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[February] Force Auxiliary Skills

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ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#201 - 2016-02-09 13:58:26 UTC
just out of curiosity, are the new fighter skills correctly priced? light fighters seem to be more expensive than the actual fighters skill at 100 mill same with the support fighters at 100 mill but fighters skill is at 50 mill? was this intentional or a mistake?
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#202 - 2016-02-09 14:14:17 UTC
As already stated; should have waited until the ships are ready and changed tactical logistics reconfiguration to the force auxiliary skill. The way this was handled was ham handed and silly. You guys have done this reworking skills thing multiple times now and done it decently... why screw us over all the sudden?

Not today spaghetti.
MR Spleen
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#203 - 2016-02-09 14:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: MR Spleen
Rather than just giving a blanket refund of those skill points have it come up as a pop up asking would you like to refund these skill points or making it an option on the skill queue somehow.

Also what happens to those pilots currently sat in a pos somewhere in there carriers or supers do they lose there sp?

Join IAPUB in game if you want 0.0 pvp.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#204 - 2016-02-09 14:22:30 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
" you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today".


Which amount to **** all since CCP's rule was always if you can fly ship X today, you will be able to fly it tomorrow. If you can fly an Caldari carrier today, you will be able to fly it come citadel unless YOU CHOOSE to use the option provided to spec out of it.

If your gonna cry about the "wasted" and "useless" skill for a dedicated X pilot, then remember this is the exact same way they handled to Orca skill shuffle where people were "stuck" with barge skill for example. CCP is following their usual rules quite to the letter in this case but people expect them to deviate from the usual procedure.

It's not unheard of for people to be left with non optimal skills. As was told to Orca pilots back then, your skill are not useless. You just decide not to use them.


but the ship i can fly now will not be here when the citadel release hits its getting cut in half. one half is just keeping the same name and model


Yes it will be. If you had an Archon, you will still be able to fly an archon. If you could fly a chimera, you will still be able to fly a chimera. People could still fly their geddons after the change to a neut platform even if the way they used to use it was no longer functionnal.
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#205 - 2016-02-09 14:27:45 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
As already stated; should have waited until the ships are ready and changed tactical logistics reconfiguration to the force auxiliary skill. The way this was handled was ham handed and silly. You guys have done this reworking skills thing multiple times now and done it decently... why screw us over all the sudden?


If I had to guess, I'd say that the fact that these changes come at the same time with the new skill-extractors/injectors is not purely accidental...
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#206 - 2016-02-09 14:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
2.2B ISK and about eight months training to get back to where I was yesterday. Thank you very much, CCP. I hope my tears taste delicious.

Edit - I was wrong. Having plugged in all the new skills, with a full set of +5 implants, it will take 333 days to get back to where I was.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#207 - 2016-02-09 14:36:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Yes it will be. If you had an Archon, you will still be able to fly an archon. If you could fly a chimera, you will still be able to fly a chimera. People could still fly their geddons after the change to a neut platform even if the way they used to use it was no longer functionnal.


What are you even arguing for? T1 ships, frigates and cruisers share dps and rep roles on the same frigate or cruiser skill. Why cant T1 carrier?

Why do we need a new skill? The answer is, we dont.

CCP needs the new skill to peddle its SP extractors.

You cant argue that this shake up is fair and well thought out when the actual objective is to get people to part with more money than the monthly subscription that they already pay.

I hope for CCPs sake that this cynical cash grab doesnt persuade too many people reevaluate their monthly outgoings.

If this works out for CCP, whats to stop them from splitting roles in frigate and cruiser hulls by creating a new T1 cruiser logistics skill 'Force Aux Cruiser. Force Aux Frigate', to force people to use even more SP injectors or be left behind.

Then people like you can argue that the new RR cruisers are completely different to the old ones and that we are just being brats for expecting to be able to do things we could before the change.

CCP is in a position where they have to find ways to increase revenue because of incompetent business practices and unrealistic business expectations across multiple platforms and titles. Or, they could refocus on what makes them money already and not alienate the currently loyal customers with moves like this.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#208 - 2016-02-09 14:49:17 UTC
I think at this point the best thing to do is to change the price of force auxiliary to around 100 mil. The anal punishing I can take from not getting SP to fly both and I'll chalk it up to being a masochist and playing this game in the first place.

Oh right it's too late to change because you didn't announce anything until the day it came out.

Not today spaghetti.
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#209 - 2016-02-09 15:05:10 UTC
MR Spleen wrote:
Rather than just giving a blanket refund of those skill points have it come up as a pop up asking would you like to refund these skill points or making it an option on the skill queue somehow.

Also what happens to those pilots currently sat in a pos somewhere in there carriers or supers do they lose there sp?


Imagine the poor pilots that took a break for a couple of months and are not subbing their accounts at the moment of "transition" for whatever reasons...

You get back from a break and you've been screwed over with no f'king chance of doing what you used to do (triage) unless you invest at least 2 months of training-time plus a ton of ISK... boy would I get angry.

I don't know how I would react... but I'm absolutely certain that I wouldn't just say "let me just invest 6PLEX in skill injectors to be were i used be" ...
RuriHoshino
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#210 - 2016-02-09 15:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: RuriHoshino
Remind me why FAXes were necessary at all? If you wanted to change the way fighter mechanics work then change the way fighter mechanics work, maybe add a highslot Tactical Drone Reconfiguration module that's required to use the new features so you can't do triage and Homeworld squadrons at the same time. OR if you must introduce a new ship, keep it as a class of carrier so that people who'd trained into triage could just go sit in a different hull and do the same job. Or leave the current carriers as logistics ships but remove their fighters and make the new class of carrier the tactical fighter carrier. Truly we are limited only by our imaginations!

Instead we get these ugly as sin hobbling half-stations that cost a minimum 500m to sit in on top of whatever they cost to build and sell. I think I'd be less upset honestly if they at least looked good, but they just don't. CCP has done good (sometimes fantastic, even iconic) spaceship design, but it looks like they sent the art team packing and gave the job to the janitorial staff.

And requiring people to pay money, real or otherwise, to continue performing in a role that they'd been fully trained into before these changes is simply punitive, for no reason at all. It smells exactly like some back-room monetization scheme, timing this to coincide with skill injectors. It might be the most senseless thing CCP has done in a long time.
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#211 - 2016-02-09 15:29:30 UTC
Oh, lay off the tinfoilhat "monetization" paranoia already. The reason carriers are being split into to different ship groups has been explained endlessly (tldr: current carriers are too good and can do too many things). You don't agree with those reasons? Fine. But stop pretending CCP has some sinister agenda behind this, other than overall game balance.

Now your logi platforms won't be able to do DPS at the same time. Cry me a river. I don't see my Oneiros dishing out dps, either. And yes, I have serious amounts of isk and sps invested in carriers, too. I'll adapt.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#212 - 2016-02-09 15:41:12 UTC
Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly.

You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#213 - 2016-02-09 15:45:58 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly.

You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat.


No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform.
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#214 - 2016-02-09 15:46:49 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly.

You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat.


Your point is? If you fly triage carriers now and don't care about the dps, do the following:

- get the new fax skill
- when this goes live move all your carrier skills to fax
- swap carrier for a fax

Done. You're now able to fly triage again, and if you weren't using dps before, you won't need it now either.

Sure, you'll need to buy one more new skill, but that's pocket change for capship pilots. No extra training time required.
D3m0n sam
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#215 - 2016-02-09 15:47:42 UTC
Alex Harumichi wrote:
Oh, lay off the tinfoilhat "monetization" paranoia already. The reason carriers are being split into to different ship groups has been explained endlessly (tldr: current carriers are too good and can do too many things). You don't agree with those reasons? Fine. But stop pretending CCP has some sinister agenda behind this, other than overall game balance.

Now your logi platforms won't be able to do DPS at the same time. Cry me a river. I don't see my Oneiros dishing out dps, either. And yes, I have serious amounts of isk and sps invested in carriers, too. I'll adapt.



Then explain to me why they released this information not even a day before Patch day. So even if people complained they couldn't pull it from the build. And worst thing of all it's the patch with extractors. Even if it's speculation there was defiantly a market ploy.

Now the builds live and FAX SB are seeded they won't exactly refund everyone who brought the skill to fix this ****.

The way this was handled was a ******* shambles, hopefully there will be a dev blog to damage control this situation.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#216 - 2016-02-09 15:47:47 UTC
Well one good thing has come out of this. My expected 14+ million SP pool. Rather handy to have tbh, thanks.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#217 - 2016-02-09 15:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Alex Harumichi wrote:
Oh, lay off the tinfoilhat "monetization" paranoia already. The reason carriers are being split into to different ship groups has been explained endlessly (tldr: current carriers are too good and can do too many things). You don't agree with those reasons? Fine. But stop pretending CCP has some sinister agenda behind this, other than overall game balance.

Now your logi platforms won't be able to do DPS at the same time. Cry me a river. I don't see my Oneiros dishing out dps, either. And yes, I have serious amounts of isk and sps invested in carriers, too. I'll adapt.


No one is complaining about the split between dps and logistics carriers. Literally nobody.

People are complaining because of the insertion of a level 14 skill that will act as a barrier to peoples ability to perform the roles that they could before.

The parallel introduction of SP extractors/injectors at a time when people are looking at training 1-4 level 14 skill (+the fighter skills) to be able to perform the same dps and rep roles that they can now, is a clear cash grab.

There is zero justification for a new skill. Just as there would be zero justification to introduce a T1 frigate logistics skill, or a T1 cruiser logistics skill.

The racial carrier skill could have easily covered the FAX hull along with the DPS carrier hull. Drone support skills would have covered the performance of the DPS role, and Tactical logistics recon would have covered the performance of the FAX.

Simple, everyone retains the ability to do what they can now. New players are no further behind the older players. The only disadvantage is to CCP, who would lose the leverage on people tempted by the SP extractor racket.
D3m0n sam
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#218 - 2016-02-09 15:49:07 UTC
Alex Harumichi wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly.

You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat.


Your point is? If you fly triage carriers now and don't care about the dps, do the following:

- get the new fax skill
- when this goes live move all your carrier skills to fax
- swap carrier for a fax

Done. You're now able to fly triage again, and if you weren't using dps before, you won't need it now either.

Sure, you'll need to buy one more new skill, but that's pocket change for capship pilots. No extra training time required.



So what about people that want to do both. We now need to spend 30+ per race for FAX and then more for the drone skills.

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#219 - 2016-02-09 15:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly.

You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat.


No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform.



That's neither here nor there. Cruiser V lets me jump from DPS to logi.

Carrier V used to too. Well, it would if I could use triage, but you take my point.

The lack of specialised carrier hulls creates a demand for a new hull and changes to old one certainly, it absolutely does not create a need for new skill as well.


The bottom line is there is absolutely no need for a new skill, certainly not one at that cost.


Why the heck should I be able to do everything I can today with my carrier after the changes, but my logi bros need to pay out? That's bullshit and you know it.
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#220 - 2016-02-09 15:57:19 UTC
D3m0n sam wrote:
Alex Harumichi wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly.

You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat.


Your point is? If you fly triage carriers now and don't care about the dps, do the following:

- get the new fax skill
- when this goes live move all your carrier skills to fax
- swap carrier for a fax

Done. You're now able to fly triage again, and if you weren't using dps before, you won't need it now either.

Sure, you'll need to buy one more new skill, but that's pocket change for capship pilots. No extra training time required.



So what about people that want to do both. We now need to spend 30+ per race for FAX and then more for the drone skills.



In that case you'll have to invest in new ships and new skills (so isk + training time, yes). I get that it can suck (hell, I'm in for that haul myself).

But consider the options (from CCP point of view).

a) Use existing Carriers skill for both Carriers and FAXes. That seems clunky and doesn't make much sense... why do Dreads need their own skill in that case? Why do the other capships? Why should these two hulls (with very different roles) use same base skill? It doesn't really fit into existing game structure, imho.

b) Give everyone with existing Carrier skill the equivalent amount of Fax skill levels. While I'm sure players would love that, I'm not 100% sure that's reasonable -- it would magically generate a ton of new sp for players, and give existing carrier pilots a frankly unfair bonus compared to everyone else.

I think CCP's current line (force people to choose between the new dps carriers and the new logi faxes) makes sense. You decide which carrier role is more important to you, and you get to keep that with minimal tweaking. The other one you need to invest in.

Just my opinion, of course.