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[March] ECM Tiericide

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mnehila
Deliverance.
Arrival.
#21 - 2016-02-11 23:08:09 UTC
I'd like the effect of when you are jammed to change from "not being able to lock" to "every targeting attempt have a chance of failing" (still using the full targeting time) + at the start of the ecm module cycle "every targeted ship have a chance of being unlocked". This would change the on/off feel of ecm to x amount targeting attempts failing and x locks lost, the amount depending on how strong the ecm effect is.

And another crazy idea to make it more interesting, make the direction the ecm is coming from matter, ie, make the ecm effect stronger or only apply in the same direction the ecm ship is. The ecm ship would have to be "behind"/"in line" with the fleet to be effective, and you could escape the effect of the jam by moving "sideways" until the ship you are trying to lock is no longer in a line between you and the ecm ship. This could create a fun positioning game I think :)
Something like this: https://imgur.com/KDX1xda
Michael Oskold
Beyond Good and Evil.
#22 - 2016-02-12 00:21:06 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
keep dumbing down your game for idiots who cant remember which ECM module is against which race.
Why dont you rename "radar" to "amarr", "ladar" to "minmatar" etc.. while you are at it, makes it even easier for rtards.

Or go even one step further and get rid of race names and call them like red, green, yellow and blue maybe? For those who cant deal with race names and mix them together. This would make sure even the least intelligent moron would be able to safely apply right ewar modules onto enemy ships.


says the guy in hoover. lmao
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#23 - 2016-02-12 00:41:49 UTC
This would be a great time to make ECM more unified with the other EWAR variants. ECM is the only module that has different racial types. I think it would be far more valuable to make ECM a single module with racial scripts to bring it in line with SD/TD. I think it would also be beneficial to remove signal amplifiers as no other EWAR has a way to boost effectiveness. Of course removing signal amplifiers would preferably be compensated by a slight buff to ECM strength.

The reason I advocate for these changes is to give ECM ships opportunities to act more like other EWAR ships. Because ECM has racial modules you are driven to fit at least one of each racial ECM module to prevent the case where you are less effective on the battlefield because you are missing a racial jammer. By changing ECM to be a single module with scripts it would allow ECM ships to need fewer ECM modules, and free up slots for tank. This would allow ECM ships to have the capability present in other EWAR ships of being able to fit enough tank to stay on the field. There would still be those who would fit max jammers. They would pay because they would be easy to kill, just as any other EWAR ship that fix max EWAR. A single ECM module with racial scripts would unlock ECM ships that can stay on field and keep fighting, instead of ECM ships that warp in at max range and warp out as soon as they get shot. That's a choice present in every other EWAR ships and should be available to ECM ships.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#24 - 2016-02-12 00:47:08 UTC
if ccp devs were true in listening to what their players want. then RIP out this stupid AS **** mechanic and put in something that isnt rage inducing. a ship with 300 sensor strength vs a 15 strength jam should never EVER EVER EVER JAM. EVER.


nobody here wants to see this crap tiercided, everybody in the entire universe wants to see a new freaking mechanic.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Addison Clark
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2016-02-12 00:52:11 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
This would be a great time to make ECM more unified with the other EWAR variants. ECM is the only module that has different racial types. I think it would be far more valuable to make ECM a single module with racial scripts to bring it in line with SD/TD. I think it would also be beneficial to remove signal amplifiers as no other EWAR has a way to boost effectiveness. Of course removing signal amplifiers would preferably be compensated by a slight buff to ECM strength.

The reason I advocate for these changes is to give ECM ships opportunities to act more like other EWAR ships. Because ECM has racial modules you are driven to fit at least one of each racial ECM module to prevent the case where you are less effective on the battlefield because you are missing a racial jammer. By changing ECM to be a single module with scripts it would allow ECM ships to need fewer ECM modules, and free up slots for tank. This would allow ECM ships to have the capability present in other EWAR ships of being able to fit enough tank to stay on the field. There would still be those who would fit max jammers. They would pay because they would be easy to kill, just as any other EWAR ship that fix max EWAR. A single ECM module with racial scripts would unlock ECM ships that can stay on field and keep fighting, instead of ECM ships that warp in at max range and warp out as soon as they get shot. That's a choice present in every other EWAR ships and should be available to ECM ships.


Honestly this is what I thought would be happening now that Citadal ECM is to be used with racial scripts. Adding this in improves the usability of the module, and enables you to adjust on-the-fly versus being locked in to a certain type.

Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#26 - 2016-02-12 00:54:11 UTC
I wish T2 modules had more interesting names than "something T2".

Though, I do hope you guys at least capitalize RADAR and LADAR properly, as they're acronyms and not words themselves.

All in all, I think you actually managed to not completely ruin ECM like I was afraid would happen. I'm not enthused with the changes, but I'm not too upset by them either.
Gallente Citizen420
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2016-02-12 00:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallente Citizen420
While you're at it, could be please make Gallente ecm modules green? CCPlease

Amarr - yellow
Caldari - blue
Mimmatar scum - red
Gallente master race - another shade of blue!?!?!?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#28 - 2016-02-12 01:11:17 UTC
How long that list is says you should get rid of racial ECM modules. Omni ECM & scripts/ammo if you really really have to keep some form of focusing. Scripts as ammo gives a meaning to specialising to only a single type since you can't keep it up forever as a result. But you don't have to fit different turrets for shooting different races, and you don't have to fit different damps/painters for different races either (The disruptor also should have been universal.). So Omni ECM and some form of ammo lands us back in a sweet spot of common sense & still meaningful choices of what ammo to carry.
Zetakya
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2016-02-12 02:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zetakya
Some thoughts on both ECM & ECCM. Speaking here as a Caldari EWAR pilot. I'll cross-post part of this into the ECCM/SEBO thread as well, for completeness & to make sure the relevant parts are seen by Devs in the right place, but it's not really possible to consider the ECM changes in isolation from the widening of the ECCM availability.

The SEBO fitting reqs just doubled for the same effect. Old F90 was 30% boost, to get that now you need a Tech2, which with the increased fitting costs per module has pushed CPU need from 8 to 16. That's going to be a problem for some fits (thankfully, not mine).

I do like the merging of ECCM with these modules, it makes for a good tactical choice on the field of what to script, rather than a strategic choice before you leave dock.

As for ECM... this is a nerf. Aside from much more common use of ECCM, simply fitting an equivalent strength ECM module will now cost 10 extra CPU per module and require 20 additional cap per cycle per module. While the CPU change doesn't really matter at present (the Rook in particular is already grossly over-specified in that department), it will matter if you ever rebalance the hulls and it is going to make cap stable ECM more difficult, and therefore increase the value of Neuts as an ECM counter. This is especially true given the slot limitations making fitting tank, ECM and now cap mods in mid slots an impossible challenge.

I reiterate all of the calls for scripted ECM to be available. The argument that racial ECM gives a benefit to the side with the better information is a fair one, but I don't think it's sensible for an entire module - or indeed an entire ship - to be rendered useless for the duration of a fleet. Most EWAR pilots already carry refitting tools - usually a Yurt and a full suite of Meta4 racials at present - in order to prevent this eventuality anyway.

Given that, why not implement scripts for ECM, but with a significant "reload" (Install? Firmware Flash? w/e) time? A 60s timer (the same as the deployment time on a Mobile Depot) would be reasonable. You could also implement other types of scripts - one that gives extended range, but without racial enhancements, or one that severely reduces range & nullifies hull bonuses, but increases base strength sharply.

Racial ECMs don't add anything to the game, because you've implemented modules that give us a workaround with a minute of downtime anyway. Just give us the same ability as a native part of the ECM functionality, please.
Alexis Nightwish
#30 - 2016-02-12 02:58:00 UTC
Since I've already read the sebo changes, I can see that these are just the nail in the coffin for ECM. I mean, you're nerfing ECM and at the same time strengthening its counters. Good job. Roll

CCP Fozzie wrote:
For ECM Bust modules, we are adding a new set of faction and officer bursts from the Rogue Drones. We are also rechristening the groups as "Burst Jammers" so that we can more easily distinguish between the two in bonus text.
Another fine example of how you don't actually play the game. Don't know what I'm talking about? Okay, so check this out, ECM Burst modules DO NOT JAM. They only break locks. But you're going to call them "Jammers" now? smh

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

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Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Evan Giants
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2016-02-12 03:04:30 UTC
What will you do regarding ECCM BPO/BPC? Convert them to ECCM Script BPO?
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#32 - 2016-02-12 03:11:38 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
This would be a great time to make ECM more unified with the other EWAR variants. ECM is the only module that has different racial types. I think it would be far more valuable to make ECM a single module with racial scripts to bring it in line with SD/TD. I think it would also be beneficial to remove signal amplifiers as no other EWAR has a way to boost effectiveness. Of course removing signal amplifiers would preferably be compensated by a slight buff to ECM strength.

The reason I advocate for these changes is to give ECM ships opportunities to act more like other EWAR ships. Because ECM has racial modules you are driven to fit at least one of each racial ECM module to prevent the case where you are less effective on the battlefield because you are missing a racial jammer. By changing ECM to be a single module with scripts it would allow ECM ships to need fewer ECM modules, and free up slots for tank. This would allow ECM ships to have the capability present in other EWAR ships of being able to fit enough tank to stay on the field. There would still be those who would fit max jammers. They would pay because they would be easy to kill, just as any other EWAR ship that fix max EWAR. A single ECM module with racial scripts would unlock ECM ships that can stay on field and keep fighting, instead of ECM ships that warp in at max range and warp out as soon as they get shot. That's a choice present in every other EWAR ships and should be available to ECM ships.


Something like this is what I was hoping for.

Make the script take, say, 30s to add or remove from the module. You can prep 1 or 2 ECM modules with scripts that you expect to use, but in the meantime, you roll with multispectral until you think you can spare 30s.

Honestly, having 7000 different ECM modules to juggle is annoying.
Groot Calrissian
Plundering Penguins
Solyaris Chtonium
#33 - 2016-02-12 03:49:05 UTC
As an ECM pilot, and loving the force multiplication factor, I agree that the mechanic is fuxt as it is. Scripted modules would make a ton of sense, and make ECM boats viable in combat, which they currently are not. A reasonable delay to switch scripts would help - and shortening the jam cycle time would be nice for both the recipient and the ECM pilot. However, I think a mechanics overhaul would be appreciated by everyone.

As suggested above, a 'chance to lock' on each target would be a viable mechanic. Re-roll the dice for each attempted lock. Upon successful jam cycle initiation, break lock for on-race script only, but roll dice for target lock even for off-race jams. Reduced cycle time of 10 seconds would give the ECM pilot more options to relocate jams, and even increase the motivation to invest in correctly racial scripts. This makes a significant motivation to utilize the correct on-race script, and makes an interesting fitting decision of fewer scriptable ECM modules (which could be any race with a time penalty to reload) or enough jams to still have a rainbow fit but no more tank than currently. This would also serve to make ECM hulls less predictable as far as how they are fit, and give the players more choice to work with.
Rob Kashuken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-02-12 06:30:47 UTC
As someone who has flown an awful lot of ewar in a previous corp, I'd echo the suggestion given previously that the racial jammers should be abolished, and instead have a single module that is can be scripted to specialise into each race.

This would allow for Caldari ewar pilots to be able to field effective shield tank, whilst not being reliant on their tanking ability to be effectively based on a RNG roll.

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#35 - 2016-02-12 06:44:42 UTC
Interesting, was hoping for something more along the lines of scripting to alter the ECM type - particularly after reading the sensor boost and ECCM merger.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Cyrek Ohaya
Blazing Sun Group
#36 - 2016-02-12 06:48:59 UTC
ECM already took a big hit when they allowed the victim to know WHEN exactly is the ECM effect going to wear down. Give it time to see how this affects players in general instead of giving out mindless changes every month.
Mnemosyne Ab aeterno
The Huskarl's
#37 - 2016-02-12 07:59:32 UTC
As you are now buffing ECCM please get rid of the Ladar, Radar, Mag and the other one and replace it with just the multispec and have faction scripts that we can fit with a timer to change the scripts e.g. 4min between changes per mod
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#38 - 2016-02-12 08:34:24 UTC
Addison Clark wrote:


Honestly this is what I thought would be happening now that Citadal ECM is to be used with racial scripts. Adding this in improves the usability of the module, and enables you to adjust on-the-fly versus being locked in to a certain type.



Tell that to scripted combo of missle/tracking disruptors.

Muahahaha.


Carry a set of 16 modules and a depot bro. That is valuable gameplay. I enjoyed it already while flight-testing the the CNI_wreck_of_the_ship.
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#39 - 2016-02-12 08:42:32 UTC
No Caldari navy ECM?
Renfus
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#40 - 2016-02-12 09:29:35 UTC
Instead of having 5 separate ecm modules.
How about having 1 module that has the same stats as the multi spec jammer when unscripted.
And have racial scripts..
Allowing ecm ships to change scripts on the fly..

Our would that be to OP somehow?

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