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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

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Darkblad
Doomheim
#61 - 2016-02-16 22:16:15 UTC
Taking a look at the order of appearance of products on the ccpgames site and drawing conclusions is just tinfoil

I would assume. However, a very intriguing one.

NPE-ISD-Übersetzt!
Avvy
Doomheim
#62 - 2016-02-16 22:18:58 UTC
Grauth Thorner wrote:


Not sure where you got the number 2009 from, but either way, sure there are always corner cases where there is a slight difference. In fact, the biggest difference isn't even mentioned, namely that with skill extractors skillpoints were lost. This means that -all- pilots except the one using the skill extractor, including you, me and the new pilot not spending RL$ for an SP boost, just got a teeny tiny boost in their SP compared to the grand total of all pilots combined.




Which means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2016-02-16 22:22:24 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Reiisha wrote:

My point is that they're neglecting their only moneymaking product and are trying to fund half a dozen other projects with money they either don't have, or don't want to invest back into their primary moneymaker.



How do you know this exactly?

Do you take the minutes at their board meetings?


Jenn aSide and Reiisha collectively know everything there is to know about business, MMOs, and CCP's day-to-day projects.
Reiisha
#64 - 2016-02-16 22:25:29 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Reiisha wrote:

My point is that they're neglecting their only moneymaking product and are trying to fund half a dozen other projects with money they either don't have, or don't want to invest back into their primary moneymaker.



How do you know this exactly?

Do you take the minutes at their board meetings?


Game development is not cheap. What does CCP sell other than EVE at the moment? Valkyrie comes free with the Oculus, so they're completely dependant on a deal no one knows about. Gunjack seems to be developed fully with EVE money. WoD was developed with EVE money (hell, White Wolf was bought with it). Dust was developed with a shady deal from Sony.

EVE is the only product they're actually selling to consumers at the moment (i doubt the Dust cash shop is bringing much, if at all). So where is the money for those investments coming from? In the very best case they're currently earning $$60m a year, which is nothing to be sniffed at. But it doesn't really mesh with what seems to be the current spending of CCP, and even with my untrained eye i can see that EVE is not getting a very big share of that income (Witcher 3 was made for less, to put that in perspective, over 5 years).

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#65 - 2016-02-16 22:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Eugene Kerner wrote:

Not only is it P2W...it is also F2P if the prices settle in.


P2W in a sandbox with no endgame? Okay.

As for F2P. It already has been for years for some of us as individuals. Ever since PLEX was introduced. Not F2P in general, though. If there wasn't an equal number of people buying PLEX for RL cash to sell, there'd be no PLEX to buy with ISK in-game.

Why can't you people get it through your thick skulls that EVE is a closed loop. If a player doesn't produce something, it's not for sale. Whether it's minerals, ships, WH locations, characters, game time, or now SP injectors. Either we produce it, or it doesn't exist. CCP doesn't pull this stuff out of their ass and sell it to us.

Mr Epeen Cool
Avvy
Doomheim
#66 - 2016-02-16 22:38:10 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Reiisha wrote:

My point is that they're neglecting their only moneymaking product and are trying to fund half a dozen other projects with money they either don't have, or don't want to invest back into their primary moneymaker.



How do you know this exactly?

Do you take the minutes at their board meetings?


Game development is not cheap. What does CCP sell other than EVE at the moment? Valkyrie comes free with the Oculus, so they're completely dependant on a deal no one knows about. Gunjack seems to be developed fully with EVE money. WoD was developed with EVE money (hell, White Wolf was bought with it). Dust was developed with a shady deal from Sony.

EVE is the only product they're actually selling to consumers at the moment (i doubt the Dust cash shop is bringing much, if at all). So where is the money for those investments coming from? In the very best case they're currently earning $$60m a year, which is nothing to be sniffed at. But it doesn't really mesh with what seems to be the current spending of CCP, and even with my untrained eye i can see that EVE is not getting a very big share of that income (Witcher 3 was made for less, to put that in perspective, over 5 years).



Ok, so it's a guess based on what you think you know.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#67 - 2016-02-16 22:38:21 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
If a player doesn't produce something, it's not for sale. Whether it's minerals, ships, WH locations, characters, game time, or now SP injectors. Either we produce it, or it doesn't exist. CCP doesn't pull this stuff out of their ass and sell it to us.


I had a thought about that. There's been a few events, where CCP have had event characters, that had large PLEX bounties on them, those PLEX being ones confiscated from banned player characters.

There was also the "Operation Frostline" thing a while back, where PLEX were loot, though I don't remember if those were also PLEX confiscated from banned characters. It'd make some sense if they were.

So, I was wondering if, maybe, there'll be other events in the future, where there'd be skill injectors as loot/bounties, using assets confiscated from banned characters.

What a peculiar situation that'd be, wouldn't it ?

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#68 - 2016-02-16 22:40:37 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile
I really appreciate the college try. I even think I understand the real motivation for this bit of apologetics. However, I don't think the rationale flies. There's a difference between a proof and a justification for a stance. Objective observation with no interest in the outcome can only conclude this feature is akin to an endorsed cheat code. Nothing more.

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#69 - 2016-02-16 22:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
CCP Falcon wrote:
I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.
I've been here almost 12 years. I didn't agree with the first blog and it's poor reasoning. I still don't agree, even after the pretence around the Kil2 name reasoning was dropped.
This is short sighted and not good for the long term.

Could I be wrong? Well yes. But the reasoning was so bad for this, I don't think the risk was worth it. CCP's recent history of getting it right first time isn't very good, but money ruled the day here.
So while you try and convince yourself, I'll stick with my first reaction. I do think this will be bad for Eve, long term. The cat is well and truly out of the bag.

Good luck.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
pajedas
Doomheim
#70 - 2016-02-16 22:53:19 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Why can't you people get it through your thick skulls that EVE is a closed loop. If a player doesn't produce something, it's not for sale. Whether it's minerals, ships, WH locations, characters, game time, or now SP injectors. Either we produce it, or it doesn't exist. CCP doesn't pull this stuff out of their ass and sell it to us.

Mr Epeen Cool

If not from their ass...where did they pull it?

🐇
Avvy
Doomheim
#71 - 2016-02-16 22:55:52 UTC
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:


I really appreciate the college try. I even think I understand the real motivation for this bit of apologetics. However, I don't think the rationale flies. There's a difference between a proof and a justification for a stance. Objective observation with no interest in the outcome can only conclude this feature is akin to an endorsed cheat code. Nothing more.



I think enough players wanted the change, CCP are not going to pass up an opportunity to make something out of it.

For me this game is about having enough sp to do what I want.

I get the impression some people play this game as in who has the most sp.

The point of the game originally was that you shouldn't be able to train everything so that there was diversity among characters. Hence the long training times and large skill tree.

Obviously after 13 years CCP decided that need no longer be the case.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2016-02-16 22:56:37 UTC
S'Way wrote:
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:
I cant wait to see what happens to the price of PLEX.

After seeing so many convinced they can now "PLEX with SP's" and saying they're unsubbing to do so while setting up SP farms....There's only one way PLEX are going rapidly soon and that's not down, time to get the popcorn.


Yeah i would be one of those. My current sub on my main has about 10 hours to run. It is currently training something meaningless like Advanced Targeting to V.

I have enough ISK to PLEX (including billions worth of PI in losec ready to ship to market and at least a billion in uncashed SP) and subbing with cash is something like 15 minutes real time work at my current pay rate but as I am unable to play much at present , subbing under this new regime is pointless and a waste of ISK/cash.

In 6 or 12 months time I will probably resub if i have time to play again.

Even under pre-injector EVE it probably made more sense to unsub when i could not play but you kno whow it goes, unsubbing your main was something you just did not do, it was not EVE. The new system gives me the freedom (in my own head at least) to unsub when I am busy in real life.


Comments on Pay to Win:

People seriously underestimate the disposable income some people have available. I have a friend that bought a new Cessna Citation as a "toy". Yeah sure he writes some of that off against his business but its basically a multimillion dollar business jet he takes his family for day trips in. He does not play EVE but if this guy was in an EVE alliance and they needed desperately to retrain for a new doctrine he would not think twice about throwing 100K US$ into skill extractors to get his fleet mates into the new ships.

What will happen next?

Random conjecture here ... but I can see CCP creating more and more minimally useful and expensive to train timewise high end skills as carrots to get ISK rich high SP players to invest in extractors.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#73 - 2016-02-16 22:56:45 UTC
Also:

I have less trouble with skill trading on its own compared to the issues I experience with the way that ccp (employess) attempt to make this a wonderful new feature (singalong - for the new players - singalong)

The accumulated [...] collected in the pile of :reasons: given is what bugs me the most. And what I think hurt not only the company (crowd control productions) but also the game itself. And probably also the community.

NPE-ISD-Übersetzt!
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2016-02-16 22:59:23 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
And the worst...

We haven't actually seen any game-changing content after Apocrypha hit, unless you count Dominion as well.

Active systems


Well, halfway to your post about a game-changing feature you consider the lack of it a bad thing. Ironic that what you say is bad for EvE is also missing from EvE
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#75 - 2016-02-16 23:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Thankfully one can count on the Marketing guys getting things right... Lol

Advertisement on the Launcher:

FLY THE SHIP OF YOUR DREAMS!
PILE ON THE SKILLPOINTS!
WITH SKILL INJECTORS

Translation:

PAID A SUBSCRIPTION, GOT NO BACON!
PAY AGAIN AND GET BACON!
PRESS BUTTON
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2016-02-16 23:20:15 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Grauth Thorner wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:

Just a question and nothing personal falcon but who brainwashed you? Your collegues of controlling or marketing?

Funny how a lot (I'm not saying it was you) of players used to say 'nah, you don't need skills to PvP, you need experience!' to new pilots before CCP introduced the skill injectors. Roll


Falcon and all those players you mention are completely right in saying, that experience and player skill count for much more than skillpoints. A low SP pilot in a frigate may take out a high SP character in a battleship if he knows what he is doing and if the target does not. This has been true before SP trading, and it is still true.

However true it may be, though, it doesn't matter if you take two players with the same level of experience. Among two newbies who don't know anything about the game, the one who can dump hundreds of dollars into the game has the edge over the one who can't. Same with Veterans.

SP don't matter a lot, but among all the things you can buy with real money in Eve, they matter the most.

I disagree, btw, with the notion that CCP fixes the game with SP trading. This doesn't fix anything, least of all the NPE.


WHY how does one get an advantage if they start at the same time but one has more money IRL?

New player scenario:
Rich player can buy skills and plex to fit out a Dominix with 150mm rail guns + t2 heavy armor drones?

Vet Scenario:
Rich vet buys extractors to deplete his skills? nope not and advantage
Rich vet buys 100m skillpoints and now can fly all mining exhumers because he has every other combat ship trained already so yay? another great advantage? - nope
Rich vet trains up another alt to fly another ...... whatever it is he is a vet it's just a clone of his main, nothing new gained.
Having multiple accounts is a thing and has nothing to do with SP trading so this advantage is debunked as well.

Help me out here people, where is the advantage specifically gained trough SP trading, so many complaints, not ONE proven negative consequence. Except salty tears, I guess thats a negative...... NOPE not even that, this is EvE, tears are a good thing.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#77 - 2016-02-16 23:24:24 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


Completely agree. EvE has to evolve. Get out of your caves space people and go create fire..

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Avvy
Doomheim
#78 - 2016-02-16 23:24:42 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Thankfully one can count on the Marketing guys getting things right... Lol

Advertisement on the Launcher:

FLY THE SHIP OF YOUR DREAMS!
PILE ON THE SKILLPOINTS!
WITH SKILL INJECTORS

Translation:

PAID A SUBSCRIPTION, GOT NO BACON!
PAY AGAIN AND GET BACON!
PRESS BUTTON



I saw that.

Can't say I was impressed.



Imagine if the ship of your dreams was a Titan, that would cost a lot.
Cixi
#79 - 2016-02-16 23:29:29 UTC
There is another advantage most people don't see, it put back dormant assets and money back into the market.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2016-02-16 23:36:01 UTC
Rat Scout wrote:


Help me out here people, where is the advantage specifically gained trough SP trading, so many complaints, not ONE proven negative consequence. Except salty tears, I guess thats a negative...... NOPE not even that, this is EvE, tears are a good thing.


Doctrines and ISK rich large alliances and coalitions getting a fleet into a new meta by throwing ISK at extractors for all the fleet members.

Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily.

But it is an advantage.