as L5s or nullsec anom/DED complex tanking). Fit Mega Pulse or Mega Beam to it: tachyon Pallys are VERY tight on PG and have cap issues as well.

The Golem has excellent burst tanking ability and can be used for all L4 content, unlike the Pally or Kronos. Its poor sensor strength means it is a poor choice for high-end anti-Gurista work though. (You will have serious trouble with jamming.) You will need to learn how to use your painters effectively to get full effect from your torpedoes; this represents the major learning curve with the Golem actually.

The Kronos is a rather unremarkable Marauder, but can be good against Serpentis rats. Again, the lack of changeable damage types means that Angel/Minmatar PvE is going to be troublesome, and blaster fits tend to put a lot of stress on their capacitor due to the need to run a propmod to get in range of long-range rats such as Guristas, Sanshas, and some Serps. (Rail fits tend to have tracking troubles unless you can get overheated webs out to about 20km or so, which is doable with a faction web + skirmish link boosting.)

The Vargur hands-down is the most versatile Marauder. It combines the burst-tanking ability and switchable damage of the Golem with a massive falloff bonus to autocannons, allowing it to hit fast, close-in rats such as Angels without losing its ability to engage say Sanshas or long-range Serpentis rats. Again, Gurista jamming is a problem; Marauders are generally not used against Guristas for that reason.

So, a guide by rat type:
Rogue Drone: Paladin, hands down.
Blood: any of the four.
Plain ol' Sansha: Paladin, Kronos, and to some extent the Vargur. Golem may (will?) have range issues in this case.
Merc: any of the four (Golem wins here, though)
EoM: any of the four.
Serpentis: Golem, Kronos, Vargur. (Paladins are strained enough on cap without running a propmod to get in range when damped!)
Guristas: Don't bother with a Marauder here. Tengu beats them all hands down due to the ability to achieve >50 sensor strength wtih ease.
Angels: Vargur, Golem, Kronos. (Lasers are generally a poor choice against Angels.)

Finally, if you decide to take your Marauder outside the traditional PvE realm:
Sleepers: Paladin, rail Kronos, Vargur. Golem will have range issues with some Sleeper BS.
Incursion Sanshas: Vargur, Paladin, Kronos. Golem has serious range + some application problems, depending on the site.
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-01-12 16:17:11 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Amarr.


A. Armor tanking awesomeness unbound.
B. Paladin 4 100% bonused lasers, 2 Salvagers, 2 TBeams = fast missioning/salvaging.
C. Reedemers can bit fit to be death to ~anything~ smaller than a BS.
D. Archon is IMO the best triage carrier hands down.
E. Becuase I said so! Twisted
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Aamrr
#13 - 2012-01-12 17:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
Congratulations, you've completely missed the point. The idea here was that while their sustained capacitor generation is identical, if they're forced to burn through their capacitor faster than it can regenerate, the Archon has a larger buffer to draw upon. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for about 41 GJ/s more.


Right. It is bad practice to explain a fixed cap bonus with a cap/sec number though so I blame that on the misconception.

And when I'm trying to express the value of a fixed amount of capacitor over a specified period, what units would you suggest I use? Capacitor...per...time...

I even went so far as to explain where the calculation came from. Your misunderstanding is no fault but your own.
snake03
#14 - 2012-01-12 22:00:12 UTC
Mumtaz Khan wrote:
Amarr. Always Amarr. Unless you plan on using the carrier for WHs, the Archon is always the preferred capital. The Redeemer is also the best Black Ops because its bonuses are actually useful (should you actually decide to engage with it). Gallente would be my second choice, as people are usually pretty satisfied with having a Thanatos if there's not an Archon available. The obvious benefit of going Gallente is that you get the most use out of your drone skills with both the Thanatos and the Sin.

The Nidhoggur is an underestimated and versatile carrier, but I don't have enough good things to say about the Minmatar or Caldari carriers or black ops to make an argument about. Golem and Vargur have their merits if carebearing's your thing.





Your saying that the 30% ECM jammer strength per level of the Widow is'nt useful?

I'm just a modern day caveman in search of a bigger club.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#15 - 2012-01-12 22:13:52 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
Minmatar have the best triage carrier imho but I am in a minority on that opinion. It is 25% squishier than an archon but it RR's 25% better in exchange. And a triage carrier's survival is based almost exclusively on the survival of the subcaps it is repping. It has basically the same tank as a thanny given it has the same slot layout.


Not...exactly. A 25% resist bonus actually corresponds to a 33% increase in anything related to your hit points. EHP, local tank, remote tank all benefit from this 1/3 improvement. By contrast, a 25% remote repair bonus gives exactly 25% more. This is essentially the reason the Nidhoggur's RR-bonus was increased to 7.5% per level. I mention this mostly because you cited the Nidhoggur's old ship bonus.

The recent buff mostly addressed this concern, and as you stated it comes down to whether you're prioritizing the survival of the capital or the subcaps. However, I would like to point out that most subcaps will have better resists than the Nidhoggur repping them, if only because they'll have more slots to fit resist modules. Amarrian ships may even have a resist bonus on top of it. Local reps are also less capacitor efficient than remote, and the triage carrier isn't exactly going to be getting any damage reduction from speed or signature radius...

The next difference is slot configuration. An Archon has an extra low slot at the cost of a midslot. For triage, this basically means trading a Capacitor Power Relay for a Cap Recharger. The former gives a 24% bonus, while the latter gives only a 20% bonus. This ultimately means that an Archon will have 5.3% more capacitor per second. Not a huge gain, but certainly worth noting when people shell out 130 million isk to get the same effect from an implant.

Next, there's the matter of fitting constraints. If you want to bring an armor tanked carrier to assist armor-fitted subcaps, the Archon can bring two local reps and three remote reps. While you're certainly not going to be running all of them full out, the additional rep lets you more quickly respond to target switches -- you can throw a rep on a target who needs it even while your other two are finishing their cycle. If a Nidhoggur tried to do this, it would need almost 6.5% more powergrid, even before fitting the last high slot.

Speaking of high slots, the Archon fits an energy transfer. That energy transfer lets triage pairs and triads exchange capacitor to prepare for a triage cycle. It lets them assist subcaps when they're being neuted or need to neut (Bhaalgorns). And they get a range bonus to it, allowing those subcaps a degree of mobility to do their job that the Nidhoggur simply can't, even if it did have the powergrid to fit it. Capacitor warfare is a huge part of capital warfare. The energy transfer gives the Archon and Chimera a measure of defense.

And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers.

And finally, we get to EHP. The Archon gets more armor, so it gets more benefit from its hardeners. With two faction EANMs fitted, the Archon gets 230k more EHP. Swapping one of those for a damage control, that increases to 244k. That may not seem like a lot in the scale of capital warfare, but it's another 800 DPS the enemy has to deal over that 5 minute period.


This is a damn fine post.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#16 - 2012-01-12 22:17:21 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Caldari have the worst carrier for everything. The bonuses are fine for shield fleets, the trouble is it's a solid 25% too short on CPU. It simply cannot be fit for triage due to CPU restrictions.
Times are a-changin', check Sisi/Chaos data.
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#17 - 2012-01-12 22:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Linda Shadowborn
I sooooo want the nid for looks, but as Aamarr already explained, the archon is just better unless you are just pos repping. (joy).

*sighs* poor niddy, best looking but thats about it.
Yan Li Mae
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-01-12 23:00:28 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
Caldari have the worst carrier for everything. The bonuses are fine for shield fleets, the trouble is it's a solid 25% too short on CPU. It simply cannot be fit for triage due to CPU restrictions.
Times are a-changin', check Sisi/Chaos data.


DO NOT ******* TEASE ME! OUT WITH IT!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#19 - 2012-01-12 23:09:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Yan Li Mae wrote:
Daneel Trevize wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
Caldari have the worst carrier for everything. The bonuses are fine for shield fleets, the trouble is it's a solid 25% too short on CPU. It simply cannot be fit for triage due to CPU restrictions.
Times are a-changin', check Sisi/Chaos data.


DO NOT ******* TEASE ME! OUT WITH IT!


-27 CPU per cap remote shield rep, IIRC. I worked out a deadspace fit Chimera fit for WH triage use and it looked pretty sexy.

-Liang

Ed: I haven't done any carrier testing on the test server. I also cannot fly a Chimera, and do not ever fit shield transporters to my Niddy. The idea behind the boost is a good idea, and it should propagate down to smaller logis (where I have extensive experienve)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Aamrr
#20 - 2012-01-13 00:06:22 UTC
Do you usually find yourself CPU constrained on your Basilisk, Liang? (I know you aren't a fan of Scimitars.) I obviously can't speak for you, but I can't say I've ever had an issue with CPU. Perhaps it's because you locally active tank -- needless to say, an X-large shield booster would readily explain the discrepancy.

I'm not sure that that's a standard use case for the Basilisk, though -- I think it's a problem that would be more readily addressed by an active tanking bonus on the Gallente and Minmatar Logistics (I suggest capacitor reduction).
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