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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

First post
Author
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#41 - 2016-02-16 20:47:47 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
And as i said, ccp is doing EXACTLY what we wanted after the summer of rage.

most people like to say the summer of rage was about incarnia and the $1000 jeans and the memo, none of that is true. This was all icing on the cake.

The summer of rage was the fact that ccp spent (at the time) 18 months working on things that were incomplete (which is what ccp always did, move form shiney to shiney) and then to add icing gave us more crap when at the time, over 1/2 of the game was broken.

We demanded they stop and fix what is broken. It was not about incarnia and abandoning it and wis, it was not about micro transactions, it was not about greed is good, it was the fact that eve was in a horrid state, and ccp was not saying they were gonna fix it.



It wasn't about Incarna on its own, it was about CCP working full-time on new features and abandoning old ones (leaving them in their bugged state). Incarna and Greed is Good were catalysts for this, but indeed not the cause. I apologize if i wasn't clear on that.

What bugs me about this *now* is that CCP have used 4,5 years for just bugfixing. In that time, for example, The Witcher 3 was fully developed from scratched, released and received several content expansions. Several entire MMO's were started and released in that time.

I'm just wondering why CCP has 600 people and (as far as i heard) only 50-70 of them are currently working on EVE, currently their only reliable moneymaker.

I want Incarna to be fully realized. I want atmospheric flight. I want full integration of Valkyrie and Dust/Legion into the main game, not seperate games.

I want the game CCP presented in this trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ0k0ioROUo

And in this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTUazuGdTw

So far i haven't seen it. And it saddens me to no end knowing that at this rate it won't be happening in our lifetimes.



you answered your own statement. A company that have a single product is a company that has a much higher chance of dying. Dust/legion/Not legion, valk, gunjack, WoD, all these were/are chances to expand the brand and make secondary or even third income sources. Relying on a single product in the volatile (it is) video game market is crazy. EVE may have lasted 13 years now, but if ccp stayed focused on just eve, and lets say, Scam Citizen did come and was great, there is a real possibility eve and CCP dies. But if say CCP has a few decent games out, and Scan Citizen comes, then eve losing numbers and dying won;t hurt ccp and won;t kill new eden either. It would give ccp a chance to make an EVE 2, or keep chugging. Business' are suppose to grow. If not then lucas would only have done star wars, and no other brand. but they don;t because that is highly risky.

That was the point of WoD, to add more brands to ccp. But they really just need to focus on the New Eden ip and will be fine.

Thats why they are doing other projects. Share holders, Stake Holders and owners want more money and more return on there investment. EVE's growth was great, but it was going to eventually reach a peak. And thats scary if its all you have. The repair mode should be winding down soon (i think) with citadels and new structures (which will be new and chance game play) we are getting to the end. New stuff should come. I am 100% ok with ccp supplementing income till then. I will be pissed if i was forced to buy injectors or eve goes F2P, but some mild supplemental s that could add different game play elements in the future? sure.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Titus Cole Dooley
Fuel Blocks for Dante
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#42 - 2016-02-16 20:49:58 UTC
I think the thing that bothers me the most about the SP Injectors is that it puts a price on your loyalty to EVE and your time spent waiting for skills to train. Yes it sucked waiting for 47 days for a skill to finish but it was like counting down the days until (insert holiday) when you where a kid. Now you are all grown up and you can just buy what you want...
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#43 - 2016-02-16 20:52:07 UTC
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#44 - 2016-02-16 21:03:10 UTC
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:
I think the thing that bothers me the most about the SP Injectors is that it puts a price on your loyalty to EVE and your time spent waiting for skills to train. Yes it sucked waiting for 47 days for a skill to finish but it was like counting down the days until (insert holiday) when you where a kid. Now you are all grown up and you can just buy what you want...
You know what? It still sucks waiting for long skills to train.

I'm currently 2 days into a 45 day skill on one of my characters. One of the rare rank 14 level 5 skills that is not for ego (Capital construction), but is actually mandatory for a high end builder.

There's not a chance in hell that I am going to drop however many injectors @ 400k SP per that I'd need to finish that three million SP skill. It would take forever to see a return on that ISK investment. There comes a point of diminishing returns where injection is simply not worth it. That's why I'm not as concerned as many here that we're going to see a bunch of 300+ M SP characters.

Mr Epeen Cool

S'Way
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2016-02-16 21:14:03 UTC
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:
I cant wait to see what happens to the price of PLEX.

After seeing so many convinced they can now "PLEX with SP's" and saying they're unsubbing to do so while setting up SP farms....There's only one way PLEX are going rapidly soon and that's not down, time to get the popcorn.
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
#46 - 2016-02-16 21:20:07 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Grauth Thorner wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:

Just a question and nothing personal falcon but who brainwashed you? Your collegues of controlling or marketing?

Funny how a lot (I'm not saying it was you) of players used to say 'nah, you don't need skills to PvP, you need experience!' to new pilots before CCP introduced the skill injectors. Roll

However true it may be, though, it doesn't matter if you take two players with the same level of experience. Among two newbies who don't know anything about the game, the one who can dump hundreds of dollars into the game has the edge over the one who can't. Same with Veterans.

Now let's take those same two players with the same level of experience, and go back to EVE Online without skill extractors. The one who can dump hundreds of dollars buys a character from the character bazaar, the one who can't, won't. The outcome between those two players will be exactly the same, namely that one has an edge over the other.

View real-time damage statistics in-game

>EVE Live DPS Graph application forum thread

>iciclesoft.com

Goatman NotMyFault
Lubrication Industries
Band of Boogers
#47 - 2016-02-16 21:26:57 UTC
Reiisha wrote:

I want the game CCP presented in this trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ0k0ioROUo

And in this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTUazuGdTw

So far i haven't seen it. And it saddens me to no end knowing that at this rate it won't be happening in our lifetimes.




CCP is like the kid that screamed "WOLF WOLF"..... Ive stopped hoping...

The reality is that CCP now only see EVE like a milkingcow, The big $ is gone... those $ was the incentive to evovle EVE, its gone... so is the future of EVE... But as long as the leftover players pay their monthly subs, CCP will keep EVE barely alive. Its beginning to smell like how "EVONY" was run... (Google it :D )
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#48 - 2016-02-16 21:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Manssell
Grauth Thorner wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Grauth Thorner wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:

Just a question and nothing personal falcon but who brainwashed you? Your collegues of controlling or marketing?

Funny how a lot (I'm not saying it was you) of players used to say 'nah, you don't need skills to PvP, you need experience!' to new pilots before CCP introduced the skill injectors. Roll

However true it may be, though, it doesn't matter if you take two players with the same level of experience. Among two newbies who don't know anything about the game, the one who can dump hundreds of dollars into the game has the edge over the one who can't. Same with Veterans.

Now let's take those same two players with the same level of experience, and go back to EVE Online without skill extractors. The one who can dump hundreds of dollars buys a character from the character bazaar, the one who can't, won't. The outcome between those two players will be exactly the same, namely that one has an edge over the other.



Except that the one could click on the show info and see that the 2009 character probably has more skill points, and make a decision accordingly. The edge could be known now it's not.
Avvy
Doomheim
#49 - 2016-02-16 21:30:22 UTC
S'Way wrote:
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:
I cant wait to see what happens to the price of PLEX.

After seeing so many convinced they can now "PLEX with SP's" and saying they're unsubbing to do so while setting up SP farms....There's only one way PLEX are going rapidly soon and that's not down, time to get the popcorn.


PLEX still need to enter the game otherwise there would eventually be none. Plus you need Aurum for the extractors, probably the reason they ended up in the shop.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#50 - 2016-02-16 21:42:59 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


You know (should know) that you've opened a door now. EVE has tried heroin for the first time. Your bets are that she won't get hooked to charging players for the abbility to do things and will stay clean and just charge them for accessing the game.

But it's heroin. You've injected it into the veins of this old whore we love and hate. There is no way out of this. Paying a subscription will never be enough again. Paying for the ability to do something is the latest new thing in EVE.

CCP can't make EVE a better game, so now they've started selling it in a different way. Piece by piece. Now it's been the ability to fly a ship or use a module without waiting for a subscription time to pass. And the next dose of heroin will be a little bigger...
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2016-02-16 21:43:55 UTC
Manssell wrote:
Except that the one could click on the show info and see that the 2009 character probably has more skill points, and make a decision accordingly. The edge could be known now it's not.


Do you do that? Look at a character's age before deciding how/whether to engage in PvP? I don't. I look at what they're flying. What friends they have the next system over. Whether they've brought in a boosting T3. I never give even a first thought to their age.
Reiisha
#52 - 2016-02-16 21:44:18 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
And as i said, ccp is doing EXACTLY what we wanted after the summer of rage.

most people like to say the summer of rage was about incarnia and the $1000 jeans and the memo, none of that is true. This was all icing on the cake.

The summer of rage was the fact that ccp spent (at the time) 18 months working on things that were incomplete (which is what ccp always did, move form shiney to shiney) and then to add icing gave us more crap when at the time, over 1/2 of the game was broken.

We demanded they stop and fix what is broken. It was not about incarnia and abandoning it and wis, it was not about micro transactions, it was not about greed is good, it was the fact that eve was in a horrid state, and ccp was not saying they were gonna fix it.



It wasn't about Incarna on its own, it was about CCP working full-time on new features and abandoning old ones (leaving them in their bugged state). Incarna and Greed is Good were catalysts for this, but indeed not the cause. I apologize if i wasn't clear on that.

What bugs me about this *now* is that CCP have used 4,5 years for just bugfixing. In that time, for example, The Witcher 3 was fully developed from scratched, released and received several content expansions. Several entire MMO's were started and released in that time.

I'm just wondering why CCP has 600 people and (as far as i heard) only 50-70 of them are currently working on EVE, currently their only reliable moneymaker.

I want Incarna to be fully realized. I want atmospheric flight. I want full integration of Valkyrie and Dust/Legion into the main game, not seperate games.

I want the game CCP presented in this trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ0k0ioROUo

And in this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTUazuGdTw

So far i haven't seen it. And it saddens me to no end knowing that at this rate it won't be happening in our lifetimes.



you answered your own statement. A company that have a single product is a company that has a much higher chance of dying. Dust/legion/Not legion, valk, gunjack, WoD, all these were/are chances to expand the brand and make secondary or even third income sources. Relying on a single product in the volatile (it is) video game market is crazy. EVE may have lasted 13 years now, but if ccp stayed focused on just eve, and lets say, Scam Citizen did come and was great, there is a real possibility eve and CCP dies. But if say CCP has a few decent games out, and Scan Citizen comes, then eve losing numbers and dying won;t hurt ccp and won;t kill new eden either. It would give ccp a chance to make an EVE 2, or keep chugging. Business' are suppose to grow. If not then lucas would only have done star wars, and no other brand. but they don;t because that is highly risky.

That was the point of WoD, to add more brands to ccp. But they really just need to focus on the New Eden ip and will be fine.

Thats why they are doing other projects. Share holders, Stake Holders and owners want more money and more return on there investment. EVE's growth was great, but it was going to eventually reach a peak. And thats scary if its all you have. The repair mode should be winding down soon (i think) with citadels and new structures (which will be new and chance game play) we are getting to the end. New stuff should come. I am 100% ok with ccp supplementing income till then. I will be pissed if i was forced to buy injectors or eve goes F2P, but some mild supplemental s that could add different game play elements in the future? sure.


My point is that they're neglecting their only moneymaking product and are trying to fund half a dozen other projects with money they either don't have, or don't want to invest back into their primary moneymaker.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Darkblad
Doomheim
#53 - 2016-02-16 21:48:30 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.
That's why the suggestions to allow readjustment of skill points on the same character (using extractors and then inject them back into the same character w/o DR or other ways that would allow CCP to get some money) got added right during the discussion of the first devblog! Now I see.

Or rather not.

Instead, you continue to proclaim this all is for the new players (three times alone in the two flight academy videos). Who would dare to question any strategy that will help eve to attract more player (once again). But I still wonder how many new players actually used that feature - or actually know how to make use of the Tempest that's in the current banner ad for skilljection from your tutorial videos and other sources for NPE guidance.
stg slate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2016-02-16 21:48:32 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Manssell wrote:
Except that the one could click on the show info and see that the 2009 character probably has more skill points, and make a decision accordingly. The edge could be known now it's not.


Do you do that? Look at a character's age before deciding how/whether to engage in PvP? I don't. I look at what they're flying. What friends they have the next system over. Whether they've brought in a boosting T3. I never give even a first thought to their age.


Armchair PVPers and spaceship bushido adherants do this, actual PVPers not so much. If you make assumptions based on people's character's age then you die. Check age when you have the kill-mail.
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
#55 - 2016-02-16 21:55:51 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


I do understand your point of view.
Now that CCP came to the conclusion that the amout of skillpoints is irrelevant - is there an ETA on when all of us will have max-skilled accounts available?

As you said - that wouldn't change anything as it is our actions what define us and the game, not skillpoints.

Fail to see a reason why you wouldn't give all players all skills to V to enable each of us to keep our gameplay fresh and try new things.


Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#56 - 2016-02-16 21:58:37 UTC
Age was never an indicator of ones skill. Technically there could be a character who have been in EVE since day one, paid for a month, and then resubbed just last month. True veterancy and honorable status achieved by not being subscribed. Just having a record in the employment system.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
The Initiative.
#57 - 2016-02-16 22:00:39 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile

Not only is it P2W...it is also F2P if the prices settle in.
Your take on is getting paid by CCP - nothing else.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Avvy
Doomheim
#58 - 2016-02-16 22:02:12 UTC
Reiisha wrote:

My point is that they're neglecting their only moneymaking product and are trying to fund half a dozen other projects with money they either don't have, or don't want to invest back into their primary moneymaker.



How do you know this exactly?

Do you take the minutes at their board meetings?
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#59 - 2016-02-16 22:05:07 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Manssell wrote:
Except that the one could click on the show info and see that the 2009 character probably has more skill points, and make a decision accordingly. The edge could be known now it's not.


Do you do that? Look at a character's age before deciding how/whether to engage in PvP? I don't. I look at what they're flying. What friends they have the next system over. Whether they've brought in a boosting T3. I never give even a first thought to their age.



Sure why wouldn't you, it's a piece of intel (well used to be until the skill extractors). Don't do it so much anymore, but especially early on as a new player it was a good indication if you'd be fighting someone with T2 fittings or metta. It still comes in handy if you need to figure out which character is in which ship you're about to jump into.

I don't really care too much either way about the extractors. Just pointing out that a piece of intel was lost and one that probably mattered more to new players than the rest of us.
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
#60 - 2016-02-16 22:10:14 UTC
Manssell wrote:
Grauth Thorner wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Grauth Thorner wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:

Just a question and nothing personal falcon but who brainwashed you? Your collegues of controlling or marketing?

Funny how a lot (I'm not saying it was you) of players used to say 'nah, you don't need skills to PvP, you need experience!' to new pilots before CCP introduced the skill injectors. Roll

However true it may be, though, it doesn't matter if you take two players with the same level of experience. Among two newbies who don't know anything about the game, the one who can dump hundreds of dollars into the game has the edge over the one who can't. Same with Veterans.

Now let's take those same two players with the same level of experience, and go back to EVE Online without skill extractors. The one who can dump hundreds of dollars buys a character from the character bazaar, the one who can't, won't. The outcome between those two players will be exactly the same, namely that one has an edge over the other.



Except that the one could click on the show info and see that the 2009 character probably has more skill points, and make a decision accordingly. The edge could be known now it's not.

Not sure where you got the number 2009 from, but either way, sure there are always corner cases where there is a slight difference. In fact, the biggest difference isn't even mentioned, namely that with skill extractors skillpoints were lost. This means that -all- pilots except the one using the skill extractor, including you, me and the new pilot not spending RL$ for an SP boost, just got a teeny tiny boost in their SP compared to the grand total of all pilots combined.

View real-time damage statistics in-game

>EVE Live DPS Graph application forum thread

>iciclesoft.com