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Dev blog: Unboxing the new Camera in EVE Online

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Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#481 - 2016-02-16 16:17:57 UTC
The thing is, we don't /WANT/ a fade-in. Just make it refresh instantly.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#482 - 2016-02-16 16:21:25 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
CCP Turtlepower wrote:


Sorry about that, I should have worded that differently. I meant that the list BEGINS to populate instantly. This is quicker than in the old camera because you don't have to wait for the camera to move first before it populates.

CCP Turtlepower


What, exactly, was the rationale behind this?

I'm generally pretty quick to defend the various UI changes you guys make. Many of them need polish, but I can see the potential.

I feel confident in saying that this is something nobody wants, nobody has ever wanted, and nobody will ever want.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#483 - 2016-02-16 16:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Oh my, never mind. I can see what's happening w my dscan refreshing every time now. I socket closed before so wasn't able to finish testing it out.

When the Dscan refreshed key is pressed it basically toggles it on. So then you can sit there and click down items in the overview and click each one and get a scan result without hit the dscan refresh key every time.

The BIG problem with this is that now lets say you're sitting in a FW complex with dscan set to 360 deg and 1au. This for anyone who doesn't FW is how you watch your gate on the outside to see if anyone is coming in after you. Previously you would just sit there and spam the dscan refresh key to keep your dscan updated to see what's outside. With the Dscan refresh key being taken over by this new tracking camera function you can't do that any more. It just keeps toggling the tracking cam dscan on and off. VERY not good.

1. Seperate this new function from the dscan refresh function. We NEED a plain jane vanilla Dscan refresh function. This is not optional. Sorry to seem demanding but taking away something as basic as a dscan refresh shortcut is just silly. There's literally zero reason to map it to the same key as the old dscan refresh.

2. The (I'm calling it autoscan scan) toggle might be nice for some ppl but I think it would be a much better idea to make it so that it functions as a "hold" key. So that instead of pressing the key once and then being able to go down the overview list getting dscan results you have to hold that key (which better not be the same as the dscan refresh key btw) and then it will automatically refresh dscan for each item selected.
The biggest reason for this is that once pressed you lose the ability to manually rotate the camera. It was quite a shock to me when I pressed the dscan key and dscanned a few things then tried to rotate the view and nothing would pop up but a marquee box. There was a moment of panic there that the camera was completely broken before I figured out to hit the dscan key again to toggle it off and reenable the camera controls. If left as is it's gonna result in ship reimbursement tickets from people pressing that key during or right before a fight, then panicking because they cant get their camera to function and ending up dead..

Bolded for importance. Thats a VERY bad effect.

EDIT: It seems the way the V key was functioning as a toggle with the new effect was a result of the way my gamepad handles key presses. It works as expected if I just use the keyboard. It's therefore an issue on my end more than a functionality issue.

Daemun of Khanid
RuriHoshino
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#484 - 2016-02-16 16:23:53 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I've said it before (likely in this thread) and I'll say it again.

If you're working on the UI in EVE, look, we get it. You want it to look pretty like the rest of the game. That's cool.

But you're doing so at the expense of core functionality, every. Goddamn. Time.

The beta starmap. Still missing core functionality from the original map.

Beta camera. Still missing core functionality from the original camera.

This new d-scan animation? Outright removes core functionality from the tool.



Function over form. Function over form. Function over form. Repeat it until it sinks in, or this cycle of UI tweaks followed by supernovas of player rage will not end.



Not empty quoting. Stop trying to fix things that were perfectly functional.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#485 - 2016-02-16 16:24:16 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Manic Velocity wrote:
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
the results are populated instantly in the D-scan window.


This is so obviously not the case. The very first thing I noticed is the delayed, line-by-line output of the scan results.


Sorry about that, I should have worded that differently. I meant that the list BEGINS to populate instantly. This is quicker than in the old camera because you don't have to wait for the camera to move first before it populates.

CCP Turtlepower


This statement assumes I am not already pointed at a target. I spend a lot of time "watching" a location with D-scan. What this does is add additional confusion to those d-scans.

I get the desire to nerf dscan, but I just don't think this is a very elegant solution.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#486 - 2016-02-16 16:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Kazi Kugisa wrote:
Scotsman Howard wrote:
For those of us at work and have not had time to test this yet, can someone please give me a basic idea of how a couple of these things are working right now?

toggle tracking camera" - Does this mean you can turn it on or off like the old camera's "focus on selected item" option (or whatever it was actually called)? It sounds like the center of the focus is off from some of the other comments, but it is at least a start. Does this toggle last session to session, system to system, etc.? or does it need to be re-toggled every time?

D-scan hotkey (V + Click) - How exactly is this different other than adding a click? Did they not add a d-scan hotkey option a while ago that does not involve a click?

Thanks for the help understanding what is happening.



On the D-scan, you have to keep the V key held down while clicking the object at the same time. If it was press V and then click, I would be cool with it. I could map it to a mousebutton, like I do with the D-Scan hotkey. I can't map a continuous press. So now my only typing hand is tied to the V key the entire time I try to go through a list of celestials.


I don't know if this was something they changed since the initial patch this morning but it is now how things are working for me. If I press "V" (K for my remap) it toggles the auto dscan to on and then I can click as many things on overview as I want and get a fresh dscan for each. I know this is something you said would be good but it is not. See my previous post for reasons why.

(To sum it up.
1. Once you toggle that key to on it disables other camera controls so that you can only manually move the camera again once you turn it off. This will result in much "MY CAMERA IS BROKEN" panic.
2. If it turned off after each object selected on overview then there's no point in having that key function at all. You might as well just use the old dscan refresh key which meant you selected the object and then hit V or whatever to refresh the scan. Same key presses same ultimate function. Better to put the keypress AFTER the overview select than before otherwise you just run into flow problems. (Say you press the V key because you want to scan something then a ship lands on you but the UI is still waiting for you to select an object to dscan. So you end up with a UI that won't respond till you show it what you want to scan by which time that svipul has you scrammed and you're dead. Much better to put the keypress AFTER the overview selection the way it already was.

Best way to implement it (I think) is to have it function as a hold key so that it scans any objected selected on overview while held AND make sure it's given a seperate shortcut from dscan refresh. For reasons mentioned in my previous post and others we really need to retain a simple dscan refresh functionality.

What might please all parties is if
a. ccp add's 2 entries to the shortcut's list.
1. "Toggle dscan refresh on select" So that once pressed you will get a dscan for each obect you select without holding anything down. This will give the toggled function you would prefer.
2. "Auto dscan hold key" So that while held down, the assigned key will refresh the dscan for each object selected.

You then assign a key for which ever method you prefer and leave which ever one you don't like blank/unassigned.
But again and this is important, KEEP A DSCAN REFRESH shortcut all to it's own that is separate from these tracking camera/overview/autodscan funtions.

EDIT: As I mention elsewhere, the fact that the V key was functioning as a toggle for me was due to the way my Logitech G13 was sending the signal to the client. As long as it's pressed on the keyboard it doesn't toggle on and off but instead has to be held down. I've also fixed the issue with the G13 so it functions properly now. My mistake. Cool

Daemun of Khanid
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#487 - 2016-02-16 16:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Also, as an aside, this change was communicated in a uniquely ****-poor fashion.

It almost seems a deliberate omission.

CCP Turtlepower wrote:
- Added tracking camera toggle (enable with Shift + C) to the Orbit mode
- Added a new way to D-Scan: hold V and click (V can be changed to other keys via the settings menu).


How do you fail to mention that, oh, by the way, "We've made D-Scan results populate line by line, and it's so slow that the scan refresh will complete before a large list fully populates." That's a pretty glaring omission.

It also wasn't mentioned in the previous post about the Hold-V addition being made on SiSi.

And I'm at a loss as to how anyone could think one weekend on the test server was sufficient, here.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Onamata Poeia
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#488 - 2016-02-16 16:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Onamata Poeia
Tippia wrote:


The following stuff still needs to be fixed:

• Tracking camera does not track — it “looks”.
By this I mean that the tracking camera puts the target in focus, rather than show your ship and the target in relation to that ship. It behaves as a very clumsy and pointless way to do what you used to do with the old “look -> set as parent -> set as target” advanced camera combo. No-one particularly used that because it had no real gameplay use (it made for good video fodder, but that's something unrelated and largely irrelevant that doesn't need its own camera mode).

The tracking camera needs to work like the old tracking camera: your ship in the middle (or at an adjustable offset); the target kept on-screen at an adjustable position; no camera tricks (no FoV or zoom or anything) other than rotating to ensure that both positions are on-screen and as close to their set-up points as possible. Otherwise, it becomes somewhere between pointless or just outright unintuitive for anything related to navigation, scanning, or actually… you know… tracking a target.

• Look camera does not look — it follows/does a fly-by
Looking at a target should do only exactly that: it puts the target at the centre of the screen; everything else works as normal in relation to this new focus object. No automated camera movement; no automated adjustments; nothing except what the user does to the camera (manually adjusting slew, zoom, FoV etc). At the moment, you constantly have to fight the camera's automation to be able to analyse details of the target object, which means it is largely pointless for… you know… looking at a target.

If you want to have a camera mode that offers all kinds of cinematic automation, then go ahead and do so, but keep it far far far away from the regular orbit camera that is used to actually play the game.



Quoting for truth. Emphasis mine.
Sad part is that post is that is so much simple common sense that it's slightly worrying that it's been implemented ion any other way.

In essence: Stop trying to predict how we want the camera to behave and make it behave like we tell it to. Cut the cinematic bs, or just make an alternative 'Cinema/Studio' mode where you can play around with the bobbing and flybys for your youtube videos till your heart is content without detracting from such a critical element of the core gameplay.
CCP Turtlepower
C C P
C C P Alliance
#489 - 2016-02-16 16:44:45 UTC
The D-Scan results list fade in animation will be removed completely later this week; We added this too hastily without considering all use cases. I apologize for the problems this has caused, thanks for all the feedback that has helped us to resolve this.

We also hope to squeeze in a few more bug fixes, particularly for some lingering zoom issues.

o7
CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters
Manic Velocity
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#490 - 2016-02-16 16:49:56 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
The D-Scan results list fade in animation will be removed completely later this week; We added this too hastily without considering all use cases. I apologize for the problems this has caused, thanks for all the feedback that has helped us to resolve this.

We also hope to squeeze in a few more bug fixes, particularly for some lingering zoom issues.

o7
CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters


Thank you.

"The most punchable face in New Eden."

Be excellent to each other.

Twitter | Twitch | YouTube
JonnyPew
Doomheim
#491 - 2016-02-16 16:51:39 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
The D-Scan results list fade in animation will be removed completely later this week; We added this too hastily without considering all use cases. I apologize for the problems this has caused, thanks for all the feedback that has helped us to resolve this.

We also hope to squeeze in a few more bug fixes, particularly for some lingering zoom issues.

o7
CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters

Muchas gracias

EVE Online video content creator

http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#492 - 2016-02-16 16:53:58 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
The D-Scan results list fade in animation will be removed completely later this week; We added this too hastily without considering all use cases. I apologize for the problems this has caused, thanks for all the feedback that has helped us to resolve this.

We also hope to squeeze in a few more bug fixes, particularly for some lingering zoom issues.

o7
CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters


<3

Now then, about this removing the old camera and not being able to right click and look around business?
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#493 - 2016-02-16 16:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
The D-Scan results list fade in animation will be removed completely later this week; We added this too hastily without considering all use cases. I apologize for the problems this has caused, thanks for all the feedback that has helped us to resolve this.

We also hope to squeeze in a few more bug fixes, particularly for some lingering zoom issues.

o7
CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters


Thank you for that Turtlepower, Pls also see my previous couple of posts. There are some big functionality issue's with the way these dscan and tracking camera functions are being implemented.

Daemun of Khanid
Chris Diaboli
System of the Unkown
#494 - 2016-02-16 17:04:21 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
The D-Scan results list fade in animation will be removed completely later this week;


Later?
How about now?
The Old D-Scan was also fixed on the fly.
It's quite impossible to play with this 'feature' in a wormhole.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#495 - 2016-02-16 17:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
OK, in regards to my last posts about the V key toggling on and having to be turned off.

I was wrong kinda... if I press the V key on the keyboard it has to be held down BUT if I press the key on my Logitech G13 that is programmed to the V key it toggles and has to be turned back off.

I don't know why it does this but can only assume it has something to do with the way the G13 handles press and release timing. So I'm going to write that issue off as a hardware compatibility issue.

That being said I have less issue with the way the new dscan/tracking function over writing the original dscan refresh functions as simply pressing and releasing the key performs a simple dscan window refresh the way it used to.

Daemun of Khanid
Kodaw Kuori
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#496 - 2016-02-16 17:23:22 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
The D-Scan results list fade in animation will be removed completely later this week; We added this too hastily without considering all use cases. I apologize for the problems this has caused, thanks for all the feedback that has helped us to resolve this.

We also hope to squeeze in a few more bug fixes, particularly for some lingering zoom issues.

o7
CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters


Yay!
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#497 - 2016-02-16 17:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
All my previous issue's with the Dscan refresh shortcut have been corrected/redacted.
All that's left is the option to remove the camera offset when using tracking camera and I'm a (reasonably) happy camper.

o7

Edit: I am getting some weird zoom action going on when jumping through gates. Never noticed before because I didn't use the camera long enough to find that out I guess. I assume though that that is one of the things included in the "bugs" that you mention fixing.

Daemun of Khanid
Johnathan Severasse
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#498 - 2016-02-16 17:34:22 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
The D-Scan results list fade in animation will be removed completely later this week; We added this too hastily without considering all use cases. I apologize for the problems this has caused, thanks for all the feedback that has helped us to resolve this.

We also hope to squeeze in a few more bug fixes, particularly for some lingering zoom issues.

o7
CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters


Thanks guys! We appreciate it!
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#499 - 2016-02-16 17:36:42 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I've said it before (likely in this thread) and I'll say it again.

If you're working on the UI in EVE, look, we get it. You want it to look pretty like the rest of the game. That's cool.

But you're doing so at the expense of core functionality, every. Goddamn. Time.

The beta starmap. Still missing core functionality from the original map.

Beta camera. Still missing core functionality from the original camera.

This new d-scan animation? Outright removes core functionality from the tool.



Function over form. Function over form. Function over form. Repeat it until it sinks in, or this cycle of UI tweaks followed by supernovas of player rage will not end.



What a good post!

Do not remove the old camera.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Kaivaja
State War Academy
Caldari State
#500 - 2016-02-16 17:41:38 UTC
Good fixes in the 2nd patch today, but also one regression: when you go through a gate or wormhole, the previous camera zoom level is not remembered. Instead the camera zooms very close to your ship. I wonder if you could fix it to remember the previous zoom level, just like it did before?