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Dev blog: Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security

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Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#181 - 2016-02-24 13:31:57 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
OK consider this. Would you agree that using something like ISBoxer to move your overview on the same screen as your active client so you can see it while it's inactive is against the EULA? The answer to this should be "yes" since that's explicitly written on the dev blog.
Of course its yes.

Lucas Kell wrote:
So why then would you think it's not against the EULA to place your active client over your inactive client with the inactive clients overview sticking out so you can see it while it's inactive? That create the exact same situation.
Because using the ingame graphics options (that are available to everyone) is always going to be ok. Why would you think it isn't?

Lucas Kell wrote:
Further, since CCP will be banning this behaviour based on their logs, not from seeing the clients screen, if one is banned and the other is not, how could the differentiate between the two?

This continues to be the problem with CCPs clarification of their EULA, all they do is make people feel less sure about what is actually allowed. We don't really care how they decide they want the rules, we just want them to be understandable and fairly enforced so we know where we stand.


As for CCP's detection methods. Only CCP knows what they are and what they look for. Take it up with them.

The reason people feel less secure about what is allowed is they believe what posters like you say things like windowed mode is no longer allowed.
Lucas Kell wrote:
Alhira Katserna wrote:
So what about people who have multiple accounts but only 1 monitor? For example a 3x miner and 1x Orca setup where each window is sized to around 1600x900 and arrange so that in each corner shows a part of one client to easier click on them than using the windows preview. Will they have to fear to get banned because of this behaviour? Or the pvper who has set 2 accounts on one monitor (1 scout and 1 pvper) and is using this to show the Overview on the scout during still being active on his pvp toon? Will he also have to fear to get banned?
Yep, full screen only.
If people would stop trolling the player base things would be a lot clearer.


User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#182 - 2016-02-24 13:32:58 UTC
Does anyone have any legacy copies of the EULA? Is someone able to tell me when CCP snuck this little doozy in?

Quote:
D. MONITORING

You agree that CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware solely for the purpose of establishing whether in playing the Game and accessing the System you are using software created or approved by CCP, or whether you are using unauthorized software created by you or a third party in contravention of Section 6.


That's pretty game over material right there. Even having unused multi-display software installed could get you nailed. Thankfully there are some old Samsung monitors that support adjustable picture in picture so there are hardware options out there for those with the wallet to support them.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#183 - 2016-02-24 13:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Of course its yes.
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Because using the ingame graphics options (that are available to everyone) is always going to be ok. Why would you think it isn't?
So what's the difference? YTou're not using in game graphics methods to overlay the windows, you ware using your operating systems window management system. What is the difference between using a window management program like ISBoxer to show the two overviews on the same screen and dragging the windows to accomplish the exact same thing. Either way, you can still gain the advantage of seeing the overview on the inactive window.

Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
As for CCP's detection methods. Only CCP knows what they are and what they look for. Take it up with them.
Yeah, that's kind what we were doing when you decided to leap in telling people how simple it is.

Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
The reason people feel less secure about what is allowed is they believe what posters like you say things like windowed mode is no longer allowed.
And according to the blog, in many cases it isn't. Windowed mode is allowed as long as you can't see any part of any inactive EVE windows.

Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
If people would stop trolling the player base things would be a lot clearer.
We're not trolling, we're simply point out the flaws in having insanely fuzzy rules.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#184 - 2016-02-24 13:40:59 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
They give you an advantage over people not using them, and so according to this dev blog are against the rules. Before you claim they don't give you an advantage, consider why you use them. EVE-O preview specifically gives you the same ability to see inactive clients, so that will definitely be a breach.
You need to re-read the devblog/EULA/ToS again.

I don't break the EULA with any 3rd-party program I use. Could some of the programs I use, be used to break the EULA? Yes. But the programs themselves do not. Which is why what programs I or anyone else uses doesn't matter.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Mail Lite
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2016-02-24 13:49:38 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Mail Lite wrote:
Just wanted to check with you about 'Pirates Little Helper'.

It is a programme were you CTRL-A CTRL+C in local and it brings it up out of game, you get little icons which show what militia they are in, whether they are known to be link toons or whether they USE link toons. It also shows how many of each corp/alliance or in local without trolling though them.

It gives you instant access to their KB, their last KB activity and what their 3 favourite ships are. It also gives the average number of pilots on all of their killmails (good for identifying gangs/bait)

Can you confirm this is something that is ok to use?


Pirate's Little Helper doesn't interface at all with Eve. It doesn't overlay the client, modify the client or interact with the client.

It takes information from the Windows clipboard (Ctrl-C put it there) and submits HTML queries to access the rest of its information.

You have nothing to worry about with PLH as far as I know. CCP couldn't ban it's use any more than they could ban the use of spreadsheet programs for industry calculations.


I agree with your outlook on PLH however CCP put this little gem in the dev post '“We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. "

Otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players... This little catch all statement is the issue.

While all the info is out there if you want to look it up, PLH brings it all together and put it at the tips of your fingers. I can instantly look to see who can be working with who (alliance/corps/militia) who is a link pilot, who is a carebear, who is a pirate, their 3 favourite ships and direct access to their KB.

So yea, it doesn't interact directly with the client, but it does, in some peoples minds I am sure, give an unfair advantage.

Knowledge is power.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#186 - 2016-02-24 13:55:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So what's the difference? YTou're not using in game graphics methods to overlay the windows, you ware using your operating systems window management system. What is the difference between using a window management program like ISBoxer to show the two overviews on the same screen and dragging the windows to accomplish the exact same thing. Either way, you can still gain the advantage of seeing the overview on the inactive window.
. Read the devblog it tells you that using overlays to place elements of one client on to another is breaking the EULA. Having 2 clients in windowed mode is just that, having multiple clients open is ok.


Lucas Kell wrote:
Yeah, that's kind what we were doing when you decided to leap in telling people how simple it is.
It is simple. Its would be even simpler if people stopped trolling with silly examples.

Lucas Kell wrote:
And according to the blog, in many cases it isn't. Windowed mode is allowed as long as you can't see any part of any inactive EVE windows.
No, its doesn't say that. Read it again properly.

Lucas Kell wrote:
We're not trolling, we're simply point out the flaws in having insanely fuzzy rules.
Stop trolling windowed mode is not going to get you banned.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#187 - 2016-02-24 13:56:47 UTC
Mail Lite wrote:
however CCP put this little gem in the dev post '“We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. "

Otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players... This little catch all statement is the issue.

No, the catch all is the point. It catches all.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#188 - 2016-02-24 14:06:06 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
They give you an advantage over people not using them, and so according to this dev blog are against the rules. Before you claim they don't give you an advantage, consider why you use them. EVE-O preview specifically gives you the same ability to see inactive clients, so that will definitely be a breach.
You need to re-read the devblog/EULA/ToS again.

I don't break the EULA with any 3rd-party program I use. Could some of the programs I use, be used to break the EULA? Yes. But the programs themselves do not. Which is why what programs I or anyone else uses doesn't matter.
So are you saying your use of EVE-O preview doesn't give you an advantage over trying to do exactly the same without eve-o preview, or let you see what is going on on your inactive clients? I can already tell you it does both, and by that alone you're breaking the EULA by using it.

Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Read the devblog it tells you that using overlays to place elements of one client on to another is breaking the EULA. Having 2 clients in windowed mode is just that, having multiple clients open is ok.
Read it yourself. Specifically, read why it's banned, i,.e. the behaviour they are targeting rather than their example method of achieving that behvavior. They say it is banned as it "would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows". That is exactly what eve-o preview and tiling windows behind each other allows you to do.

Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
No, its doesn't say that. Read it again properly.
It in fact does.

I'm going to simply ignore accusations of trolling, since it's clear those are non-constructive attacks, nothing more. Stop flailing your arms for a minute and read the dev blog.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Niraia
Starcakes
Cynosural Field Theory.
#189 - 2016-02-24 14:25:56 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
They say it is banned as it "would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows". That is exactly what eve-o preview and tiling windows behind each other allows you to do.


So does having more than one monitor, or having more than one client on one monitor. I've reported your post for trolling, because I don't believe you're this special.

♥
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#190 - 2016-02-24 14:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Max Trix
Thread reopened. I have removed some off topic post, rants, two quitting post (Those belong in OOPE), and those quoting them.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
#191 - 2016-02-24 15:40:56 UTC
ISD Max Trix wrote:
Thread reopened. I have removed some off topic post, rants, two quoting post, and those quoting them.



Thanks for cleaning it up and getting it reopened so quickly!
woooooooooooo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2016-02-24 15:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: woooooooooooo
anyway, i have few questions about this dev-blog.
Quote:
"We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules."

1. overlay that pull information from another client is considered to be different ISBoxer without broadcasting? I knew ISBoxer without Broad casting is allowed at this time, and ISB can still pull information from another eve client, and i understand ISB is still allowed atm.
2. then, is ISBoxer(or MultiBoxing softwares) can be completely banned from eve online?
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#193 - 2016-02-24 15:47:03 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
[So are you saying your use of EVE-O preview doesn't give you an advantage over trying to do exactly the same without eve-o preview, or let you see what is going on on your inactive clients? I can already tell you it does both, and by that alone you're breaking the EULA by using it.
No, it doesn't. I can make the exact same setup without Eve-preview using the games windowed mode. The reason I don't is because it would mean having to set it all up manually everytime. You keep going on about advantage when that is not what the devblog/EULA/Tos says. Read it properly.

You do realise that all the talk in the devblog regarding overlays containing elements of one client being placed on top of another client is CCP clarifying that those dashboard setups you were arguing for in the 'Multiboxing and input automation' thread in GD are not allowed.

Sorry Lucas, I can't make you read the devblog/EULA/ToS and keep all the words in the correct order. If you want to go on thinking that playing Eve in windowed mode means you are breaking the EULA thats your business.

I will continue to try and help those people who genuinely require help and ignore those who are only interested in scaremongering and rumour spreading.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Lena Arzi
Sarmatia
#194 - 2016-02-24 15:47:52 UTC
By the way, the business clause should have an explicit exemption of ad-supported or donation-supported streaming per https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/monetization-of-videos-and-streaming-policy/

In some legislations when the income you have to declare with the tax office is above certain threshold, it must be associated with a legal entity (a business), even if the streamer is self employed. I know it's a technicality and in some situations it's a load of BS, but hey we don't want to unintentionally ban people promoting this game, do we?
Catt Stevens
Karusaka Family
#195 - 2016-02-24 15:53:10 UTC
You know with all the ranting about what is and is not allowed a simple statement from CCP could clear ALL THIS UP:

CCP just say -> 'ANY SOFTWARE THAT IS NOT OFFICIAL INCLUDED IN THE CLIENT OR NEEDED TO RUN THE CLIENT NATIVELY, THAT INTERACTS WITH THE CLIENT IN ANY WAY IS NOT ALLOWED, UNLESS IT IS AN OFFICIAL PART OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM OF THE COMPUTER THAT RUNS THE CLIENT. USING SUCH SOFTWARE WILL RESULT IN A BAN'

Pretty simple way of putting a long and lengthy dev blog into less than 54 words.
Daugan
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#196 - 2016-02-24 15:55:48 UTC
Or maybe CCP could realize they need to incorporate elements of 3rd party software, that VASTLY out classes their own offerings for client management.
Ecrir Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2016-02-24 15:56:05 UTC
Suede wrote:
Altrue wrote:
"Let us start with everybody’s favorite reading material, the EULA" hehehe Big smile made me laugh.

Interesting devblog, albeit a bit light on the announcements, but the information there is indeed highly valuable.


made me laugh more as you notice CCP post this dev blog just after SP trading came in. I bet CCP have notice Players are gold farm SP

CCP make problems for them Self when they are going more down to Pay to Win Model.

Bad road to go down Pay To Win

To why CCP not listen to it player base in regards to SP trading we will never know.


Exactly. The skill extractors/injectors are a huge invite for hackers. I can only imagine that their plans include hacking accounts, extracting all skills and selling them off. The question is, can CCP track where those injectors are traded to. If they can't, it's a huge fail.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#198 - 2016-02-24 16:00:17 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future.


Why this Amnesty option CCP Games, so soon after the Company monetization option for "skill trading " Question

Regards, a Freelancer

ps: new RMT initiative: come clean, receive Amnesty

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#199 - 2016-02-24 16:02:51 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
No, it doesn't. I can make the exact same setup without Eve-preview using the games windowed mode. The reason I don't is because it would mean having to set it all up manually everytime. You keep going on about advantage when that is not what the devblog/EULA/Tos says. Read it properly.
Care to provide a screenshot of your layout? EVE clients are limited on how small they can be made, so I fail to believe you're not using eve O preview to size them down below what the client allows you to use. Also, since players not using eve-o preview would have to set up their screens every time, that in itself is an advantage.

Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
You do realise that all the talk in the devblog regarding overlays containing elements of one client being placed on top of another client is CCP clarifying that those dashboard setups you were arguing for in the 'Multiboxing and input automation' thread in GD are not allowed.
I was never arguing for those, I was arguing for clarity in the same way I am now. If I multibox I use eve-o preview and I rarely multibox. I'd be quite content with CCP banning all forms of client layout tool if it helps them clarify the rules. Also, the dashboard setup your are talking about doesn't involve placing elements of one client over another, it involves placing elements of a client over a blank space in the same way eve-o preview layers the aero preview images over each other. I guarantee you I could achieve a similar layout using eve-o preview without chopping up any clients simply using a specific layering order.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#200 - 2016-02-24 16:06:08 UTC
Catt Stevens wrote:
You know with all the ranting about what is and is not allowed a simple statement from CCP could clear ALL THIS UP:

CCP just say -> 'ANY SOFTWARE THAT IS NOT OFFICIAL INCLUDED IN THE CLIENT OR NEEDED TO RUN THE CLIENT NATIVELY, THAT INTERACTS WITH THE CLIENT IN ANY WAY IS NOT ALLOWED, UNLESS IT IS AN OFFICIAL PART OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM OF THE COMPUTER THAT RUNS THE CLIENT. USING SUCH SOFTWARE WILL RESULT IN A BAN'

Pretty simple way of putting a long and lengthy dev blog into less than 54 words.
Wouldn't be that simple, since there are Linux distros that natively contain broadcasting within their window manager, which we already know is against the EULA. Not everyone runs windows.

Perhaps it would be simpler if CCP stopped trying to micromanage how people play the game and instead worked on making sure their game mechanics were complex enough to make multiboxing difficult. Additionally, they could simply disable the client rendering when it's not the active window and add checks to ensure only one EVE window is classed as active at any one time which would eliminate 99% of the issues.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.