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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

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I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#781 - 2012-01-12 15:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
AspiB'elt wrote:
Sorry "I'm Down"

Nerfing the web is really not a good idea and certainly not the solution.

But if you increase the weapon signature on the capital turret, it's certainly the best thing to do.

With 2000 of weapon signature that would be difficult to track HAS ans perhaps Battleship afterburner in short range.
If you can't track you can come with support with web.

PL have already make some test with titan and loki with web, in this case you have not problem to hit your target.

The problem now it's titan didn't need support, we are exactly in the same situation than before crucible with the mothership.


Change stacking web : You have a lot of problem against nano fleet (or tengu 100mn).
Tracking stacking : it's a problem for Amarr BS and certainly not a good idea.

Perhaps the best way in short term will be. That will be not possible to fit tracking module on titan or painter ETC.

or create some capital tracking module (with less bonus than T2) and use a lot of cap.




Webbing can be bumped up to 75% max to help counter the pure nano destruction of old. But if you're only allowed 1 web and a scram to neutralize speed, then you're not going to be able to achieve anything more than maybe 1200 m/s if your MWD stays on in the fastest of frigates or about 500 if you oversize AB a ship. That's a totally fair scenario for speed vs webbing.

Especially considering there are further counters such as Neutralizing and Missile fleets that kick in with those much lower speed fleets as counters.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#782 - 2012-01-12 16:34:46 UTC
What is the purpose of the Titan, answer that and the solution presents itself.

As I see them: Fleet vanguards bringing brawns in the form of dps/ehp and brains in the form of quite large gang bonuses, while the primary foodstuff of Titan's is other capitals/structures and supposedly balanced in their need for support.
If above is accurate, then why can they even lock sub-caps?

Solution:
- Give them back some drones (they were removed right?), for assigning to support and auto-aggression.
- Tweak/refine their fleet bonuses upwards.
- Remove ability to lock sub-caps entirely. There is no other way to prevent gun platforms from hitting things due to the way the tracking formula works.
Ryans Revenge
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#783 - 2012-01-13 12:53:46 UTC
I think it all needs looking at a high level again myself. After talking to friends I personally believe the following:

Titan: As is but can only shoot capital ships. Should not be able to 1 shot anything at all and multiple doomsdays should not be allowed on a single target. Hitting for big damage and cripling tanks for dreads to finish up targets. Maybe even possibly change the role from damage ship to an extremely large bhaalgorn type ship that can kill other capital tanks adding another level of gameplay to fleet fights.

Motherships:
Should be ships that carry other ships. E.g. A cynoable station people can dock in then undock on the field. Very limited offensive power other than to protect itself. Maybe insane tanking ship. Should be able to carry a whole lot of ships so when people die they can effectively redock and reship. This means it would be a BIG target to take out for the opposing fleet to stop reinforcements.

Carrier: Capital Logistic ship to repair other capital ships. Also very limited offense. Maybe no drones at all but bonus' to all sorts of remote modules.

Dread: Capital damage ship. Brings the pain. The main offensive ship out there but dies easily without the support of the carrier and the mothership bringing in the fleet. Should have a very weak tank unless they are in seige. Should not be allowed to self rep but can be remote repped while in seige. Therefore needing the support of carriers to be used.

Obviously these are radical changes but open up a lot more interesting game play.
Ryans Revenge
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#784 - 2012-01-13 13:00:47 UTC
Also regarding the above this would reduce the amount of drones/fighters on field decreasing lag. You could then even introduce a second tier of dreads with different damage bonus' like you do with other ships in game. Just for an easy example you could have a gallente blaster dread and also a gallente fighter dread.

Just food for thought.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#785 - 2012-01-13 13:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
The doomsday is and has always been stupid in all its forms and has always provided an incentive to mass titans which is even more stupid.

What if it was an area effect debuff?

Amarr: -5% capacitor recharge and cap transfer per level
Gallente: -3% armor resistances per level
Caldari: -3% shield resistances per level
Minmatar: -5% remote rep and shield transfer effectiveness per level

Affects all enemies and neutrals on grid. No more reason to field more than one Titan of each type (let's leave the tracking aside as it's a separate thing), other than perhaps for backup.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#786 - 2012-01-16 15:59:29 UTC
made-up-on-the-spot idea:

The doomsday should be a grid-wide siege module rather than a directly offensive weapon. Titan in FC slot activates DD, titan is frozen in place for 5 minutes, all ships on grid and in fleet get massive tanking and damage bonuses similar to those provided by a local siege module. Doesn't work inside POS shields, etc.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
seany1212
M Y S T
#787 - 2012-01-16 18:20:24 UTC
EmmerTemp wrote:
Baki Yuku wrote:

.. I'll say this 40b in minerals should damn well be able to kill something..


Yep... agreed... Titans should be able to shoot subcaps as they do now, but... they are at the moment tracking
interceptors and that should not be possible or atleast be very hard. They can shoot BS and maybe some large BC but no frigates.


This, as I said in a previous post about titans tracking you should not be able to shoot a fly with a bazooka.
DurrHurrDurr
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#788 - 2012-01-16 22:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: DurrHurrDurr
Hi.

The current Raiden. turret-fit Titans have an average tracking of 0.02. The Pandemic Legion turret-fit Titans are similar.

To give everyone a basline; the GSF/CFC Alphafleet Maelstrom has a tracking of 0.01 and the standard pulsebaddon has a tracking of 0.04.

While this is a very obvious issue that isn't particularly difficult to figure out, part of the issue arises not from the actual supercapital hull but from the current meta involving min/maxing the fits as much as humanly possible for maximum results through the liberal usage of faction/officer mods.

The single worst issue with current supercapital meta is their intensely effective tracking; so much so that titans are able to obliterate even ships like a Cynabal and Dramiel moving at high transversal due to the fact that all it takes to one-shot them is a glancing blow.

The practical application of damage from a titan against a subcap is obscene. Raw damage capabilities of a grouped set of Titan weapons fit for tracking and damage lead to the only requirement for use against subcapitals being whether or not they hit. Their immense raw damage means that any hit will instantly kill nearly any subcapital ship regardless of how well they hit. A glancing blow will instantly destroy all but the heaviest of buffer-fit battleships. The issue of immensely heavy-buffer fit battleships, however, is that a tracking of 0.02 will have no issues whatsoever landing solid blows against them.
DurrHurrDurr
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#789 - 2012-01-16 22:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: DurrHurrDurr
Note that the above post is post-nerf; the use of remote tracking links on Titans to increase their effectiveness in combat was not particularly common practice, and were, for the most part, edge cases and niche uses.r

The tracking issues for Titans are entirely within the confines of the Titans themselves.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#790 - 2012-01-17 09:01:12 UTC
^^^ Agreed.

Please buff Titans to allow remote tracking links, and AOE DD's.

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CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#791 - 2012-01-18 11:40:22 UTC
DurrHurrDurr wrote:
Hi.

The current Raiden. turret-fit Titans have an average tracking of 0.02. The Pandemic Legion turret-fit Titans are similar.

To give everyone a basline; the GSF/CFC Alphafleet Maelstrom has a tracking of 0.01 and the standard pulsebaddon has a tracking of 0.04.

While this is a very obvious issue that isn't particularly difficult to figure out, part of the issue arises not from the actual supercapital hull but from the current meta involving min/maxing the fits as much as humanly possible for maximum results through the liberal usage of faction/officer mods.

The single worst issue with current supercapital meta is their intensely effective tracking; so much so that titans are able to obliterate even ships like a Cynabal and Dramiel moving at high transversal due to the fact that all it takes to one-shot them is a glancing blow.

The practical application of damage from a titan against a subcap is obscene. Raw damage capabilities of a grouped set of Titan weapons fit for tracking and damage lead to the only requirement for use against subcapitals being whether or not they hit. Their immense raw damage means that any hit will instantly kill nearly any subcapital ship regardless of how well they hit. A glancing blow will instantly destroy all but the heaviest of buffer-fit battleships. The issue of immensely heavy-buffer fit battleships, however, is that a tracking of 0.02 will have no issues whatsoever landing solid blows against them.


Agreeing with a DHD post... times must be tough

Nerf bazookas, protect the flies!
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#792 - 2012-01-20 02:57:23 UTC
I miss AOE doomsdays
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#793 - 2012-01-20 22:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
I still don't buy these "wiping out Dramiels with high/max transversal" stories, particularly seen as they are always lacking any details (e.g. "yeah well that guy was triple webbed, and triple painted, and at 100km distance...")

Even if you can get the tracking up to 0.02 rads/sec (4 Cormacks tracking computers with scripts and 5% hardwiring right?....) the sig. resolution is still around 4 times the sig. radius of a MWD'ing frigate, and 2.5 times the sig. resolution of large turrets.

'Wrecking hits' of course, are a different kettle of fish, but aside from those I'd wager 'pilot error'...

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#794 - 2012-01-22 07:06:13 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
I still don't buy these "wiping out Dramiels with high/max transversal" stories, particularly seen as they are always lacking any details (e.g. "yeah well that guy was triple webbed, and triple painted, and at 100km distance...")

Even if you can get the tracking up to 0.02 rads/sec (4 Cormacks tracking computers with scripts and 5% hardwiring right?....) the sig. resolution is still around 4 times the sig. radius of a MWD'ing frigate, and 2.5 times the sig. resolution of large turrets.

'Wrecking hits' of course, are a different kettle of fish, but aside from those I'd wager 'pilot error'...


I too am very skeptical about these claims as well. As a capital pilot my guns have trouble hitting cruisers with 3 tracking computers at 40km moving at 200ms.

Until i see actually evidence, I will have to dismiss these claims as factors separate from turret tracking.
Max50
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#795 - 2012-01-22 13:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Max50
The main problem when dealing SCs with subcaps wasnt really the abiblity of the sc's to do high damage with lots of drones.It was the fact that dropping 20 sentry drones(even T1 because many times you just left them if you had to bail) and assigning them to 1 target caller with a target painter was enough to make the perfect alpha strike fleet that worked properly in various lag contitions.The subcap dude never knew if he was getting primaried because only 1 dude was locking him so the logistics made no difference.
What would be the case though if the sc's didnt had the option to assign drones to 1 target caller?You would have a sc gang with low scan res that each pilot had to take the broadcasted target and wait for the target caller to fire.This by itself would negate the alpha strike issue for subcaps,it would give time to someone to warp off,broadcast for reps(he would see all those yellow boxes) and recieve satisfactory amount of reps because in null sec there are many logistic ships fielded.It would stop the ridiculous jump in...drop sentries and assign to,go afk to make cofee and return when the 250 welp gang is dead 5 minutes later.

As sc's are now,there is a lot of gaming content lost especially for smaller entities or even solo players.With the addition of the new agro mechanic you wouldnt have to make a 50 man gang to kill a sc in 15 minutes.I think removing the possibility for a small entity to have the option to project a lot of power using expensive ships is not good.It creates even more blob when everyone is "asking" to deblob.How can a small entity grind sov structures now?It cant.
its kind of stupid to nerf a ship so much that was and still is a very nice target for blobs to kill but was usefull to use against a blob to hit them too.
In the end i am not really mad not to drop a sc in POSs and stuff,perhaps a bit disapointed to see a nice PVP ship turned to just an amazing ISK grinder making more than 500MIL per hour with it
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#796 - 2012-01-22 16:21:52 UTC
DurrHurrDurr wrote:
Hi.

The current Raiden. turret-fit Titans have an average tracking of 0.02. The Pandemic Legion turret-fit Titans are similar.

To give everyone a basline; the GSF/CFC Alphafleet Maelstrom has a tracking of 0.01 and the standard pulsebaddon has a tracking of 0.04.

While this is a very obvious issue that isn't particularly difficult to figure out, part of the issue arises not from the actual supercapital hull but from the current meta involving min/maxing the fits as much as humanly possible for maximum results through the liberal usage of faction/officer mods.

The single worst issue with current supercapital meta is their intensely effective tracking; so much so that titans are able to obliterate even ships like a Cynabal and Dramiel moving at high transversal due to the fact that all it takes to one-shot them is a glancing blow.

The practical application of damage from a titan against a subcap is obscene. Raw damage capabilities of a grouped set of Titan weapons fit for tracking and damage lead to the only requirement for use against subcapitals being whether or not they hit. Their immense raw damage means that any hit will instantly kill nearly any subcapital ship regardless of how well they hit. A glancing blow will instantly destroy all but the heaviest of buffer-fit battleships. The issue of immensely heavy-buffer fit battleships, however, is that a tracking of 0.02 will have no issues whatsoever landing solid blows against them.


You're stupid you know that? Titan Tracking is fine as is wanna know why? Cuz you have to trade tank for tracking sounds perfectly fine for me.. Titans in groups are no more or less balanced then a 1000 man alpha fleet.. the only reason we hear so many goons ***** about titans is because you're to stupid to counter it. And yes there are ways and strategies to counter the titan blob you just think that bitching about them will let CCP fix it for you. Guess what you guess'd wrong. Sooo sorry...
Isbariya
State War Academy
Caldari State
#797 - 2012-01-25 10:58:50 UTC
well the csm minutes as well as the old ask us everything thread said you guys are thinking
about letting supercarriers dock at outposts.
Sounds fine to me, but in my opinion they should be able to dock at regular stations, too.
The reason is that it would be an big advantage for alliances with sov.
Make it even and allow supers to dock at npc stations as well or don't let them dock at all.
We have been fine all these years, we'll be fine then.
So all or no one !
MastahFR
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#798 - 2012-01-28 13:48:41 UTC
Still no news about the Hel possible change ? We got the DED invu great, now what about a ship we could use ?
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#799 - 2012-01-29 13:25:28 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
What is the purpose of the Titan, answer that and the solution presents itself.

As I see them: Fleet vanguards bringing brawns in the form of dps/ehp and brains in the form of quite large gang bonuses, while the primary foodstuff of Titan's is other capitals/structures and supposedly balanced in their need for support.
If above is accurate, then why can they even lock sub-caps?

Solution:
- Give them back some drones (they were removed right?), for assigning to support and auto-aggression.
- Tweak/refine their fleet bonuses upwards.
- Remove ability to lock sub-caps entirely. There is no other way to prevent gun platforms from hitting things due to the way the tracking formula works.


+1 to this.

Remove the ability of super caps to target and or fire upon sub capital ships completely.

Then remove the ability for sub caps to target supers and or deal any damage regardless of the sheer size of the sub cap blob that would be of any concern to the super cap ships.

Boost caps to counter both groups and or be vulnerable to both groups accordingly. Add one or two more hulls with new roles and presto.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#800 - 2012-01-30 07:39:12 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
What is the purpose of the Titan, answer that and the solution presents itself.

As I see them: Fleet vanguards bringing brawns in the form of dps/ehp and brains in the form of quite large gang bonuses, while the primary foodstuff of Titan's is other capitals/structures and supposedly balanced in their need for support.
If above is accurate, then why can they even lock sub-caps?

Solution:
- Give them back some drones (they were removed right?), for assigning to support and auto-aggression.
- Tweak/refine their fleet bonuses upwards.
- Remove ability to lock sub-caps entirely. There is no other way to prevent gun platforms from hitting things due to the way the tracking formula works.


+1 to this.

Remove the ability of super caps to target and or fire upon sub capital ships completely.

Then remove the ability for sub caps to target supers and or deal any damage regardless of the sheer size of the sub cap blob that would be of any concern to the super cap ships.

Boost caps to counter both groups and or be vulnerable to both groups accordingly. Add one or two more hulls with new roles and presto.


Honestly, as far as ideas go? This one is pretty ******* stupid.

Why in the name of His noodly appendage would CCP ever want to restrict super caps like that??

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