These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[March] ECM Tiericide

First post
Author
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#81 - 2016-03-01 18:45:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
The people who hate ECM hate it because you get locked out for at least 20 seconds, even perma-jammed. This makes your ship useless, etc. It also takes no skill to use.

My suggestion:

  1. No RNG. You hit them with an ECM, they're jammed; just like RSD, and TD
  2. 4 second jam, 20 second cycle time
  3. Scripts to increase range or reduce cycle time, at a cost of jam time.


Balancing Benefits:

  1. You can't perma-jam something unless you stack ECM, preventing you from getting tank and ECM
  2. If you don't time your modules properly (player skill / presence of mind) you won't lock out anything efficiently
  3. the long cycle time means you must commit to your decision to jam something (again, player skill). AKA tactical decisions.
  4. due to the short duration, ECM pilots are more vulnerable to tackles, meaning they must be more careful


RSD buffs snipers; you simply cannot engage a sniper if you have RSD on you. You may as well be locked out.
TD buffs sped tanks; you cannot engage a speed tank while someone has TD on you. You may as well be locked out.
ECM provides broad spectrum lockout, at a cost of being a tactical decision and much harder to use.

Different methods of the same goal.

Edit:
This also completely removes / negates the need to merge ECCM and SeBo. A SeBo can increase sensor resolution, making lock time faster, giving you time to instapop the low tank ECM ship. ECCM can effectively go away, and a SeBo script can be used as another tactical decision (range script for RSD, res script for ECM - heck you could even add a tracking script and do away with tracking mods). You want tactical decisions, there you have it.
Beldantazar
Empyrean Acolytes
#82 - 2016-03-01 19:25:33 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
The people who hate ECM hate it because you get locked out for at least 20 seconds, even perma-jammed. This makes your ship useless, etc. It also takes no skill to use.

My suggestion:

  1. No RNG. You hit them with an ECM, they're jammed; just like RSD, and TD
  2. 4 second jam, 20 second cycle time
  3. Scripts to increase range or reduce cycle time, at a cost of jam time.


Balancing Benefits:

  1. You can't perma-jam something unless you stack ECM, preventing you from getting tank and ECM
  2. If you don't time your modules properly (player skill / presence of mind) you won't lock out anything efficiently
  3. the long cycle time means you must commit to your decision to jam something (again, player skill). AKA tactical decisions.
  4. due to the short duration, ECM pilots are more vulnerable to tackles, meaning they must be more careful


RSD buffs snipers; you simply cannot engage a sniper if you have RSD on you. You may as well be locked out.
TD buffs sped tanks; you cannot engage a speed tank while someone has TD on you. You may as well be locked out.
ECM provides broad spectrum lockout, at a cost of being a tactical decision and much harder to use.

Different methods of the same goal.

Edit:
This also completely removes / negates the need to merge ECCM and SeBo. A SeBo can increase sensor resolution, making lock time faster, giving you time to instapop the low tank ECM ship. ECCM can effectively go away, and a SeBo script can be used as another tactical decision (range script for RSD, res script for ECM - heck you could even add a tracking script and do away with tracking mods). You want tactical decisions, there you have it.


I agree that the RNG is a weird mechanic, but since turrets also have it, it's not really that weird (though i do think having falloff for the ecm might be an interesting idea). On the other hand, if you think it takes no skill to use, i would say that you are smoking something. That said, this is an interesting idea, but it would definitely require the caldari ewar ships to get bonuses to reduce cycle time.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#83 - 2016-03-01 20:01:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
Beldantazar wrote:

I agree that the RNG is a weird mechanic, but since turrets also have it, it's not really that weird (though i do think having falloff for the ecm might be an interesting idea). On the other hand, if you think it takes no skill to use, i would say that you are smoking something. That said, this is an interesting idea, but it would definitely require the caldari ewar ships to get bonuses to reduce cycle time.



ECM itself requires absolutely no skill... target, activate, laugh. I do it in griffins on corp roams while we're killing billion isk ships. I'm training for the Falcon now, because it looks like sexy fun times. I want EWAR to be viable, but I also want it to be balanced.

I agree that Caldari EWAR ships would require some kind of ECM bonus, so how about:

(ECM str) / (Sensor Str) * Multiplier * Cycle Time = Jam Time

So say:
5.5 ECM / 20 Sensor * 0.75 Multi * 20s Cycle = 4.125 Second Jam

That way Caldari EWAR retain their ECM strength traits. The multiplier is added to make tweaking to an "acceptable" jam time simple.

Edit:

One vulnerability that I just realized is that with ECM, cheap ships could very well "lock out" battleships and other ships with long lock times even if the actual jam time was very low.

There would need to be some kind of resistance to overcome.... perhaps require a minimum of 10-15% ECM/Sensor. Meet that and you jam, miss that and you don't jam. Avoid the RNG.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#84 - 2016-03-04 10:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Old Pervert wrote:
Beldantazar wrote:

I agree that the RNG is a weird mechanic, but since turrets also have it, it's not really that weird (though i do think having falloff for the ecm might be an interesting idea). On the other hand, if you think it takes no skill to use, i would say that you are smoking something. That said, this is an interesting idea, but it would definitely require the caldari ewar ships to get bonuses to reduce cycle time.



ECM itself requires absolutely no skill... target, activate, laugh. I do it in griffins on corp roams while we're killing billion isk ships. I'm training for the Falcon now, because it looks like sexy fun times. I want EWAR to be viable, but I also want it to be balanced.




I take it you don't fly ECM its the most skill intensive e-war in the game

its not show up, lock, jam this is generally only the case when you have a crap tone of jams and why i think it needs the stacking penalty i mentioned before.

for one you should never have more Green jams then you have targets. you also need to know when to activate your next jam or hold it in case something else comes. you need to know when its worth using an off racial jam. you need to know when to start aligning and when to warp. once you start working with damps it gets even more complex and none of this even touches the pre-flight fitting.

and when they do work they are no stronger than properly used damps
Lane Wyeth-XXVI
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2016-03-07 21:48:59 UTC
I love how the first page is a ton of people complaining about ecms being too strong or unfair but I can tell they dont fly ecms

Any good fleet will primary a ecm boat as it can disrupt a large amount of dps (fly a griffin in a fleet a few times and see)

Ecms are suppose to be as powerful as they are because there is that chance to them, no other ewar can fail having to wait 20 secs to hopefully jam the target you missed when you are (hopefully) being primaried by the opposing force

As well as ecms being rather lacking flown on a nonbonused hull, the ecm boats themselves are very squishy and can be popped easily

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen:
“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#86 - 2016-03-07 22:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
Lane Wyeth-XXVI wrote:
In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen:
“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”


I was looking everywhere for this quote, thank you Big smile

I agree mostly about the ECM problem has now, ecm can be applied or not, sometimes work and sometimes dont, but any tracking disruptor, energy nos or neut or sensor dampener will work as soon as the target is locked and never stop until death of the ships, ships that can for the most part tank and do ewar, while the ecm ship is sometimes useful, sometimes useless and can die easily.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”

Dantaniel Tsukaya
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2016-03-08 21:36:16 UTC
I'd love a small mini-game coupled with the ECM module. Something similiar too hacking exploration sites but smaller.


Then you have too be in control of your surroundings, it becomes harder than just "push button and wait" AND it would give the opponents a better chance of surviving while the ecm pilot has to multitask much more while affected by adrenaline and any possible threats from victims mates.
Agent Skie
Blackstone and Fairfield Transuniversal
Sentinels of Sukanan Alliance
#88 - 2016-03-09 21:25:23 UTC
I agree with many here about the Racial type argument, however its not so much that u would need to know before hand who u will be fighting so to fit the right module. That mechanic I think is too much to ask of most new people and smaller groups. and It usually means the default is to use a multi-spectrum.

I realize CCP have reams of logs showing I'm wrong and that people actually do use racial in fights, but I'm sure that is mostly because the majority of the numbers are from big alliances fighting other big alliances who already know what their ship doctrine is, same for ECCM, etc.. There is more than one way to interpret many of these charts we get shown of how often things are used in the game.

But my suggestion is to make virtually all 'Assistance' modules (like drone damage, drone navigation, Eccm, ECM, Weapon enhancement modules, etc) to be scriptable. This would do things like:

Allow one Jammer/tracking disruptor type Module to be fitted and like ammo they can change the script to match any race or jam/disruption type. And with no script would be multispectrum. and like ammo various tiers of script could have bonus to cap, cpu use, strength , etc.

replace all Drone mods with one module that gets its effect thru use of scripts that allow bonuses that all the mods have now - IE. Damage, tracking, etc., This would work especially in well in the drones that don't get much use now, like web, target painting drones, etc.

Dropping various modules in the game, that now have many versions, replacing them with one mod that uses scripts would also make it easy to add new effects to the game down the road - just introduce a new script into the game - such as when using ECM drones u could boost their strength, damage, Control range, Speed, DPS, range, racial type of ECM, as well as many new bonus or effects not thought of yet - just by switching scripts. So instead of dropping various tiers of modules as loot, it would drop various scripts.

I know there are (old) reasons for having Module Tiers and this idea may cause me to be trolled, but on the positive side give it some thought as to how you would use swapping scripts in combat as the nature of the combat changes from beginning to end of a fight - and how many new tactics would be available with a feature such as this. It would also save some slots for fitting other things and the more modules u have the stronger the effects u can do or the more u could do at one time.

Just my 2-cents worth on the idea
Tzuko1
The All-Seeing Eye
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#89 - 2016-03-09 23:09:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzuko1
We've testing the new ECM modules and its bugged. Before the patch once you jemmed someone it was a full circle of the module on the target once it wasnt jamming it was Grey. Now its totally random, you cant tell if its works or not. The modules works totally random on showing u jamming or not. We tried this with 3 different people and the feedback on your jamm worked or not is totally bugged. Please CCP fix it !
J Connrad
Buzzard Bait and Salvage VLLC
#90 - 2016-03-10 04:14:32 UTC
Tzuko1 wrote:
We've testing the new ECM modules and its bugged. Before the patch once you jemmed someone it was a full circle of the module on the target once it wasnt jamming it was Grey. Now its totally random, you cant tell if its works or not. The modules works totally random on showing u jamming or not. We tried this with 3 different people and the feedback on your jamm worked or not is totally bugged. Please CCP fix it !



Same here
Tiffany Thorn
The Brothel Cartel
#91 - 2016-03-10 07:40:17 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
if ccp devs were true in listening to what their players want. then RIP out this stupid AS **** mechanic and put in something that isnt rage inducing. a ship with 300 sensor strength vs a 15 strength jam should never EVER EVER EVER JAM. EVER.


nobody here wants to see this crap tiercided, everybody in the entire universe wants to see a new freaking mechanic.

Stop. Just stop.

Not everyone wants what you want. Not everyone wants this mechanic removed. Just you and every other ******** eJock and DudeBro who are too damn stupid to understand anything other than "DEE PEE ESS!"

What I want is for my 250mil T2 ship with any tank or weapons, to actually have a guarantee of functioning when I activate my modules.

Come back when your shiny ship has to roll on a stupid RNG table, which is NOT in your favor, every time you activate any of your guns, only to find out that you don't get to do anything for 20 secs while you wait for another chance to roll on the table again.

Until then, spare us from your ignorant brain-dead rants.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#92 - 2016-03-10 19:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Old Pervert wrote:
The people who hate ECM hate it because you get locked out for at least 20 seconds, even perma-jammed. This makes your ship useless, etc. It also takes no skill to use.

My suggestion:

  1. No RNG. You hit them with an ECM, they're jammed; just like RSD, and TD
  2. 4 second jam, 20 second cycle time
  3. Scripts to increase range or reduce cycle time, at a cost of jam time.


Balancing Benefits:

  1. You can't perma-jam something unless you stack ECM, preventing you from getting tank and ECM
  2. If you don't time your modules properly (player skill / presence of mind) you won't lock out anything efficiently
  3. the long cycle time means you must commit to your decision to jam something (again, player skill). AKA tactical decisions.
  4. due to the short duration, ECM pilots are more vulnerable to tackles, meaning they must be more careful


RSD buffs snipers; you simply cannot engage a sniper if you have RSD on you. You may as well be locked out.
TD buffs sped tanks; you cannot engage a speed tank while someone has TD on you. You may as well be locked out.
ECM provides broad spectrum lockout, at a cost of being a tactical decision and much harder to use.

Different methods of the same goal.

Edit:
This also completely removes / negates the need to merge ECCM and SeBo. A SeBo can increase sensor resolution, making lock time faster, giving you time to instapop the low tank ECM ship. ECCM can effectively go away, and a SeBo script can be used as another tactical decision (range script for RSD, res script for ECM - heck you could even add a tracking script and do away with tracking mods). You want tactical decisions, there you have it.



I agree - but there would be a flood of tears if the "perma-damps" changed to being effective for 4 seconds followed by a 20 second cool down .

Maybe even apply the logic to the "perma-Tracking disruptors" so while being orbited by a kite I get shoot with normal tracking for 20 seconds followed by 4 seconds of tracking loss.

When you look at how the other e-war mods work ECM is a bit of a poor cousin.
Tho the stacking ECM for perma jam sounds nice... click 4 sec jam, click 4 second jam , click 4 second jam, 5 clicks and you perma jam anything - where's my Falcon with all those mid slots
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2016-03-10 19:16:46 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
The people who hate ECM hate it because you get locked out for at least 20 seconds, even perma-jammed. This makes your ship useless, etc. It also takes no skill to use.

My suggestion:

  1. No RNG. You hit them with an ECM, they're jammed; just like RSD, and TD
  2. 4 second jam, 20 second cycle time
  3. Scripts to increase range or reduce cycle time, at a cost of jam time.



3 ECM module cycling on a 7 second delay from each others will be just as rage inducing to people with that system. A falcon would probably be able to fit 4 and leave you with 4 x 1 second period of availability on your targetting system. How incredibly fun.
master robbery
Trillium Invariant
Honorable Third Party
#94 - 2016-03-12 00:16:52 UTC
Starry Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#95 - 2016-03-13 11:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Starry Caldari
As a beginner player, ECM drones are my only hope of survival when I undock from a high sec station and a giant "big S" shadow of a barn roof (Svipul that is) engulfs me in flames. ECM drones give me a faint chance to fight back and die with dignity.
For those who are complaining that they have to carry ECCM modules against ECM attack, well, guess what, I am also not happy to waste my low slots with warp core stabilizers if there weren't any scrambled egg modules out there. Yeah, that’s how things roll in New Eden, get used to it and stop complaining about my lil ECM pets. (Come here sweetie, come, here is your Fedo paste, nom nom, who’s the good boy? awwww! Yes, you are!)
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#96 - 2016-03-15 18:46:12 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Why not remove all this racial stuff and make ECM scriptables? Especially now that ECCMs are integrated into a widespread module that is sensor boosters...



Suggestion:

Not really expecting it since it's way more dev-intensive than tweaking numbers, but what about sensor strength turning into a ressource much like capacitor ? With the same passive regeneration curve.

Remove the random element of ECMs, have them slowly take away chunks of the target's sensor strength until it's unable to lock. With sebos and remote sebos acting as "logi" on your sensor strength.

No more randomness. More fairness for both the ECM (ensured efficiency, albeit after some time) and its victim (fair time to kill the ECM or "broadcast for ECCM").

your plan is interesting, but with how your idea works, odds are a good ecm ship can do this while a newer player would get blown to spacedust.