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Emergency Shield and Armor Energizers (Bombing protection for subcaps)
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Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#1 - 2016-02-20 17:48:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Currently, BS and BC fleets aren't very viable because off bombing runs. Fortunately CCP decided against cloaking nerfs that would have crippled BlOps fleets. Unfortunately, CCP still hasn't found a good solution to bombing runs. Well... Or so I had thought:

Quote:
Capital Emergency Hull Energizer
When activated, pushes the hull resists to 99% for 20 seconds. However, it burns out after cycling once. This module is a type of Damage Control, so you will have to decide if you want an Emergency Hull Energizer or standard Damage Control.


The above module is really designed to counter DDs for FAXes. What if there were a comparable module for subcaps that would protect against bombing runs?

I present to you the subcapital Emergency Shield/Armor Energizer:
Quote:
When activated, pushes the [Shield | Armor] resists to 99% for 30 seconds against non-targeted damage. Cycle time is 100 seconds. The module takes 60% heat damage every cycle. This module is a type of Damage Control, so you will have to decide if you want an Emergency [Shield | Armor] Energizer or standard Damage Control.


Noted differences from the capital module:

  • The module will have two different versions: One for shield and one for Armor.
  • The module will not burn out after a single cycle. DDs have far longer cycle time than bombs. Repeated bombing runs are more likely to happen then repeated DDs. Therefore the module needs to be available in a short amount of time.
  • However, the module will burn out in two cycles unless you can use nanite paste to repair it. While a module is being repaired it can't be activated. You have a choice: Repair or be able to active at a moment's notice. (You can stop the repairs to a module. That takes some time. Can you stop repairs in time to activate? Who knows...)
  • The 30 second resist boost time is designed for two things: Give you protection against staggered bombing runs and give you enough time for your fleet to warp to a new position on grid. Warping to a new spot forces the bombers to set up again at the new spot.
  • The module's cycle time should be short enough I can be reactivated against the bombers once they have reloaded, but long enough that there is a chance that a highly skilled bombing group can execute another bombing run before it can be reactivated. Max skilled bomber can reactivate in 67.5 seconds. So at 100 second cycle time there is (100 - 67.5 max bomber reactivation time - 10 second bomb travel time) 22.5 second window for the bombers to launch their new attack.


Again, all numbers are up for discussion so really focus on them. Of course CCP will balance the module to what they think is realistic. Thoughts?

edit: added non-targeted damage to prevent abuse by solo ASB ships.
SurrenderMonkey
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-02-20 18:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
30 seconds of near-invulnerability is WAY too general-purpose for the stated goal of countering bombing runs.

I feel like this would do stupid things to some dual-ASB fits.

I saw someone suggest the other day that defender missiles should be made into an anti-bomb weapon. That seems way more reasonable and with far fewer unintended consequences.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#3 - 2016-02-20 18:18:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
30 seconds of near-invulnerability is WAY too general-purpose for the stated goal of countering bombing runs.

I feel like this would do stupid things to some dual-ASB fits.

I saw someone suggest the other day that defender missiles should be made into an anti-bomb weapon. That seems way more reasonable and with far fewer unintended consequences.

I can understand that. Perhaps shifting it to 30 seconds of 99% resists against non-targeted damage?

Defender missiles won't work because there isn't any counter play. The defender missile will always win. With this module there are choices, consequences, and counter play.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#4 - 2016-02-20 18:33:30 UTC
Lol he is joking right? You want to avoid bombs either don't ball up or snuggle up close to whom ever you are shooting

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-02-20 18:37:13 UTC
Make it the exact same as the emergency DCU. 20 seconds, one use before burnout and only Shield armor or DCU. You can still fit other resist mods but no DCU. This means 99% for 20 seconds once per fight for most small/medium fleets, maybe a bit more often for larger fleet fights so long as they chill for 60 seconds to allow for the refit. That or time enough for nanite paste to repair it.

There's really no reason to only give this for hull damage. At least not that i can initially see.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#6 - 2016-02-20 18:43:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Lyra Gerie wrote:
Make it the exact same as the emergency DCU. 20 seconds, one use before burnout and only Shield armor or DCU. You can still fit other resist mods but no DCU. This means 99% for 20 seconds once per fight for most small/medium fleets, maybe a bit more often for larger fleet fights so long as they chill for 60 seconds to allow for the refit. That or time enough for nanite paste to repair it.

There's really no reason to only give this for hull damage. At least not that i can initially see.

Once per fight won't be enough. A bomber can reload and launch another bomb in 67.5 seconds. When we are talking about SOV fleet fights that stretch into 30, 45, 60 minutes and beyond a single activation simply won't be enough. You aren't going to stop fighting for 60 seconds in the middle of a fight to refit. A bomber will be 7.5 seconds away from being reloaded by then. Are you going to stop fighting again in 20 seconds after you have been bombed again to refit? Of course you aren't. This module simply will not work if it burns out after a single activation.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#7 - 2016-02-20 19:22:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Aliventi wrote:

Once per fight won't be enough. A bomber can reload and launch another bomb in 67.5 seconds. When we are talking about SOV fleet fights that stretch into 30, 45, 60 minutes and beyond a single activation simply won't be enough. You aren't going to stop fighting for 60 seconds in the middle of a fight to refit. A bomber will be 7.5 seconds away from being reloaded by then. Are you going to stop fighting again in 20 seconds after you have been bombed again to refit? Of course you aren't. This module simply will not work if it burns out after a single activation.


Keep in mind. As soon as you see bombs, you have 12 seconds to respond. Realistically lets say you activated the module after seeing the bombs for 2 seconds. So now the module will be turned off for 17.5 seconds before the next bombing run. With max nanite skills, how long will it take to repair this module even 21%. Because if you can repair it 21%, you can use the module for a 2nd time and activate it for a second bombing run without it burning out. This means that from 1 squad of bombers, they would need to do 3 bombing runs to burn out the module.

Another idea of how this module could work, that would punish poor timing better, would be something along the lines of you gain 10% shield or armor every second for 6 seconds, and then lose 10% shield or armor every second for 6 seconds after that.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#8 - 2016-02-20 20:32:27 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Aliventi wrote:

Once per fight won't be enough. A bomber can reload and launch another bomb in 67.5 seconds. When we are talking about SOV fleet fights that stretch into 30, 45, 60 minutes and beyond a single activation simply won't be enough. You aren't going to stop fighting for 60 seconds in the middle of a fight to refit. A bomber will be 7.5 seconds away from being reloaded by then. Are you going to stop fighting again in 20 seconds after you have been bombed again to refit? Of course you aren't. This module simply will not work if it burns out after a single activation.


Keep in mind. As soon as you see bombs, you have 12 seconds to respond. Realistically lets say you activated the module after seeing the bombs for 2 seconds. So now the module will be turned off for 17.5 seconds before the next bombing run. With max nanite skills, how long will it take to repair this module even 21%. Because if you can repair it 21%, you can use the module for a 2nd time and activate it for a second bombing run without it burning out. This means that from 1 squad of bombers, they would need to do 3 bombing runs to burn out the module.

Another idea of how this module could work, that would punish poor timing better, would be something along the lines of you gain 10% shield or armor every second for 6 seconds, and then lose 10% shield or armor every second for 6 seconds after that.

The 60% damage to the module is a placeholder. Maybe 55.5% is the best number to achieve two cycles before burn out while making it possible to repair it for more uses. Maybe it should be 45% so it can cycle for 3 cycles before it burns out. That would really be up to players/CCP to figure out. I used 60% for ease of math and to make the situation a bit more clear. I agree that it should be possible to repair so you can get more cycles out of it.

The 10%/sec for 6 seconds might work, but I really don't want this module to interfere with actual fleet PvP. If you give a ship 60% more shields or armor you will really impact the ability for the enemy fleet to kill the ship. I want this to be an option to counter bombs with as few impacts to other things as possible.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-02-20 20:46:59 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Lyra Gerie wrote:
Make it the exact same as the emergency DCU. 20 seconds, one use before burnout and only Shield armor or DCU. You can still fit other resist mods but no DCU. This means 99% for 20 seconds once per fight for most small/medium fleets, maybe a bit more often for larger fleet fights so long as they chill for 60 seconds to allow for the refit. That or time enough for nanite paste to repair it.

There's really no reason to only give this for hull damage. At least not that i can initially see.

Once per fight won't be enough. A bomber can reload and launch another bomb in 67.5 seconds. When we are talking about SOV fleet fights that stretch into 30, 45, 60 minutes and beyond a single activation simply won't be enough. You aren't going to stop fighting for 60 seconds in the middle of a fight to refit. A bomber will be 7.5 seconds away from being reloaded by then. Are you going to stop fighting again in 20 seconds after you have been bombed again to refit? Of course you aren't. This module simply will not work if it burns out after a single activation.


Denying a bombing run by doing nothing but activating a module should be something that can only be done once per battle. Otherwise stay aligned and be ready for another attack. It usually takes longer than reload time to line up for another bombing run unless the leg work has already been done for you and even then it usually takes longer. No one should be completely risk free fighting anything even bombers. This gives you one good shot at dodging their damage which is more than enough. Anything more and you remove the reason for bombers to exist not to mention unbalancing just about everything else.

Given that you can repair the item with nanite paste this means you could theoretically get a second or third use in when in larger battles, or you could stop your assault for 60 seconds, refit a new one, then go back to the battlefield.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#10 - 2016-02-20 20:56:05 UTC
Lyra Gerie wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Lyra Gerie wrote:
Make it the exact same as the emergency DCU. 20 seconds, one use before burnout and only Shield armor or DCU. You can still fit other resist mods but no DCU. This means 99% for 20 seconds once per fight for most small/medium fleets, maybe a bit more often for larger fleet fights so long as they chill for 60 seconds to allow for the refit. That or time enough for nanite paste to repair it.

There's really no reason to only give this for hull damage. At least not that i can initially see.

Once per fight won't be enough. A bomber can reload and launch another bomb in 67.5 seconds. When we are talking about SOV fleet fights that stretch into 30, 45, 60 minutes and beyond a single activation simply won't be enough. You aren't going to stop fighting for 60 seconds in the middle of a fight to refit. A bomber will be 7.5 seconds away from being reloaded by then. Are you going to stop fighting again in 20 seconds after you have been bombed again to refit? Of course you aren't. This module simply will not work if it burns out after a single activation.

Denying a bombing run by doing nothing but activating a module should be something that can only be done once per battle. Otherwise stay aligned and be ready for another attack. It usually takes longer than reload time to line up for another bombing run unless the leg work has already been done for you and even then it usually takes longer. No one should be completely risk free fighting anything even bombers. This gives you one good shot at dodging their damage which is more than enough. Anything more and you remove the reason for bombers to exist not to mention unbalancing just about everything else.

Given that you can repair the item with nanite paste this means you could theoretically get a second or third use in when in larger battles, or you could stop your assault for 60 seconds, refit a new one, then go back to the battlefield.

It absolutely should be something that can be done more than once. If bombers were to launch bombs every 5 minutes, or 10 minutes I would be in favor of the module burning out. At the rate bombers can do another bombing run isn't conducive to removing your entire fleet from the fight for 60 seconds. It would be no better than what we have now. This module would be useless and no one will fly BS fleets.

If you were to understand the module entirely there is zero intent to make anyone 100% immune to bombs. Part of what balances this module is that the cycle time should be long enough that a well put together group of bombers have a small window to execute another bombing run before the modules cycle ends. At some point the bombing runs will overwhelm the module to the point at which it eventually burns out. It might take 3-4 bombing runs, but you will get there. There is still a place for bombers, but no longer will BS be worthless to fly in a fleet because of bombers.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2016-02-20 21:13:00 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
30 seconds of near-invulnerability is WAY too general-purpose for the stated goal of countering bombing runs.

I feel like this would do stupid things to some dual-ASB fits.

I saw someone suggest the other day that defender missiles should be made into an anti-bomb weapon. That seems way more reasonable and with far fewer unintended consequences.


Plus the tears from everyone who sucked out defender missiles!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2016-02-20 21:15:08 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
30 seconds of near-invulnerability is WAY too general-purpose for the stated goal of countering bombing runs.

I feel like this would do stupid things to some dual-ASB fits.

I saw someone suggest the other day that defender missiles should be made into an anti-bomb weapon. That seems way more reasonable and with far fewer unintended consequences.

I can understand that. Perhaps shifting it to 30 seconds of 99% resists against non-targeted damage?

Defender missiles won't work because there isn't any counter play. The defender missile will always win. With this module there are choices, consequences, and counter play.


Yes and no...first you have to have them fit which is a hi slot module meaning you'll gimp your DPS do the degree you fit N defender missile launchers. Even if you designate some ships as picket ships to fit defender missiles is will take people out of DPS or logistics as well. So there is a trade off to be had hear. Not everything in the game must have a direct counter.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#13 - 2016-02-20 21:23:17 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not everything in the game must have a direct counter.

Proposes direct counter to bombs.

This thread isn't to talk about defender missiles.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2016-02-20 21:39:37 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not everything in the game must have a direct counter.

Proposes direct counter to bombs.

This thread isn't to talk about defender missiles.


Okay, but your idea is way to OP...which was your complaint about the defender missiles approach. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#15 - 2016-02-20 21:46:54 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not everything in the game must have a direct counter.

Proposes direct counter to bombs.

This thread isn't to talk about defender missiles.


Okay, but your idea is way to OP...which was your complaint about the defender missiles approach. Roll

Then explain how it is OP.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2016-02-20 22:13:37 UTC
You would be better sticking with structure resists and making them between 60-80% bonus. Enough to bully though the damage, but your tank is gone and still leaves you vulnerable if you get primaried afterward. And of course not having such high resists means that successive bombing runs on the same location will blow you to bits.
SurrenderMonkey
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2016-02-20 22:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Aliventi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not everything in the game must have a direct counter.

Proposes direct counter to bombs.

This thread isn't to talk about defender missiles.


Okay, but your idea is way to OP...which was your complaint about the defender missiles approach. Roll

Then explain how it is OP.



It's... 30 seconds of nigh-immunity to damage. That's OP as **** at a subcap level.

Why would you ever NOT put this on a ship that could fit it? Especially given that a good chunk of the DC hull resist bonus is being made into an innate stat on all ships.

About the only time you might refrain from using it would be in sizeable fleets with logistics. But for solo or small gang? It's a no brainer.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#18 - 2016-02-20 22:22:51 UTC
Rowells wrote:
You would be better sticking with structure resists and making them between 60-80% bonus. Enough to bully though the damage, but your tank is gone and still leaves you vulnerable if you get primaried afterward. And of course not having such high resists means that successive bombing runs on the same location will blow you to bits.

By forcing it to only affect hull resists you are making the module ineffective. What good would a anti-bomb module be if it leaves ships with hull left only to die to their adversay fleet's DPS? It wouldn't. That's why shield and armor resists against non-targeted damage would be the perfect counter.

SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Then explain how it is OP.



It's... 30 seconds of nigh-immunity to damage. That's OP as **** at a subcap level.

Why would you ever NOT put this on a ship that could fit it? Especially given that a good chunk of the DC hull resist bonus is being made into an innate stat on all ships.

About the only time you might refrain from using it would be in sizeable fleets with logistics. But for solo or small gang? It's a no brainer.

It's 30 seconds of non-targeted damage. Which means it won't stop you from taking targeted damage by enemy ships. hardly OP at all. You wouldn't put it on a ship you weren't expecting to be bombed.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#19 - 2016-02-20 22:26:00 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
I agree that it should be possible to repair so you can get more cycles out of it.


I'm not supporting this, I'm only informing you how this would be abused.

Aliventi wrote:


The 10%/sec for 6 seconds might work, but I really don't want this module to interfere with actual fleet PvP. If you give a ship 60% more shields or armor you will really impact the ability for the enemy fleet to kill the ship. I want this to be an option to counter bombs with as few impacts to other things as possible.


Last I checked bombers counter large fleets that are all stacking up on top of each other like a raging garter snake orgy. The only bombing runs that are worth noting is when the bombers are in a fleet. So isn't that actual fleet PVP?

It seems like this module that you propose is a stealth nerf pipe bombing thread as well now since you have changed the OP to be only non targeted damage, and yet it lasts for 30 seconds still. That is the stupidly overpowered portion of the this.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2016-02-20 22:29:18 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Lyra Gerie wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Lyra Gerie wrote:
Make it the exact same as the emergency DCU. 20 seconds, one use before burnout and only Shield armor or DCU. You can still fit other resist mods but no DCU. This means 99% for 20 seconds once per fight for most small/medium fleets, maybe a bit more often for larger fleet fights so long as they chill for 60 seconds to allow for the refit. That or time enough for nanite paste to repair it.

There's really no reason to only give this for hull damage. At least not that i can initially see.

Once per fight won't be enough. A bomber can reload and launch another bomb in 67.5 seconds. When we are talking about SOV fleet fights that stretch into 30, 45, 60 minutes and beyond a single activation simply won't be enough. You aren't going to stop fighting for 60 seconds in the middle of a fight to refit. A bomber will be 7.5 seconds away from being reloaded by then. Are you going to stop fighting again in 20 seconds after you have been bombed again to refit? Of course you aren't. This module simply will not work if it burns out after a single activation.

Denying a bombing run by doing nothing but activating a module should be something that can only be done once per battle. Otherwise stay aligned and be ready for another attack. It usually takes longer than reload time to line up for another bombing run unless the leg work has already been done for you and even then it usually takes longer. No one should be completely risk free fighting anything even bombers. This gives you one good shot at dodging their damage which is more than enough. Anything more and you remove the reason for bombers to exist not to mention unbalancing just about everything else.

Given that you can repair the item with nanite paste this means you could theoretically get a second or third use in when in larger battles, or you could stop your assault for 60 seconds, refit a new one, then go back to the battlefield.

It absolutely should be something that can be done more than once. If bombers were to launch bombs every 5 minutes, or 10 minutes I would be in favor of the module burning out. At the rate bombers can do another bombing run isn't conducive to removing your entire fleet from the fight for 60 seconds. It would be no better than what we have now. This module would be useless and no one will fly BS fleets.

If you were to understand the module entirely there is zero intent to make anyone 100% immune to bombs. Part of what balances this module is that the cycle time should be long enough that a well put together group of bombers have a small window to execute another bombing run before the modules cycle ends. At some point the bombing runs will overwhelm the module to the point at which it eventually burns out. It might take 3-4 bombing runs, but you will get there. There is still a place for bombers, but no longer will BS be worthless to fly in a fleet because of bombers.


I understand the module and what you propose doesn't fix the problem anyways. Even if it had multiple uses you know whats going to happen? 2 bomber waves. One firing, watching you activate your emergency hardeners, then the second one firing shortly after. If you're looking for a solution to bombs there are other things that could work but this isn't one of them. You're focusing too hard on one thing and not noticing how it would mess everything else up. 30 seconds + multiple use +99% resists = OP no matter how you cut it even if you just focus on bombing runs and battleships.

Second this idea has morphed from deflecting bomb damage to making battleship fleets viable. These are two separate ideas. Yes battleships are the most susceptible to bomb damage, but every ship in the game can fit modules meaning this change doesn't just affect battleship survivability in fleets.
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