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Dev blog: Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security

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Mnemosyne Ab aeterno
The Huskarl's
#381 - 2016-02-27 11:17:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mnemosyne Ab aeterno
So dev dudes,

You say in a mail. Using Pirates little helper is ok. But in the ban able offence is any program or application that gives an unfair advantage to another player.

So are you going to let other players know about every other mod that is out there?

How are new players going to know the right tools or the wrong tools to use?

For me knowing a player and who he /she is before they have chance to de-cloak is unfair... so is this now double standards?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#382 - 2016-02-27 14:38:34 UTC
Mnemosyne Ab aeterno wrote:
So dev dudes,

You say in a mail. Using Pirates little helper is ok. But in the ban able offence is any program or application that gives an unfair advantage to another player.

So are you going to let other players know about every other mod that is out there?

How are new players going to know the right tools or the wrong tools to use?

For me knowing a player and who he /she is before they have chance to de-cloak is unfair... so is this now double standards?

Maybe after you own someone (or warp off just before they light their cyno) you should put a link to PLH in local just to be sure they can also take advantage of it.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#383 - 2016-02-27 15:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
CCP Grimmi wrote:
Also, a lot of people have asked for lists of allowed applications/tools.

We cannot sanction 3rd party programs that we do not create or have any control over. Period.


Of course you can. You already did it with ISBoxer and you can do it with every other tool that is being asked about. Actually this seems to be part of the job, so why even wait ? Just start doing it.

The crux is that you're too lazy to do it and prefer that vague bullshit called "EULA" that can be bent and applied to anything at any time as you see fit.

Quote:
We may tolerate the use of applications or tools that enhance your enjoyment of the game. This is done at our discretion and only as long as no unfair advantages are gained by you or others by the use of said applications or tools.


You don't "tolerate". You encourage. The game is nearly unplayable without 3rd party tools either way (masochists aside).

Nearly everything provided by those tools is about the "unfair advantage", becuase people not using those tools remain in blind and without the advantage provided by said tools. Starting with trivial stuff like min-maxed ship fits or inter-region market data availabe in one place that the game was deliberately designed not to provide.

So please stop with this gigantic hypocrisy. You can start with precisely defining what is and isn't that mysterious "unfair advantage".

Quote:
Thank you for your attention and fly safe!


I'm sure you realise how that sentence makes you look like after that devblog.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
Memphis Baas
#384 - 2016-02-27 16:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
I agree.

CCP, you can certainly implement a system where 3rd-party devs can submit source code and you can certify that particular version as ok to use; it just requires work and you don't want to do it. You think it's easier to mass ban once things get too far, and that's what you've threatened us with; you don't seem to realize that these threats **** off your community and your 3rd-party devs, ultimately resulting in reduced subs.

And also, you've shown no sign of any sort of effort to add some of the useful 3rd-party functionality to the game. As I repeated a couple times already, if we're not allowed to improve upon your game UI, then you have to do it. I'm not gonna say you're lazy, cause you're not, but you've assumed a stance on this whole issue that is quite unprofessional. As evidenced by the derision we have when comparing EVE Central, EFT, PLH, Evernus, and so on (the list is long) vs. the limits the client still imposes on information.

You're being taken to school by the 3rd party devs.

The whole game is a sandbox: you enjoy players generating content (as do we), and yet you clearly have control over everything in-game. Let us generate content for the UI interface while you retain the same level of control: set up an UI add-ons framework that lets you retain full control and lets us improve the UI, and you can police us that much more closely because the addons hook into the client, rather than existing as 3rd party software installed on our private drives that frankly you have no business searching.

That said, I'm gonna drop the topic; I'm repeating myself and it's pointless to continue doing so.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#385 - 2016-02-27 19:22:36 UTC
On a different note - while the effort taken to clear up the obscure phrasing in the EULA in the forums is certainly appreciated, I would like to point out that most players will certainly not dig through a 20 page thread to figure out what the EULA means.

I would take a bet and say that most players have not even read the EULA, but those who did should be able to tell what they may or may not do without digging up old dev posts.
Alexis Nightwish
#386 - 2016-02-27 20:59:16 UTC
Question:

If a player with a clean account (no previous bans or whatever) comes forward to use the amnesty program, will his account be flagged so that he cannot trade characters, even though he won't receive a ban?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Ravana 729
A Drunken Squirrels' Conspiracy for Revenge
#387 - 2016-02-27 21:25:48 UTC
When other companies do not like an addon, they code their game so it's impossible to use it.

My wife plays for me sometimes while I instruct her because of the meds I'm on 90% of the time when I am in fleets or anything requiring extremely fast response time, so I really sympathize with people who would like to use third party apps for completely legitimate reasons. In many other games part of the joy of the game is fastidiously keeping up with addons and for some crazy amazing people, programming them. Many of these companies realize how this is just unpaid work done for them.

On a positive note at least they seem to be allowing blue responses?

I am pretty sure my wife ragequit her account because of CCP's complete lack of responsiveness to her concerns.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#388 - 2016-02-27 22:09:11 UTC
So... you don't use third party apps you use a third party? Pirate

That's pretty baller. If I could afford it I would hire people to fly my characters and RP command them in a room set up like the flight deck of the USS Enterprise. Probably even have uniforms.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#389 - 2016-02-28 00:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Death Reactor
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=471349&find=unread

Windows is a 3rd party application<-----The decision to prohibit people from using portions of each game into one window needs to be reversed. I can understand input automation and broadcasts but this particular part needs to be recinded. You can already almost do it with clever window positioning of the clients. CCP needs to be less about a player cannot get advantage over another and should go in the direction of a account cannot gain a advantage. I run 16 accounts and while i am in compliance with these rulings i feel they need to be changed.

:edit If multiboxing is allowed according to the eula...shouldnt someone who is mulitboxing and not cheating or botting as free as possible to make each of those clients approach the same effectivness as if it were their sole account as humanly possible and only take human error and the time to click the buttons into account for any degradation.

Nuances matter. Might have legal take another look.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#390 - 2016-02-28 01:38:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Just gonna leave this here...

"Third party applications are programs written to work within operating systems, but are written by individuals or companies other than the provider of the operating system. "

Eve is a 3rd party app. Not windows.

And since operating these 3rd party app's, does most certainly provide an advantage they are correctly and should remain against eula.

Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#391 - 2016-02-28 02:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Death Reactor
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Just gonna leave this here...

"Third party applications are programs written to work within operating systems, but are written by individuals or companies other than the provider of the operating system. "

Eve is a 3rd party app. Not windows.

And since operating these 3rd party app's, does most certainly provide an advantage they are correctly and should remain against eula.


Stalk much? Windows is a application that operates at a high languge communcating a interface to the computers binary code.

Windows is not the computer or the computers native environment.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#392 - 2016-02-28 02:04:36 UTC
If we're getting answers, I'd still like to know what this bit of the EULA means:

"You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale."

EVE characters don't have a level or rank, so what's inappropriate?
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#393 - 2016-02-28 02:06:33 UTC
Just posting in the directed thread.

"Windows is a application that operates at a high languge communcating a interface to the computers binary code." Does not make windows a 3rd party app.

Besides you can try to play semantics all you want.

"having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules."

Says it all. Doesn't matter if you like it, doesn't matter how you want to interpret the definition of a 3rd party app. You say you can do the same thing just using windows... then do it. Then the eula won't make any difference.

Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#394 - 2016-02-28 02:13:26 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Just posting in the directed thread.

"Windows is a application that operates at a high languge communcating a interface to the computers binary code." Does not make windows a 3rd party app.

Besides you can try to play semantics all you want.

"having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules."

Says it all. Doesn't matter if you like it, doesn't matter how you want to interpret the definition of a 3rd party app. You say you can do the same thing just using windows... then do it. Then the eula won't make any difference.


A. It makes windows a app and last i checked ccp does not have any IP on windows.
B.If the issue is getting real time data without clicking on the client then that would mean running more than 1 app at a time would be a bannable offense because having more than one window does give real time data.

words matter. I feel you have been pretty outdone. Thanks for playing.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#395 - 2016-02-28 02:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Just gonna post this for you one more time...

"Third party applications are programs written to work within operating systems, but are written by individuals or companies other than the provider of the operating system. "

And from another source...

"Third party software refers to programs that are developed by companies other than the company that developed the computer's operating system."

So unless you can tell me what operating system windows operates under then you're just continuing to speak out of the wrong orifice. Your argument reeks of desperation at defending your isk cow. Your own argument defeats itself. The ability to combine multiple client interface elements into a single window unarguably presents an advantage to the user. Your own arguments state that, although you claim you can do the same thing with windows itself without 3rd party software, doing so is more difficult. So there you go, the extra software makes it easier i.e. present an advantage.

Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#396 - 2016-02-28 02:22:51 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Just gonna post this for you one more time...

"Third party applications are programs written to work within operating systems, but are written by individuals or companies other than the provider of the operating system. "

And from another source...
"Third party software refers to programs that are developed by companies other than the company that developed the computer's operating system."

So unless you can tell me what operating system windows operates under then you're just continuing to speak out of the wrong orifice. Your argument reeks of desperation at defending your isk cow.


You keep posting a quote from wisegeeks like it matters?
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#397 - 2016-02-28 02:24:48 UTC
Am I supposed to read 20 pages which would be more than technical?
Or am I supposed to read 10 pages which would be technical?
Or am I supposed to read 4 pages which would be more manageable?
Or am I supposed to read 1 or 2 pages to make it easier to deal with?

I think that to expect CCP to do things that would hinder them or be worst to them is going to lead to that and other obvious consequences.

Why and how could they implement 3rd party systems which are allowed even though it would cause too much stress on their system to try to implement them or integrate them?

Why should they publish system designs which were created to keep the system functional if it is going to be used against them?


I won't go over the rest of the details in this thread at this time yet.
There exists such thing as feasibility.
The fact that they kept the game feasible after all those years already is their greatest achievement and record.

I don't even think that it is possible for them to know all the details internally at all times.

I can't even program in Python yet which is one of the main coding requirements for this (coding) system.
It is in great part what allowed them to port legacy code with such efficiency (if not the most, as mentionned above).

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#398 - 2016-02-28 02:24:52 UTC
"a program (as a word processor or a spreadsheet) that performs one of the major tasks for which a computer is used" from the dictionary. Id say being a interface that communicates high language to binary fits that role.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#399 - 2016-02-28 02:26:03 UTC
Death Reactor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Just gonna post this for you one more time...

"Third party applications are programs written to work within operating systems, but are written by individuals or companies other than the provider of the operating system. "

And from another source...
"Third party software refers to programs that are developed by companies other than the company that developed the computer's operating system."

So unless you can tell me what operating system windows operates under then you're just continuing to speak out of the wrong orifice. Your argument reeks of desperation at defending your isk cow.


You keep posting a quote from wisegeeks like it matters?


Edit: look up the definition of third party software for yourself. The source doesn't matter the answer is the same. (hence the second source definition I added in on that last post)

Daemun of Khanid
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#400 - 2016-02-28 02:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Death Reactor wrote:
"a program (as a word processor or a spreadsheet) that performs one of the major tasks for which a computer is used" from the dictionary. Id say being a interface that communicates high language to binary fits that role.


Making up your own definitions doesn't really have binding on a EULA written up by lawyers that are better at this whole semantics game than you are.

I'll say again, your entire argument is a wildly desperate attempt at protecting your "advantage." As such you hardly qualify as a subjective party.

It's against EULA, deal with it.

Daemun of Khanid