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[February] Force Auxiliary Skills

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Tiberian Deci
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2016-02-09 01:03:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots.

Because otherwise those pilots lost access to existing hulls that they could use.

This change to carriers is more akin to the mining frigates & cruisers losing all their bonuses to mining and the new mining frigate being introduced. Where CCP did not award skill points because the hulls still existed and could still be flown.

And I sure don't remember lots of experienced people screaming that it wasn't fair that they didn't get given the new mining frigate at V. As I said before I am neutral, but historical precedent of this sort of change actually is that people have to train the new hull.


I wasn't around then, but I'd like to hypothesize that there was less screaming because it wasn't a x14 skill for the hull with x10 and x12 skills you could train for 1/2 of the utility of the hull, plus another 15-ish million SP for the drone skills for the other 1/2 of the utility of the hull.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#142 - 2016-02-09 01:05:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Ashterothi wrote:

I really like that argument, but I am afraid I don't think it quite applies either. The mining frigates were new ships designed to fill a roll that was not being filled by the T1s, and freed up those hulls to be used for something else entirely. The difference is there is no specific skill to fly the racial T1s, and so the number of people who would feel "cheated" by this, as opposed to being happy to train the new skill, would be very very low.

I still see this as being far closer to the destroyer and BC split.

I really can't agree with that.
There was a T1 frigate bonused with mining. And people did use them
There were T1 cruisers bonused with mining.
The skill split removed all that ability from that 'skill' and put it into a totally new skill with a totally new ship.

This is exactly the situation that is happening with the Carriers.
The two differences are the Sp involved is a lot more, and the split is 50/50 while the T1 racial skills kept most of their 'attributes' as there was more than one hull the skill gave access to to begin with.
But the actual situation is the same, just a difference in details.

So going by historical example CCP is actually being more generous than in the past already by allowing people to respec to the new skill (or to something else entirely even).
Sure the SP involved is more, but a larger SP number does not change the principle, it just changes it from newbies being affected to vets being affected. And suddenly we see lots of screaming this time.
Zealot Ghasha
Doomheim
#143 - 2016-02-09 01:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Zealot Ghasha
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

So going by historical example CCP is actually being more generous than in the past already by allowing people to respec to the new skill (or to something else entirely even).
Sure the SP involved is more, but a larger SP number does not change the principle, it just changes it from newbies being affected to vets being affected. And suddenly we see lots of screaming this time.


So generous that they will allow me to spend god knows how much money to move drone and fighter skills out of a triage pilot, or rep and triage skills out of a dps pilot. In other words, I'm expected to either spend minimum 5-6 months just training skills to do what I can already do, or I'm expected to just "get over" having millions of SP sitting there useless because the carrier can't use capital RR, triage and such. yeah, that's very generous to their back pockets, I see what you mean.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#144 - 2016-02-09 01:55:44 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:

I really like that argument, but I am afraid I don't think it quite applies either. The mining frigates were new ships designed to fill a roll that was not being filled by the T1s, and freed up those hulls to be used for something else entirely. The difference is there is no specific skill to fly the racial T1s, and so the number of people who would feel "cheated" by this, as opposed to being happy to train the new skill, would be very very low.

I still see this as being far closer to the destroyer and BC split.

I really can't agree with that.
There was a T1 frigate bonused with mining. And people did use them
There were T1 cruisers bonused with mining.
The skill split removed all that ability from that 'skill' and put it into a totally new skill with a totally new ship.

This is exactly the situation that is happening with the Carriers.
The two differences are the Sp involved is a lot more, and the split is 50/50 while the T1 racial skills kept most of their 'attributes' as there was more than one hull the skill gave access to to begin with.
But the actual situation is the same, just a difference in details.

So going by historical example CCP is actually being more generous than in the past already by allowing people to respec to the new skill (or to something else entirely even).
Sure the SP involved is more, but a larger SP number does not change the principle, it just changes it from newbies being affected to vets being affected. And suddenly we see lots of screaming this time.


except that was just one new skill if i only had to train FAX i would not be upset but i have to train four more skills one for each race so rather than taking a month to get back where i was i now need to train about 8 months

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#145 - 2016-02-09 02:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis
So uh, am I understanding correctly that, after spending the past ~8 months training this character for an Archon (paid with 2 $60 payments), I'm about to have my largest SP sink split? I planned on having Archon Mastery IV (the recommended minimum skills iirc) by Pandemic Horde's 1-year, but for the equivalent capabilities it looks like I'd have to spend.. how many more months on training?

Quote:
you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships


Seems to conflict with what's being said on reddit.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#146 - 2016-02-09 02:45:58 UTC
I tried to make sense of it, this is the best I came up with

http://i.imgur.com/h4Oqqzo.png

c/d?
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#147 - 2016-02-09 03:26:22 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:

I really like that argument, but I am afraid I don't think it quite applies either. The mining frigates were new ships designed to fill a roll that was not being filled by the T1s, and freed up those hulls to be used for something else entirely. The difference is there is no specific skill to fly the racial T1s, and so the number of people who would feel "cheated" by this, as opposed to being happy to train the new skill, would be very very low.

I still see this as being far closer to the destroyer and BC split.

I really can't agree with that.
There was a T1 frigate bonused with mining. And people did use them
There were T1 cruisers bonused with mining.
The skill split removed all that ability from that 'skill' and put it into a totally new skill with a totally new ship.

This is exactly the situation that is happening with the Carriers.
The two differences are the Sp involved is a lot more, and the split is 50/50 while the T1 racial skills kept most of their 'attributes' as there was more than one hull the skill gave access to to begin with.
But the actual situation is the same, just a difference in details.

So going by historical example CCP is actually being more generous than in the past already by allowing people to respec to the new skill (or to something else entirely even).
Sure the SP involved is more, but a larger SP number does not change the principle, it just changes it from newbies being affected to vets being affected. And suddenly we see lots of screaming this time.


I will agree that your argument is very apt at proving that CCP has precedent to go this route, but this isn't about what they are allowed to do, it is about what it means for how they make decisions. I personally believe the wiser move would have been to give out the SP to the players who really want to play with the new toys and swing for the fences with the expansion. This move seems to diminish the momentum in a really disappointing way (though by no means does is negate the excitement for what is coming).

I didn't say they couldn't do it, or that they shouldn't do it, only that I am troubled as to the potential underlying _why_ of the decision.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Asher Amazingness
State War Academy
Caldari State
#148 - 2016-02-09 04:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Asher Amazingness
I'm really excited at the prospect of either paying tons of real money to extract all my now-useless drone skills and reinject them at a huge loss (if I go triage) or paying tons of real money to extract my now-useless Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration 5 and subcapital/Capital Remote Armor/Shield/Capacitor 5 skills and reinject them at a huge loss (if I go carrier) or having to train 7 months to be able to fly all 4 racial triage + carriers again (which I can do today but not tomorrow), or having simply wasted ~8 million skillpoints on one or the other of the above set of skills if I don't extract them at all.

And since I have 2 perfect triage pilots I get to make this choice and potentially pay for extractors twice, what emergent gameplay.

I never understood the vitriol directed toward CCP before but wow, I'm feeling the hate on this change. So much for "if you can fly it now, you'll always be able to fly it" or whatever that BS was. This change is an insultingly transparent money grab and it looks like a lot of it is intended to come from capital pilots.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#149 - 2016-02-09 04:18:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots.

yeah that was pretty dumb, glad they're doing it differently this time
scorpion orpio
Perkone
Caldari State
#150 - 2016-02-09 04:45:25 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Sakido Cain wrote:
OK, we will be refunded the racial carrier skill points, so if we decide we hate the new carrier changes we aren't stuck in it... cool. What about the Triage skill? If we decide we don't wanna go back into either of these ships because we don't like them, should we not also be able to reallocate the skill points that can only be used with this ship?



Skills that need refunding.

Racial Carriers
Fighters
Fighter Bombers
Capital Energy Transfers
Capital Remove Armor Repair
Capital Remote Shield Repair
Capital Remote Energy Transfer
Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration

TBH, with such a shake up of capitals, id also suggest that;

Advances Spaceship Command
Capital Ships
Racial Dreadnoughts
Capital Armor Repair
Capital Shield Repair
Capital Weapon Systems (multiple)
Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration

...should be refunded too.

Allow people to make the choice where they want to land in the new meta. Its lame enough that you are taking a role that many of us can currently perform and making us train another 40 days at the cost of 500m. Without also binding us on decisions we made on an out of date meta.


If not this then a full refund of skills.

Also, Crosi for CSM!
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#151 - 2016-02-09 04:48:55 UTC
so i guess, "HTFU" is not applicable this time eh? Lol

Just Add Water
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#152 - 2016-02-09 05:00:10 UTC
Tiberian Deci wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots.

Because otherwise those pilots lost access to existing hulls that they could use.

This change to carriers is more akin to the mining frigates & cruisers losing all their bonuses to mining and the new mining frigate being introduced. Where CCP did not award skill points because the hulls still existed and could still be flown.

And I sure don't remember lots of experienced people screaming that it wasn't fair that they didn't get given the new mining frigate at V. As I said before I am neutral, but historical precedent of this sort of change actually is that people have to train the new hull.


I wasn't around then, but I'd like to hypothesize that there was less screaming because it wasn't a x14 skill for the hull with x10 and x12 skills you could train for 1/2 of the utility of the hull, plus another 15-ish million SP for the drone skills for the other 1/2 of the utility of the hull.


Not to mention that the mining frigates weren't just a role split but were also vastly better and had entirely new capabilities, and were in any case not that important to players who wanted to specialize in mining unless they cared about gas mining.

Capital pilots aren't gaining anything new; they're being asked to pay up to 18m sp for the ability to use ships that will be weaker than the ones they have now. If ccp insisted on splitting the skills (and I don't see the necessity for doing so when Caldari Frigate covers both the Kestrel and the Bantam) then significantly reducing the Rank was the way to go. Make both skills Rank 8 works fine for me.

I don't care a bit about "free SP", since I have zero interest in using either extractor or injectors. What I care about is the ability to do on Wednesday that I was able to do on Monday. Asking me to spend 2B on skill books and acquire and fit twice as many capital hulls seems more than a sufficient price to pay for that without adding 7 months of training or spending several hundred pounds as well.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Very Aggressive Reacharound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#153 - 2016-02-09 05:05:31 UTC
CCP you are disgusting making us train 4 new racial skills for logistics carrier. fire the new EA execs whos idea this is and stop with the money grab. It is so disgusting that you are forcing us to train more skills... taking what the carrier could already do and now makeing it take twice as long. You are such a bunch of sleeze balls. what is this all a ploy to get us to buy your stupid extraters!! I want to use so many more words but i can't but seriously remember incarna... remember monocole gate. stop trying to fleece us with your pay to play Bullshit.

we don't even know what changes you are making or the stats that are on the fax so we don't know which one will be the best to use.. so we don't know which to train.. WTF

FAX should be non racial like logistics, it already takes forever to train carriers up and now you want to limit what we can fly and as much as you change the damn ships changing what is best it's so stupid. also making us train 3 sperate fighter skills is absurd ah you guys are just disgusting!!!.

#incarna #fireMariaSayans
Dixie Mason
ZERO TAX MERCS
#154 - 2016-02-09 05:28:46 UTC
My congratulations to CCP, you are perfect in antagonizing your customer base.

Of course it's your game and your rules but I will have my little say in early/mid summer when my 3 accounts will expire.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#155 - 2016-02-09 05:44:23 UTC
Oh look, a well timed AUR sale is announced. Well that sets my mind at rest as to the motivation behind this.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lugh Crow-Slave
#156 - 2016-02-09 06:47:40 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Oh look, a well timed AUR sale is announced. Well that sets my mind at rest as to the motivation behind this.


Like I said convenient

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#157 - 2016-02-09 06:50:30 UTC
Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote:


FAX should be non racial like logistics, it already takes forever to train carriers up and now you want to limit what we can fly and as much as you change the damn ships changing what is best it's so stupid. also making us train 3 sperate fighter skills is absurd ah you guys are just disgusting!!!.

#incarna #fireMariaSayans



No the fax should be racial they are capitals however they should not be ×14 as they are not a super capital skill

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
DeLaBu
CAF Industries
#158 - 2016-02-09 07:05:01 UTC
CCP, please provide paths to both sides of specialisation.

The FAX machine users seem to have a path to their side, but the carrier path users will be stuck with the (now unused) triage module skills.

Or will there be something similar to a triage module for carrier users that this skill will be applicable to?

Or am I entirely missing a point somewhere?

Thanks.
Fladmeister
Order of Celestial Knights
#159 - 2016-02-09 07:34:56 UTC
Isn't this why we have the CSM?

"The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires active engagement with the player community to master EVE issue awareness, understanding, and evaluation in the context of the greatest good for the greater player base."
Very Aggressive Reacharound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#160 - 2016-02-09 08:10:53 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Would have been a lot simpler to just convert 'tactical logistics recon' to the new FAX skill. And base the performance of triage on that.


^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors.