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[March] Heavy Stasis Grapplers

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#201 - 2016-02-08 17:27:25 UTC
Longdrinks wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
So we have confirmed in the code why these modules cause less of a orbit vector disruption than one might expect. It's actually a very unintuitive mechanic behind the scenes, far from ideal. The upshot is that although this isn't a big deal for the Grapplers (since they only cause very slight orbit changes), we may found have an easy solution to the general case of orbit vector changing drastically when webbed or when you turn on a prop mod. Still doing some testing and investigating.

Fixing that would take away the advantage a experience player gets from piloting their own ship vs a noob just pressing orbit button. Please dont take away mechanics that allow higher skilled players to shine.

This behavior has nothing to do with skilled piloting. It's plain ridiculous; the fix of that behavior is actually something CCP should have done long ago to actually improve the game.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#202 - 2016-02-08 17:28:17 UTC
ApolloF117 HUN wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
i think it has potential, as there are a lot of people who will ramboi a Battleship in a svipul or other T3D/Frigate. I still see this as a bigger buff to missile BS, as turret BS still have to deal with tracking, and even with 85% reduction @ 1km (for t2), there is still the potential for smaller ships to sig tank them pretty easily. Or they could just hang out at 8-9km, scram kiting. But using this on a torpedo typhoon could have devastating effects on brawling cruisers and certain frigs (if you fit for max application). Which is a good thing.

On the other hand, i'm still alittle split on how a turret BS will make good use of it. Up close, having to deal with sig resolution of the turret+tracking will still make it tricky to hit smaller targets (as intended). So, missile BS were already in a decent spot, and it seems like this is a buff to them, but turret BS might still struggle slightly. Especially with low speed on BS. Even with a t2 100mn AB, most BS barely manage to get by 300-400m/s. Thats not much to range control with, especially against T3D's. Even with a 85% web.

This doesn't touch on the fact other BS might still need a physical rebalance. Things like the tempest fleet doing less dmg than T1. The fleet phoon's gun bonus is all but useless when you have the T1 pest, or the pest FI that offer better turret bonuses/utility. I'm sure there are others, but those are right off the top of my head.

Then we still have the issue with sensor strength being a tad low, when a single griffin or set of EC300's can permajam a BS. Even with ECCM. Although this could just be more related to how poor RNG is used in an EWAR.

Not to mention bombs/bombers needing rebalance.

I think the module has potential, but also don't want to see it as a band-aid to fix an ailing ship class, which has issues with more things than just fighting small ships.


please show me a typhoon fitt that is torpedo fitted , full aply and viable in solo pvp


[Typhoon, Torp]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Internal Force Field Array I
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Federation Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script

Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Heavy Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Hammerhead II x5
Valkyrie II x5
Acolyte II x5

With crash booster, applies about 300 dps to the standard dual MSE svipul (before drones). Applies perfectly to pretty much any cruiser. About 95k EHP as well. Before you go on about the plates, the fit/ship is meant to get in, apply a lot of damage in a short time and moonwalk out with MJD. I've used almost an identical setup with RHML and it works fine. Just swap one of the webs in the fit with the grappler, and now i've got even better application against ships.

You can even see video's of me using the RHML phoon with dual plates. So yes, its a viable solo fit, meant for a specific role. Blap scrams and peace out.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2016-02-08 17:29:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
It sounds like a good module to catch smaller things but in reality, smaller ships will probably still be able to pull away from you when you are using a grappler in deep falloff.

A new module for a new mechanic would have been better. I was hoping for a Ship Tractor Beam but i guess the code is too broken.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#204 - 2016-02-08 18:24:45 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
It sounds like a good module to catch smaller things but in reality, smaller ships will probably still be able to pull away from you when you are using a grappler in deep falloff.

A new module for a new mechanic would have been better. I was hoping for a Ship Tractor Beam but i guess the code is too broken.

For turret boats, the farther they get away the better the application is without webs. And for any ship not using linked faction webs, it still helps.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#205 - 2016-02-08 18:43:45 UTC
If they ever complete the E-WAR battleship class to make the scorpion not so much of a special snowflake, the minmatar one could have bonus to this instead of regular webs. Who knows...
Mr Grape Drink
Doomheim
#206 - 2016-02-08 19:16:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Grape Drink
nvm D:
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#207 - 2016-02-08 19:20:09 UTC
ArmyOfMe wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
*dusts off trusty old blasterthron* Cool


hyperion is better in every way except sig radius

Some of us are just nostalgic Blink
This man gets it.

FU Hyperion lovers! P

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Krevnos
Back Door Burglars
#208 - 2016-02-08 19:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Krevnos
While these modules have potential, failing to apply ship specific bonuses to them largely negates the relative effectiveness of web based ships. This is further exacerbated by the planned conversion of what are currently good officer modules into what will be effectively useless modules to certain ship types post-patch.

I would make two suggestions based on my personal observations:

1. Allow some bonus to these modules for web reliant ships. The current plans for exclusion make no practical sense.

2. Create new officer modules as appropriate rather than convert the current ones (frankly it's lazy to do that). This will allow players to make a choice based on their personal preference as they can in lower tiers (why remove that choice?).
Sakido Cain
Duragon Pioneer Group
#209 - 2016-02-08 20:33:51 UTC
Personally I find the lack of hull bonus application rather disappointing. Bhaalgorn's would not see any value in this, and the Vindi looses its only solid advantage (yes it is a DPS monster, but its also rather short range).

Speaking of the Vindi, with a modual like this, it will now be even harder for it to get into range, as any other ship can slow it down enough to keep out of its rather small death bubble (Fed Navy Web range) where it can finally over take it's prey. The Vindi is already hard to fit, so trying to place an extra web that isn't bonused is not worth it.

This modual basically gives even more advantage to Machs, and to a lesser degree ships like amarr, which have good range and solid tracking.

Also, while these are "small gang" intended, even small gang and "solo" (yeah right) gangs/pilots use boosters, which makes regular webs massively more effective. Having web ranges of more than 24k, at regular strength will trump a web that gets no bonuses and falloff penalties.

I actually like the idea of webs with falloff, but they have to be able to compete with what is currently in the game, or what is currently available would have to be removed. Also the grapples would need to have the same to better falloff than current webs.

The idea is sound, but they need to be a truly competitive modual vs what we have, or it will suffer the same fate as other good ideas that had bad implementation (ex: reactive armor hardener, a great modual, after the cap change and knowing not to over train the skill).

If you put this item into the game as it is stated now, it will not see true use for some time, after it gets adjusted to better suit combat and also slowly is accepted by the community after having been scoffed at for a year plus. This was seen in items, like the reactive armor hardener, which took a rather long time to be accepted as a valuable hardener, even though, it is rather strong when used right, but it had been shunned by the player base, due to poor balance of cap usage.

Personally, if this was my brainchild, I would want it to hit the market and be desirable, rather than spending a lot of time in development, only to be shunned.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#210 - 2016-02-08 20:59:36 UTC
Krevnos wrote:
While these modules have potential, failing to apply ship specific bonuses to them largely negates the relative effectiveness of web based ships. This is further exacerbated by the planned conversion of what are currently good officer modules into what will be effectively useless modules to certain ship types post-patch.



A vindicator that reduce your speed by 127.5% in optimal probably does wonky things with the code.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#211 - 2016-02-08 22:06:13 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Krevnos wrote:
While these modules have potential, failing to apply ship specific bonuses to them largely negates the relative effectiveness of web based ships. This is further exacerbated by the planned conversion of what are currently good officer modules into what will be effectively useless modules to certain ship types post-patch.



A vindicator that reduce your speed by 127.5% in optimal probably does wonky things with the code.


I'd be ok if a vindicator/vigilant/daredevil tried to web me and it repelled me away from him.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Alexis Nightwish
#212 - 2016-02-08 23:30:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We currently plan on converting existing officer webifiers into the officer versions of these new modules.
Why? Do you like taking options away from players? So now anyone who uses officer webs on a non-BS/capital gets shafted, and anyone who does use them on a BS/capital now gets an inferior module.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
We don't intend these modules to completely replace normal webs for Battleship use.
Yes you do. Any Vindi pilot with officer webs just got their awesome, bonused module replaced with an unbonused grappler.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Alexis Nightwish
#213 - 2016-02-08 23:36:48 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Alysha Saronn wrote:
Fozzie, can you do us all a favor here at eve and just leave the pvp and game design/balancing to someone who actually plays the damn game... I mean what the hell are you even thinking? 1km optimal web? are the devs and ccp stoned? What the hell are large turrets going to do to a frigate or dessie at 1km? even if you decide to move your aiding them.. Fall off on a webs is dumb and you should feel dumb..


You should feel dumb for thinking that BS should be able to solo frigates.

You should feel dumb for thinking that capitals should be able to solo subcaps.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Ace Lapointe
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2016-02-09 00:08:51 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Alysha Saronn wrote:
Fozzie, can you do us all a favor here at eve and just leave the pvp and game design/balancing to someone who actually plays the damn game... I mean what the hell are you even thinking? 1km optimal web? are the devs and ccp stoned? What the hell are large turrets going to do to a frigate or dessie at 1km? even if you decide to move your aiding them.. Fall off on a webs is dumb and you should feel dumb..


You should feel dumb for thinking that BS should be able to solo frigates.

You should feel dumb for thinking that capitals should be able to solo subcaps.


I have seen the Local Phoenix pilot solo fleets in my area all the time, I see Battleships breaking 20 man camps, so you should all feel dumb.. No? Cause you know, it happens, and you saying it can't.. When there is proof.. Yeah..

Also, comparing these on a Vindi is pointless do to the range limit, I mean they are inferior to the Vinidi's standard untill you get within 2-3km of the Vindi, and honestly, who the hell in EVE tries to outbrawl a Vindi without knowing he can smash it? No one, so your point is in revelent, and even on a Bhaal, if the numbers about this module stay, it will have what.. 5-7km Optimal? OMG.. That is ground breaking, those 1 or 2 ships will have to brawl down the Bhaal who has to sacrfice a Large Neut, or a Plate or a Prop mod just to get around this things fitting Restrictions, Webs should scale, this is a good step towards making sure that a ship with more power then a nuclear power plant has a little stronger systems then a bloody Frigate, anyone who thinks Webs from a BS should be the same strength as a Frigates is a idiot, or but hurt that their pathetic OP Svipuls will die in droves now when they try to brawl a battleship. 1km Optimal with under 10km Falloff isn't a great range guys, it is OP, it won't replace the 30km Webs that Rapiers and things get, it will be used mostly in Small Gang, and in the rare occassion Fleet fights, I can see a squad of Mega's or something similar landing on the enemy Logi or Anchor and hitting it will a few of these modules and then killing it with the fleet, but you can complain about that when we have modules that jump fleets 100km in random directs, haha! (Being MJD by a unfriendly is so fun, means you get a fight that more dedicate too!)
Alexis Nightwish
#215 - 2016-02-09 00:53:08 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Formosus Funus wrote:
Cool new mod, but this really should be a AOE module. Or is that a role for perhaps a Command Destroyer kind of shiptype?

But I do believe it should be AOE. Once it was actually an art in PVP to get under the guns, even while being webbed at 90%. However, over time smaller ships got their speed increased, and it has become an art to actually hit something which is in low orbit.


And achieve what? Creating squads of instawarping cruisers or whatever? Emergency warpouts for whole fleets if **** goes **** up? If this module was aoe I think every gank fleet in existence would want one. Every fleet of any imaginable composition would want them in pairs to immediately slingshot their whole fleet since it has 2second cycle it wears offf straight away too. Imagibe slippery petes with these. Or svipul gangs or literally any fleet ever.

In brief you idea is terrible.
How many Pete or Svipul fleets include battleships?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Ace Lapointe
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2016-02-09 01:14:00 UTC
You have never roamed with my Spectre Fleets, I always fly a Mega, and generally it is the fleet that slows me down, I have better Warp Speed then Cruisers on my default build and better Align then any Cruiser, and i haven't lost any of my proper fits yet, I have lost comedic ones (Triple Prop, that was a stupid dare, and a Shield fit.. Really wanted to go on a roam, but only Shield roams where running that day, I moved.. Way to fast..), but yeah, not Pete's though, But T3D Fleets, T2 and T1 Cruisers, Battlecruiser fleets, hell even some Ceptor/Frigate roams, you will see me FC'ing in my Mega, it's fun, and since I keep up with the fleet, there is no issue bringing it, and I have 3 times the tank minimum of a Cruiser and 2 times the DPS, hell, when I heat the MWD I move faster then any Armor Cruiser while having the tank and DPS I do, so yeah :) in case you didn't notice, I like Mega's!

ZagaBoom
Guardians Incorporated
Cynosural Field Theory.
#217 - 2016-02-09 02:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ZagaBoom
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Alysha Saronn wrote:
Fozzie, can you do us all a favor here at eve and just leave the pvp and game design/balancing to someone who actually plays the damn game... I mean what the hell are you even thinking? 1km optimal web? are the devs and ccp stoned? What the hell are large turrets going to do to a frigate or dessie at 1km? even if you decide to move your aiding them.. Fall off on a webs is dumb and you should feel dumb..


You should feel dumb for thinking that BS should be able to solo frigates.

You should feel dumb for thinking that capitals should be able to solo subcaps.


On the idea that capitals "can" solo sub capitals. That's not exactly fair. In order for a capital to solo a subcapital it cannot in any reality fight a capital. By your logic a frigate should not be able to kill a battleship then?

Or is it Frigates > Cruisers > Battlecruisers > Battleships > Capitals > Super Capitals > Titans? Seems literally inverted to me? Or should nothing be able to "solo" a ship category apart from itself? Once you start saying "this should be able to fight that and not this" You start to take a lot of sandbox away no? If I fit a RHM Typh and I rig and fit it for missile damage application and I don't hit my target I think I'd be annoyed. Since if I tried to fight a Torp fit Typh or even a Cruise fit Typh I'd probs get my poop pushed in. Fitting is the balance. Fit for the role. Don't say the hull can't do the job no matter what though. That's not sandbox. I have logistics ships and industrials that I pvp in. Hell I have a freaking Battle Rorqual. Yes I PVP IN A FREAKING RORQUAL.

Why don't we see fleets of roaming Blap Phoenixs? Why has no one roamed with a Leviathan? It's because Blap dreads are suicide. Brawl or bust. Also roaming Levi would require massive balls. On the topic of the dreads though! You're basically guaranteed to lose the dread. You're stuck for five minutes with nothing but a token tank. The # of videos you see of guys wrecking in blap dreads... welp ask them for the videos where the fights don't turn out so well.

I'm tired of people trying to limit what ships can do. Let the fit and the role dictate it's use not predetermined boxes that you can check to see if you have the right counter setup. "dreads should only shoot capitals" is about as dumb as saying "Guardians should only rep battleships" or "Talos can't bait" I assure you Talos bait cyno is both hilarious and effective.

Capitals SHOULD be able to fight sub-capitals. Sub-capitals SHOULD be able to fight capitals.


Just a couple examples of ships that cross/counter hull/role boundaries:
Blaster DD vs any BC or BS

Garmur vs Any Frigate

N.Raven RHM Anti-Frig fit

Machariel 1400mm Anti-BS fit

Napoc Pulse Anti-Cruiser,Battleship.

NightMare Armor Pulse Fit ^ ^ (btw :D tripple sebo + squad skills and you basically laugh in the face of damps... maniacally)
Nightmare Shield Anti-BS

Blap Pheonix - Sub Capital Blapper

Blaster Moros - Super Killers

Tracking Naglafars - Snuff dropped 40 Bhaalgorns again guys...

Combat carriers - Anti-sub cap

Blaster Megathrons - Anti-Capital

Tempests - Anti-Capital

Bhaalgorns - self explanatory
Abaddons - Freaking Useless
Adam Lyon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#218 - 2016-02-09 02:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Adam Lyon
Personally not a fan.

At least in lowsec when some solo BS comes swagging in, all of the good ones are fit with MJD meaning you've got to get hard tackle for any hope of a kill. I personally really like the idea of some newbro in an executioner being able to be the hero of the fight and I see this module very much killing that idea.

So long as getting under the guns without needing an A-Type Dramiel is still possible after the release of this module, I wouldn't mind seeing more yolomeisters trying their hand at solo BS in lowsec

EDIT: I love the subtle admission of outright cancer the guy above me talks about when he says Garmur > any frigate. So glad 60km points exist.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#219 - 2016-02-09 04:06:27 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Krevnos wrote:
While these modules have potential, failing to apply ship specific bonuses to them largely negates the relative effectiveness of web based ships. This is further exacerbated by the planned conversion of what are currently good officer modules into what will be effectively useless modules to certain ship types post-patch.



A vindicator that reduce your speed by 127.5% in optimal probably does wonky things with the code.

Given the track record with things like this, I'm sure it would have been hilarious.

Ccplsgib

I'm right behind you
bunzing heet
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#220 - 2016-02-09 04:25:59 UTC
is this grappler intended to give bss the much needed buff they need ?
and are you guys planning on doing more to bss in the near future because this module will only provide a limited amount of bss a boost and most of them still need tweaking

Fly safe keep killing And remember I'm watching you !!!!