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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-02-16 19:20:08 UTC
Grauth Thorner wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:

Just a question and nothing personal falcon but who brainwashed you? Your collegues of controlling or marketing?

Funny how a lot (I'm not saying it was you) of players used to say 'nah, you don't need skills to PvP, you need experience!' to new pilots before CCP introduced the skill injectors. Roll
Yet even more would swarm in trying to debunk that idea. So if the people you're talking about are right that's all the more reason to implement this, but if the people disputing them are right a system with no actual harm but limited benefit was introduced.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#22 - 2016-02-16 19:22:01 UTC
Yes people, EVE can do it to you.

But there is no need for such lengthy emotion driven posts that barely scratch the surface of CCP hardshell. Hardshell developed as defence against such emotional players, defence that must protect the CCP devs from insanity.

Can I have your stuff right now?

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2016-02-16 19:22:24 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


I share a similar sentiment, as a 9ish year player(across various toons/account)
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#24 - 2016-02-16 19:24:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Interesting. I'm still sorta in the honeymoon phase, thinking about the advantages and not too concerned with the obvious cons. Mainly, any idiot that buys skillpoints isn't better at all.

Will a player that spends hundreds of dollars maxing a character stick with eve? Maybe not, but they probably payed more in their one month of play, than I will in my entire life. The time value of money says that is better for CCP.

I'll also disagree with the richer are richer and poorer are poorer argument. Not that the richer aren't verifiably richer as you said. But contrary to inflation, so many prices are low. Stratios used to be over 600m. T3 cruisers are now selling around 200m for the hull. Yes, there has been an influx of isk from faucets, but the supply has been increasing faster than the demand. So poor players can upgrade their ships now more easily than ever.

So even though free isk seems to be at its highest point ever, because of increased production, the economy seems to be experiencing some deflation. Maybe because the richest players have been saving not recycling their isk, so they have been effectively been acting as isk sinks. Plex however is very much up due to increased utility.

Yes, gap is wider, but I don't think that interferes with my gameplay at all. It just makes it harder to beat their "high score." Whatever that is.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-02-16 19:24:53 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


CCP Falcon, as a player only two years into the game I entirely agree about SP trading not being a bad thing. It fits in very nicely with the player-driven economy in EVE, and the philosophy of everything in the game being sell-able. However, I am concerned that there is a real-world money cost associated with skillpoint trading. I support spending RM on game time, on a trade-able object that can be used to game time or other services, on cosmetic vanity items... but simply trading something between two players that was acquired during paid playtime? It'd be like, say, requiring the purchase of something with RM in order to transfer ownership of a super or titan. If you wouldn't mind, could you share your thoughts (or even CCP's thoughts?) on the RM cost of Extractors?
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2016-02-16 19:31:23 UTC
CCP Falcon, there is a flaw with your reasoning ... you say, skill injection is not P2W, which I fully agree with ... but this is the veteran's point of view, because we actually know this and have already enough skillpoints to do what we want (maybe not with 100% efficiency). Injectors are just a convenience or luxury and we have the ISK to buy them. But what is the newbie's view on that? You just increased the psychological pressure on them, to spent a lot of RL cash to "catch up" or fulfill requirements, only because it's possible and easy accessible. You even advertise it when opening the skill queue. What do you tell not anymore newbies, once they figure out it's not P2W?

I'm my own NPC alt.
Titus Cole Dooley
Fuel Blocks for Dante
#27 - 2016-02-16 19:47:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Titus Cole Dooley
The real Fun math is this.

1 PLEX = $20 = 1,228,000,000.00 Isk
SP injector = 614,000,000.00 Isk
10 Extractor = $45

2700sp/h * 24= 64,800 * 365 = 23,652,000 SP in a year

23,652,000 / 500,000 = 47.304 Extractors needed
$45 * 5 = $225

Sell SP Injectors
47 * 614,000,000.00 = 28,858,000,000.00 isk

Convert Isk into PLEX
28,858,000,000.00 / 1,228,000,000.00 = 23.5

by my bad math you can see at right now prices if you really farm one toon you can about PLEX 2 of them. Yes i know prices will change. I guess what i am trying to say is this could really be not good for CCP but what do i know. I cant wait to see what happens to the price of PLEX.
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#28 - 2016-02-16 19:50:10 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

... Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.




Pastor Maldonado paid to win.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#29 - 2016-02-16 19:56:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Manssell wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

... Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.




Pastor Maldonado paid to win.

And could barely keep his car out of the wall. Not sad at all to see him leave the sport. I remember one race in particular (I think it was during an FP session) the commentors were at a loss for words. The in car camera clearly showed him messing with controls on the wheel and he wasnt even looking up. Ran his car straight through the corner and into a wall. Lol

If Maldonado is an example of p2w its a perfect analogy for eve players injecting sp. You can have all the shiny ships and skills you want but it wont keep you from driving straight into a wall.

Daemun of Khanid
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#30 - 2016-02-16 20:07:54 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile

Just a question and nothing personal falcon but who brainwashed you? Your collegues of controlling or marketing?


I don't think he's brainwashed. I think that honest people can disagree, and I do. Everything has positives and negatives and I think the negatives of SP trading or going to lash EVE like a sail boat in a hurricane eventually. And it will have nothing to do with some noob pwning some vet because of SP, because SP is meaningless for that.

But then everything you don't earn (in the context of the game) is meaningless....which is the problem.
Fergus Runkle
Truth and Reconciliation Council
#31 - 2016-02-16 20:08:24 UTC
@ CCP Falcon

13 year vet to 13 year vet

Was this IronBank what you had in mind when you (CCP) discussed skill point trading?

The Cruel, Dark world of New Eden has been chipped away at for quite a few years now.

The OP stated my thoughts so much more eloquently than I ever could we have had polish here and there and a number of systems changed that really worked quite well ( eq camera / scanning ) but the game play is pretty much the same.

I can't quite say why but the skill point trading thing just seems to be straw that has me not logging in to Eve for the last week.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#32 - 2016-02-16 20:17:27 UTC
i have 150m sp (low for a 12 year vet, never used implants, meh) and i die to noobs as well as vets. why? cause i suck at pvp. The amount of sp's one has means nothing.

And as i said, ccp is doing EXACTLY what we wanted after the summer of rage.

most people like to say the summer of rage was about incarnia and the $1000 jeans and the memo, none of that is true. This was all icing on the cake.

The summer of rage was the fact that ccp spent (at the time) 18 months working on things that were incomplete (which is what ccp always did, move form shiney to shiney) and then to add icing gave us more crap when at the time, over 1/2 of the game was broken.

We demanded they stop and fix what is broken. It was not about incarnia and abandoning it and wis, it was not about micro transactions, it was not about greed is good, it was the fact that eve was in a horrid state, and ccp was not saying they were gonna fix it.

CCP was the guy working on your house, your ground floor is falling apart, he tells you he will fix it, and send you off on a vacation for a bit, and you come back, only to find out he added a second floor and did not fix what needed to be fixed. So when you confront him, he starts to talk about adding a new skylight in the new roof he is designing.. again, your bottom floor will be crushed under the now added weight so the skylight doesn;t matter.


Thats what we were pissed about. but too many people who were not paying attention think we were mad at the micro transactions and wis alone.

DP trading is good, it gives ccp a supplemental income, its not mandatory, sp's are not made out of thin air, you can get newer players, and friends into things faster so they can have fun. its a win win. As long as ccp keeps fixing the broken, and finished up the repair stage soon, i'm quite happy with the direction we are going. Esp with pos' about to ******* die in a god damn fire.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Reiisha
#33 - 2016-02-16 20:17:53 UTC
I'd have liked a little more commentary on this, especially on the negative consequences of the system.

I also think that if there was no real world cost associated with skill injectors i'd have been a lot more agreeable to them. Back in the day there was talk about a system where players could teach skills to others, completely removing them from the market - That would have been a much more sensible system imho, maybe it costs a certain amount of SP to do it.

As it stands though, it feels like a hastily put together feature to rake in some more cash from extractor/injector/plex sales rather than a really useful feature.

I also still stand by the concept of skills - It doesn't teach you to play the game, but it feeds into the core values of EVE so perfectly that i feel it's a shame to rip it out, not just because i don't agree with the system itself, but because of the doors it opens up to putting other aspects of the game behind what is basically a paywall.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2016-02-16 20:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Grauth Thorner wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:

Just a question and nothing personal falcon but who brainwashed you? Your collegues of controlling or marketing?

Funny how a lot (I'm not saying it was you) of players used to say 'nah, you don't need skills to PvP, you need experience!' to new pilots before CCP introduced the skill injectors. Roll


Falcon and all those players you mention are completely right in saying, that experience and player skill count for much more than skillpoints. A low SP pilot in a frigate may take out a high SP character in a battleship if he knows what he is doing and if the target does not. This has been true before SP trading, and it is still true.

However true it may be, though, it doesn't matter if you take two players with the same level of experience. Among two newbies who don't know anything about the game, the one who can dump hundreds of dollars into the game has the edge over the one who can't. Same with Veterans.

SP don't matter a lot, but among all the things you can buy with real money in Eve, they matter the most.

I disagree, btw, with the notion that CCP fixes the game with SP trading. This doesn't fix anything, least of all the NPE.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#35 - 2016-02-16 20:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Reiisha wrote:


I also think that if there was no real world cost associated with skill injectors i'd have been a lot more agreeable to them. Back in the day there was talk about a system where players could teach skills to others, completely removing them from the market - That would have been a much more sensible system imho, maybe it costs a certain amount of SP to do it.


Now you see, this is the part that will fly complexity over the SP cheerleaders heads. That's because it doesn't play into their narrative of "you're jealous because someone can have more SP than you" or "you are afraid of losing a pvp fight to an SP injected noob" lol.

I accept that broken record tag this time but I'm going to say this anyways. It was the same with Dominion. I once had a guy tell me I didn't like dominion because it meant my 'big bloc' alliance would lose space. I was in Atlas, then IT, then AAA during that period, ending up in NCDot and every alliance I was in had renters after that. Renters lol. So much for losing space.

Some folks really can't get that self interest can be big picture rather than small picture. SP trading is great for me in the short term, maybe even in the longer term. I still think it's going to do a bad turn to the game eventually, and I hope to be here with my "I told ya" post when it happens...
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#36 - 2016-02-16 20:25:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Manssell
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Manssell wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

... Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.




Pastor Maldonado paid to win.

And could barely keep his car out of the wall. Not sad at all to see him leave the sport. I remember one race in particular (I think it was during an FP session) the commentors were at a loss for words. The in car camera clearly showed him messing with controls on the wheel and he wasnt even looking up. Ran his car straight through the corner and into a wall. Lol

If Maldonado is an example of p2w its a perfect analogy for eve players injecting sp. You can have all the shiny ships and skills you want but it wont keep you from driving straight into a wall.


Oh man I think that was FP at Hungary(?) when he did that. I remember It was something like one race after he did the exact same thing in FP but didn't hit a wall the first time. So glad he's gone. (Don't do it Manor!)

It saddens me that he holds Williams' last victory.
Reiisha
#37 - 2016-02-16 20:29:22 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
And as i said, ccp is doing EXACTLY what we wanted after the summer of rage.

most people like to say the summer of rage was about incarnia and the $1000 jeans and the memo, none of that is true. This was all icing on the cake.

The summer of rage was the fact that ccp spent (at the time) 18 months working on things that were incomplete (which is what ccp always did, move form shiney to shiney) and then to add icing gave us more crap when at the time, over 1/2 of the game was broken.

We demanded they stop and fix what is broken. It was not about incarnia and abandoning it and wis, it was not about micro transactions, it was not about greed is good, it was the fact that eve was in a horrid state, and ccp was not saying they were gonna fix it.



It wasn't about Incarna on its own, it was about CCP working full-time on new features and abandoning old ones (leaving them in their bugged state). Incarna and Greed is Good were catalysts for this, but indeed not the cause. I apologize if i wasn't clear on that.

What bugs me about this *now* is that CCP have used 4,5 years for just bugfixing. In that time, for example, The Witcher 3 was fully developed from scratched, released and received several content expansions. Several entire MMO's were started and released in that time.

I'm just wondering why CCP has 600 people and (as far as i heard) only 50-70 of them are currently working on EVE, currently their only reliable moneymaker.

I want Incarna to be fully realized. I want atmospheric flight. I want full integration of Valkyrie and Dust/Legion into the main game, not seperate games.

I want the game CCP presented in this trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ0k0ioROUo

And in this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTUazuGdTw

So far i haven't seen it. And it saddens me to no end knowing that at this rate it won't be happening in our lifetimes.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2016-02-16 20:34:14 UTC
Fergus Runkle wrote:
@ CCP Falcon

13 year vet to 13 year vet

Was this IronBank what you had in mind when you (CCP) discussed skill point trading?

The Cruel, Dark world of New Eden has been chipped away at for quite a few years now.

The OP stated my thoughts so much more eloquently than I ever could we have had polish here and there and a number of systems changed that really worked quite well ( eq camera / scanning ) but the game play is pretty much the same.

I can't quite say why but the skill point trading thing just seems to be straw that has me not logging in to Eve for the last week.


Based on CCP Falcon's statement, I bet they did consider cases like IronBank's, and dismissed those cases as irrelevant.
Avvy
Doomheim
#39 - 2016-02-16 20:39:55 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Fergus Runkle wrote:
@ CCP Falcon

13 year vet to 13 year vet

Was this IronBank what you had in mind when you (CCP) discussed skill point trading?

The Cruel, Dark world of New Eden has been chipped away at for quite a few years now.

The OP stated my thoughts so much more eloquently than I ever could we have had polish here and there and a number of systems changed that really worked quite well ( eq camera / scanning ) but the game play is pretty much the same.

I can't quite say why but the skill point trading thing just seems to be straw that has me not logging in to Eve for the last week.


Based on CCP Falcon's statement, I bet they did consider cases like IronBank's, and dismissed those cases as irrelevant.




Possibly...

Plus collecting the most sp isn't the purpose of the game, it's just what some players decided to make as their personal goals.
Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort
#40 - 2016-02-16 20:41:06 UTC
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:
The real Fun math is this.

1 PLEX = $20 = 1,228,000,000.00 Isk
SP injector = 614,000,000.00 Isk
10 Extractor = $45

2700sp/h * 24= 64,800 * 365 = 23,652,000 SP in a year

23,652,000 / 500,000 = 47.304 Extractors needed
$45 * 5 = $225

Sell SP Injectors
47 * 614,000,000.00 = 28,858,000,000.00 isk

Convert Isk into PLEX
28,858,000,000.00 / 1,228,000,000.00 = 23.5

by my bad math you can see at right now prices if you really farm one toon you can about PLEX 2 of them. Yes i know prices will change. I guess what i am trying to say is this could really be not good for CCP but what do i know. I cant wait to see what happens to the price of PLEX.


While I would agree that this is the case right now, you need to have more faith in the Eve Economy than that.

Depending on your take on the economy, the price will adjust according to how players respond. If it becomes easy to do this than more players will do it. More players looking to buy plex will cause the price to go up and make it harder to do.

The injector prices can be broken down like this (please allow for simplicity)

Extractor Cost + Skill Point Cost + Premium

You showed above how you can convert plex/isk to RL$. The extra Premium cost is what will shrink and contract overtime. This part is what will determine how many toons can be plexed.

Now what the injectors do allow for is a very easy way to supplement a plex which should cause the value to go up.