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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#261 - 2016-02-21 10:16:29 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Dear CCP Falcon, the defence of cash for skills seems to be predicated on the assumption that the buyer of skills will be a 'noob' and therefore hopeless at pvp.


with my still short relative eve career, i've been fighting veterans, who are not only good at the game but also have alot of SP with lots of alts as well, how is it gonna be differenet now? What?

Just Add Water
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2016-02-21 10:59:01 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Dear CCP Falcon, the defence of cash for skills seems to be predicated on the assumption that the buyer of skills will be a 'noob' and therefore hopeless at pvp.
Seems pretty dishonest to say "the" defense predicates on anything as first, there are several and second I know I've both made a read defenses predicated on opposing observations.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#263 - 2016-02-21 11:20:59 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

That does not mean that armor fitted HM Ravens or ASB Prots are ships that the average person should fly. Such situations are incapable of providing a meaningful comparison. They are unusual and sometimes the unusual works but on the average it does not.

When making a comparison the established method is to equalize both sides of the equation as in my example of Jeff and Joe. The only reliable to find out if Joe or Jeff can pay to win is to make Joe and Jeff average, with average skills and SP. When comparing that in same ships then adding SP to the equation we find it has a dramatic effect on the result proving you can pay to win.

It would be the established method to equalize both sides of the equation, if this was a scientific analysis of something quantifiable. For example the expression levels of gene x normalized to reference genes Y and Z in mutant and wildtype, measured by RT-qPCR for example. But that is not what we are doing here.

You made a very simplified observation about a complex system (Tranquility, which is full of players with in between 1 day to 13 years of SP). You want to use this statement to say something about how EVE will react to the SP injectors. You make the assumption that EVE is full of people with the same sp levels (that is what you do in your example), make a statement(guy with more sp wins) that is always true under these assumptions and then extrapolate to the more complex system tranquility, where the assumptions are not true anymore.

You are making a logical fallacy.

Ironically you make the same mistake CCP did, when they looked at the simple system Vet( not using SP injectors) and newbie using SP injector. In that case it is true that the newbie can catch up. On tranquility the assumption that the veteran is not using SP injector is obviously not true (SO they will first be equal when they have the same skills at the level V hardcap). It does not make CCPs initial statement untrue, it just does not apply to the situation on tranquility. This is the same for your statement.

On average a player will not fight another player with the exact same amount of SP, and then meet him again directly after he boosted SP in the same ship. Your example is too borderline to even consider.

And then lastly competing against a player with more SP is the reality of tranquility and has been since first few years. When I (2 years in EVE) fight another player it does not matter if the SP are bought at once (injector) or bought over many years by subscription or time/grind (PLEX). It is still the same difference and advantage in SP. So I again postulate that in a universe (tranquility), where there already are differences in SP (and will continue to be, even after introduction of injectors), the injectors will not bring along a challenge that is not already there to players who are not using injectors. So the netto change wil not be a big as you estimated. This combined with the size of EVE, relative to players, means you can always go to an area with less competition(If your current area is flodded with SP boosted chars) and earn enough to PLEX and PVP still.

TLDR: you are exaggerating the impact, based on a logical fallacy.

Im making the comparison based on CCPs statement of the average age of an EvE player. Google if you like. So not a logical fallacy.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2016-02-21 11:36:23 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Im making the comparison based on CCPs statement of the average age of an EvE player. Google if you like. So not a logical fallacy.
The logical fallacy has nothing to do with the details of the average character.

The fallacy in part originates from the fact that the "average character" is the result of a function aggregating all characters rather than a statement of where each individual character is.

The second fallacy is isolating 2 character data points specifically chosen to prove a point when there isn't a greater chance of those data points encountering each other more than any of the other points of data which will diverge wildly from that same average.

Third because your comparison fails to account for the non-linearity of skill training and the decisions that create differences in effectiveness with various tools based purely on choice even in a time only training system.

Basically it's a fallacy because for the point of this conversation average is a useless metric since it doesn't accurately identify the way the game plays.
Suparion Knox
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#265 - 2016-02-21 11:50:46 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Only in this forum can a well thought out, logical and well presented (if over long) statement be considered "ranting".

Well, I say about them what I said to my own kids: let them learn the hard way if you don't want to listen.
Some of the same people who (naively) think this is good for the game probably thought that Dominion would be great for small gangs and buffing EHP on mining ships/giving freighters low slots will sure show those damn gankers what's what.....

You can't convince a short sighted person of the truth until after the fact, sad to say.



Well said.
Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
#266 - 2016-02-21 12:21:23 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end.

This is ignorant at best, dishonest at worst.

If applying skillpoints didn't convey an advantage then people wouldn't spend money on them. It's much more than simply "unlocking" an item. Training gunnery/missile skills gives a direct +% damage. It doesn't matter if you are a good pilot or a bad pilot this is an advantage just the same.

Moreover how does buying PI/market/research/industry/mining skills *not* convey an immediate and direct advantage vs someone who does not? That's a rhetorical question of course because buying and applying those stills is by its very definition "pay2win."

All CCP cares about here is money. Claiming any other motivation is a lie. Sure enough selling extractors will fill CCPs bank account with money, but claiming that you haven't turned the game into Pay2Win is laughable.

Rothbard's Casino
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#267 - 2016-02-21 13:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Im making the comparison based on CCPs statement of the average age of an EvE player. Google if you like. So not a logical fallacy.


If you actually read what I wrote, you would know the logical fallacy is you thinking that just because buying SP leads to winning in your highly artificial scenario, it also means buying SP woulld lead to winning on tranquility. You wrote(just to refresh):
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Ill give an example so we dont go back and forth arguing about inconsistencies - Joe and Jeff are average players. theyre in a system in null fighting. they engage and after an average fight using average skills Joe beats Jeff by a few HP. Jeff docks injects 10,000,000 SP he bought maxing cap, HP, and other core skills. He undocks and even though an identical fight takes place he has more HP cap etc and wins. Jeff won because he paid to win. simple

The assumption for your above scenario where buying SP would equal winning are:

1)The pilots start with the same amount of SP
2)They fly the same Hull
3)They have the same fittings
4)They are doing a 1 on 1 fight
5)They are not interrupted
6)they have equal player skills

The fallacy you commit is believing that because SP injection is pay2win in your example, it also means that it is pay2win on tranquility where hardly any of your assumptions for your special case scenario are true.

People are trying to tell you that SP injection will not mean too much on tranquility (of course it will have some effect, but not as much as you claim when you say it will be pay2win), as people anyway don't have the same SP to start with, not always solo, don't fly the same ships and fit them alike.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#268 - 2016-02-21 13:52:08 UTC
Edwin Rothbard wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end.

This is ignorant at best, dishonest at worst.

If applying skillpoints didn't convey an advantage then people wouldn't spend money on them. It's much more than simply "unlocking" an item. Training gunnery/missile skills gives a direct +% damage. It doesn't matter if you are a good pilot or a bad pilot this is an advantage just the same.

Moreover how does buying PI/market/research/industry/mining skills *not* convey an immediate and direct advantage vs someone who does not? That's a rhetorical question of course because buying and applying those stills is by its very definition "pay2win."

All CCP cares about here is money. Claiming any other motivation is a lie. Sure enough selling extractors will fill CCPs bank account with money, but claiming that you haven't turned the game into Pay2Win is laughable.

Want to know what P2W is? Pay me 1B ISK and I will teach you how to win EVE.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#269 - 2016-02-21 15:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
CCP Falcon wrote:
[quote=Demolishar]A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


If this is true, then it was equally true 3 years ago, 5 years ago and 10 years ago. It was true every time someone posted on F+I or GD (which they did with some regularity), using your exact same argument, to suggest buying skillpoints or paying to speed up training in some way, yet every time CCP ignored these requests or dismissed them out of hand, over and over and over again. Why was that?
Darkblad
Doomheim
#270 - 2016-02-21 16:30:08 UTC
Moving existing skillpoints on the same/to another character? Proposed by players before?

Just
a few
of those
(only three of the older threads on this forum, no oldforums.eo)

And one now in game

NPE-ISD-Übersetzt!
Zurin Arctus
Trauma Ward
#271 - 2016-02-21 22:02:06 UTC
Real talk here. CCP is owned by venture capital firms. EVE is a money cow to these people, and the desires of the players - even those of the devs - take a backseat of the game's ability to turn the kind of profit that Novator and GCP want to see.

Frankly, we should be happy that the devs are trying to keep the cash store stuff from becoming pay-to-win. None of what they've introduced thus impinges upon gameplay very much, beyond giving rookies the ability to fly shiny ships.
Dr Caymus
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
#272 - 2016-02-21 22:37:12 UTC
Zurin Arctus wrote:
Real talk here. CCP is owned by venture capital firms. EVE is a money cow to these people, and the desires of the players - even those of the devs - take a backseat of the game's ability to turn the kind of profit that Novator and GCP want to see.

Frankly, we should be happy that the devs are trying to keep the cash store stuff from becoming pay-to-win. None of what they've introduced thus impinges upon gameplay very much, beyond giving rookies the ability to fly shiny ships.

Good points, Zurin. Having been through an LBO with my former firm and a private equity firm whose name I won't mention, but whose "initials" are BX, I know first-hand what the experience can be like. It can be a good one if you know your business and you're at the top of your game, but it's a huge challenge to say the least. If the VCs are any good, they have an analyst or two drilling pretty deep into CCP's operations; heck, maybe even reading these forums, maybe even playing the game a bit.

So kudos to the devs for walking the line between delivering to their investors and delivering to their subscribers.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2016-02-22 01:30:29 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Im making the comparison based on CCPs statement of the average age of an EvE player. Google if you like. So not a logical fallacy.


If you actually read what I wrote, you would know the logical fallacy is you thinking that just because buying SP leads to winning in your highly artificial scenario, it also means buying SP woulld lead to winning on tranquility. You wrote(just to refresh):
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Ill give an example so we dont go back and forth arguing about inconsistencies - Joe and Jeff are average players. theyre in a system in null fighting. they engage and after an average fight using average skills Joe beats Jeff by a few HP. Jeff docks injects 10,000,000 SP he bought maxing cap, HP, and other core skills. He undocks and even though an identical fight takes place he has more HP cap etc and wins. Jeff won because he paid to win. simple

The assumption for your above scenario where buying SP would equal winning are:

1)The pilots start with the same amount of SP
2)They fly the same Hull
3)They have the same fittings
4)They are doing a 1 on 1 fight
5)They are not interrupted
6)they have equal player skills

The fallacy you commit is believing that because SP injection is pay2win in your example, it also means that it is pay2win on tranquility where hardly any of your assumptions for your special case scenario are true.

People are trying to tell you that SP injection will not mean too much on tranquility (of course it will have some effect, but not as much as you claim when you say it will be pay2win), as people anyway don't have the same SP to start with, not always solo, don't fly the same ships and fit them alike.

Since the buying of skillpoints is an individual issue its dishonest to attempt to compare it in a general manner by using examples where multiple pilots are involved. To compare you must compare the way I am comparing - small scale using averages and minimal variables. If on an individual level it equates as pay to win, which it does then given a small gang, medium gang, large gang and fleet are all composed of infividual pilots then it must also equat to pay to win in those situations.

Buying skillpoints is paying to win. End of story.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#274 - 2016-02-22 01:58:51 UTC
Zurin Arctus wrote:
Real talk here. CCP is owned by venture capital firms. EVE is a money cow to these people, and the desires of the players - even those of the devs - take a backseat of the game's ability to turn the kind of profit that Novator and GCP want to see.

Frankly, we should be happy that the devs are trying to keep the cash store stuff from becoming pay-to-win. None of what they've introduced thus impinges upon gameplay very much, beyond giving rookies the ability to fly shiny ships.


These investors had better take a good look at how much talent we have floating around the community:
Artists. We've all seen the propaganda pics floating around. Most of it isn't quite as good as the stuff CCP has done, but it's good enough to get the point across.
Programmers-people who write tools, and some who have poked around in more complicated things.
Designers. FANDI is full of ideas, some of which are backed up with very good logic and make very good mechanisms.
Management-the people who run these big corporations and get everyone to work together for... something.
And marketing. Most of us know how to use social media. Some of us know how to use it well.

It's every kind of talent you'd need to make and market another one of these, and quite possibly enough to make it happen.
And a few people who probably have the money to back such a crazy venture.

Most communities will have forums full of "Your game sucks for reasons, leaving." This one can probably leave and make a new one if CCP's hand is forced in the wrong direction.

A signature :o
blue dehazon
Stonegard Arrows
#275 - 2016-02-22 02:04:15 UTC
Game ruined for vets sins ther will be more people matching theyr SP,when most wets have stated for years that Sp have littel to do with pvp,only knowledge conts,shud think they be happy then more unskilled jusy targets !.And i fail to se way vets will complain about more players in the game iven if they stay for a shorther time on avrage,thers only 1 way to get more people to staye for a loonger time and thats new gamers.You have 1 valid point as i see it and that is you need more than 1 accont to start with if you want som progres in the game any time sun,That is if you dont buye plex and sell it for isk,But thats not interly CCP's fault,its nessesery sins so manny players have bougth multipel accounts all redy,if not for that the marked for mats been waye higher and so your ships to,But i think ther shud be a limit to howe many acconts ther shud be allowed to be online at the same time from the same sub,but it will probebly not be hard to get around shutch limetations.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#276 - 2016-02-22 02:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
blue dehazon wrote:
Game ruined for vets sins ther will be more people matching theyr SP,when most wets have stated for years that Sp have littel to do with pvp,only knowledge conts,shud think they be happy then more unskilled jusy targets !.And i fail to se way vets will complain about more players in the game iven if they stay for a shorther time on avrage,thers only 1 way to get more people to staye for a loonger time and thats new gamers.You have 1 valid point as i see it and that is you need more than 1 accont to start with if you want som progres in the game any time sun,That is if you dont buye plex and sell it for isk,But thats not interly CCP's fault,its nessesery sins so manny players have bougth multipel accounts all redy,if not for that the marked for mats been waye higher and so your ships to,But i think ther shud be a limit to howe many acconts ther shud be allowed to be online at the same time from the same sub,but it will probebly not be hard to get around shutch limetations.
After browser autospell check:

Game ruined for vets sins there will be more people matching their SP,when most wets have stated for years that Sp have little to do with pvp,only knowledge counts,should think they be happy then more unskilled jusy targets !.And i fail to see way vets will complain about more players in the game even if they stay for a shorter time on average,thers only 1 way to get more people to stay for a longer time and that's new gamers.You have 1 valid point as i see it and that is you need more than 1 account to start with if you want some progress in the game any time sun,That is if you don't buy plex and sell it for isk,But that's not entirely CCP's fault,its necessary sins so many players have bought multiple accounts all ready,if not for that the marked for mats been way higher and so your ships to,But i think there should be a limit to how many accounts there should be allowed to be online at the same time from the same sub,but it will probably not be hard to get around such limitations.

Quickie translation::

Why do vets say the game is ruined for them with more people matching their SP? Most vets have stated for years that SP has little to do with pvp Only knowledge counts,

You'd think they would be happy with more unskilled juicy targets. Also, I fail to see why vets will complain about more players in the game even if they stay for a shorter time on average, There's only one way to get more people to stay for a longer time and that's to get new people interested in the game.

You have one valid point as I see it and that is you need more than one account to start with if you want some progress in the game any time soon. That is if you don't buy PLEX and sell it for iISK. But that's not entirely CCP's fault. It's necessary since so many players have bought multiple accounts already. If not for that, the market for materials would have been way higher and so your ships as well. But I think there should be a limit to how many accounts there should be allowed to be online at the same time from the same sub,but it will probably not be hard to get around such limitations.



I accept ISK donations for any forum translations I perform in the public interest, by the way.

Mr Epeen Cool
MidnightWyvern
Fukamichi Corporation
SAYR Galactic
#277 - 2016-02-22 04:26:50 UTC
stg slate wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


I share a similar sentiment, as a 9ish year player(across various toons/account)

As do I, at 7 years and with two characters.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#278 - 2016-02-22 05:14:20 UTC
MidnightWyvern wrote:
stg slate wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


I share a similar sentiment, as a 9ish year player(across various toons/account)

As do I, at 7 years and with two characters.

Pro Tip for vets who dont understand skillpoints - download EFT and check how skillpoints affect EHP, cap usage, cap totals, range tracking speed damage output, damage mitigation................ lots of dots because the list is huge, this apart from the ability to pilot a ship and fit mods :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2016-02-22 07:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Since the buying of skillpoints is an individual issue its dishonest to attempt to compare it in a general manner by using examples where multiple pilots are involved. To compare you must compare the way I am comparing - small scale using averages and minimal variables. If on an individual level it equates as pay to win, which it does then given a small gang, medium gang, large gang and fleet are all composed of infividual pilots then it must also equat to pay to win in those situations.

Buying skillpoints is paying to win. End of story.
No, it's dishonest not to compare in a general manner because that's the manner that matters. A character having more SP than another character can be no more "winning" by the rules of the game than any other player with the same SP advantage regardless of the reason.

The small scale not only doesn't matter, it doesn't exist because there are no limit to scale or the players you can encounter at any scale. Further the fact is that characters that deviate from the average are now P2W characters regardless of how they got their SP if we accept average as something of a standard measure.

You genuinely can't even compare individual pilots according to averages due to divergent ages and training decisions. The equality you're trying to create and argue from is a blatant lie.

Quote:
Pro Tip for vets who dont understand skillpoints - download EFT and check how skillpoints affect EHP, cap usage, cap totals, range tracking speed damage output, damage mitigation................ lots of dots because the list is huge, this apart from the ability to pilot a ship and fit mods :)
Pro tip for those caught up in this line of poor logic:

The issue isn't not understanding SP, it's understanding that SP trading isn't the source of SP imbalance and further that those advantages are literally designed to be sought after and used. Maybe you should do that exercise you just suggested yourself, but this time keep in mind that those ranges of performance already existed prior to skill trading.
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#280 - 2016-02-22 07:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Since the buying of skillpoints is an individual issue its dishonest to attempt to compare it in a general manner by using examples where multiple pilots are involved. To compare you must compare the way I am comparing - small scale using averages and minimal variables. If on an individual level it equates as pay to win, which it does then given a small gang, medium gang, large gang and fleet are all composed of infividual pilots then it must also equat to pay to win in those situations.

Buying skillpoints is paying to win. End of story.


Lol, those deductions are at comedic levels. Reminds me of the satire work, Erasmus Montanus, of ludwig Holberg. Especially the famous line "A stone cannot fly. Mother cannot fly. Ergo, Mother is a stone!".

Your deductions are logical fallacies, they really are. You are creating a "win" case, and then saying, that then means this must be true, and this, and this... Even though one level of deductions clearly do not follow te next level. It is almost manipulation what you are doing.. You can play all the "logical" mind games you want. It does not change the fact that your example does not apply to the conditions on tranquility. On tranquility the addition of SP means less than in your example. That is also the reason why most people who play the game, I have met are pretty neutral about the changes.

There is a possibillity you are wrong, as there is I am. But drop the fallacies, if you want to be taken serious. Untill then you are just waisting the time of people discussing with you

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker