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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1961 - 2016-02-08 04:30:39 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose...
2 things:
1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient.
2) I find it hard to believe that a 2 PLEX fee was a "byproduct." Or is a money grab just a term we use as another selective principle?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1962 - 2016-02-08 04:44:44 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose...
2 things:
1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient.
2) I find it hard to believe that a 2 PLEX fee was a "byproduct." Or is a money grab just a term we use as another selective principle?

Nothing like selective outrage.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#1963 - 2016-02-08 08:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sizeof Void
With the given cost for extractors, it looks like the cost of injectors will figure to be around 0.55 PLEX cost, on market.

At that price point, I rather doubt that this new feature is going to benefit noobs, who are probably going to be unlikely/unable to pay for them with either RL cash or in-game ISK. So, I do not expect that this new feature will result in any significant boost in new player attraction nor retention - ie. no new subs.

However, I do expect that a significant number of older players, esp. the space-rich with PLEX stockpiles and with a bunch of old alts with mis-distributed SP, will use their PLEX to buy extractors, create injectors, and move around SP.

The funny thing is that, even if no new PLEX are purchased for RL cash, the increased use of the PLEX from existing stockpiles *will* improve CCP's revenue, at least on paper, since CCP apparently does not record purshased PLEX as revenue, until *after* the PLEX has actually been consumed in game.

So, this new feature may be nothing more than a creative accounting trick, in order to realize more revenue, on the income statement, by getting players to use up more of the already existing in-game PLEX.

LOL
BearStrikesBack
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1964 - 2016-02-08 09:32:51 UTC
The funniest thing is that the more money you want to invest in game (assuming buying SPs), the less you get. It is almost indifferent for you whether to use this new supa-dupa feature or go straight to the character bazaar for low-SP characters. For high-SP characters you must be really insane not to use character bazaar.

This whole system doesn't stimulate gamers to invest their money ingame. Well played marketing department.

P.S. I was planning to do some stuff with this feature with one of my alts. When I did calculations, I noticed that I would save like 50% of budget by selling char and buying a new one.
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#1965 - 2016-02-08 10:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Berrice Silf
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose...
2 things:
1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient.
2) I find it hard to believe that a 2 PLEX fee was a "byproduct." Or is a money grab just a term we use as another selective principle?


I'm not a hater of the bazaar, I find it serve's a unique purpose within the game and its been there for almost as long as the game itself. I suppose if your in game rich enough to transfer characters with plex its an easier method but i'd rather pay £17 to transfer a character than the 2 plex method which is equivalent to £30 to £34.

The gripe with a lot over this is simple one.

The Nexx store will not ever sell anything that will give anyone an in game advantage with the use of monies over time - Yet another lie.

No product can be purchased from the nexx store with aurum that has a like for like value - Its a con. It's like going to buy a computer finding one for £1000 then being told at the checkout its actually £1150 but we'll give you a credit note for £150 you can spend at a later date.

E.G. In wow if i want to transfer a toon its £17, If i want a pet or vanity item its £6 to £9 NOT its £22 and we'll stick you £4 in your battlenet account for a later date.

The players who have supported this game from the beginning are the ones who are getting shafted.

If they wanted a money grab like i said before they should of just just sold skill point packages to anyone who needed / wanted them without interfering with anything in game, also as Moac Tor suggested some form of skill realigning packages. As a vet i have no need for isk but thats all i can get out of this because the penalty clause within the injectors.

The game is already overwhelming to many new players, now its becomes even more convoluted with this mechanic over simply visiting a page to purchase an upgrade.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#1966 - 2016-02-08 10:44:40 UTC
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Good thing it will not look like a extremely overpriced f2p paywall in a subscription now. Now it will look like an extremely insane overprised f2p paywall in a subscription game. Good job!


The result would be that the game doesn't get unbalanced by it. Nobody who isn't super rich is going to be willing to buy enough injectors to "win". Maybe get a few weeks ahead without waiting.


But it's not a situation where, if you don't pay, you lose. Not even a situation where refusing to pay puts you at a significant disadvantage.

If the price were like $50.00 for a 80 m SP character, then you'd have to pay or you might as well not bother to play. But at $1890.00 I think it's a safe bet you won't get gank swarmed by an bunch of 80m SP pay players who started last week.

Not unless a Harvard Fraternity gets into Eve, or something.

I never said anything about pay2win. After you got the basic skills SP just gives you more options, but not more "win". I always criticized the appearance of this feature as a ridiculous paywall to new players who are used to such things from free2play titles.

So your argument is basically that the price for packets is so ridiculous that no sane new player will perceive it as a regular paywall? In this case they may just ignore it, but then you cant claim this feature has anything to do with new players. It's just some toy for old rich players.

Evil RatKid
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1967 - 2016-02-08 11:01:49 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Good thing it will not look like a extremely overpriced f2p paywall in a subscription now. Now it will look like an extremely insane overprised f2p paywall in a subscription game. Good job!


The result would be that the game doesn't get unbalanced by it. Nobody who isn't super rich is going to be willing to buy enough injectors to "win". Maybe get a few weeks ahead without waiting.


But it's not a situation where, if you don't pay, you lose. Not even a situation where refusing to pay puts you at a significant disadvantage.

If the price were like $50.00 for a 80 m SP character, then you'd have to pay or you might as well not bother to play. But at $1890.00 I think it's a safe bet you won't get gank swarmed by an bunch of 80m SP pay players who started last week.

Not unless a Harvard Fraternity gets into Eve, or something.

I never said anything about pay2win. After you got the basic skills SP just gives you more options, but not more "win". I always criticized the appearance of this feature as a ridiculous paywall to new players who are used to such things from free2play titles.

So your argument is basically that the price for packets is so ridiculous that no sane new player will perceive it as a regular paywall? In this case they may just ignore it, but then you cant claim this feature has anything to do with new players. It's just some toy for old rich players.


Ye Gods, I'm agreeing with a CODE member...it feels so wrong...yet it feels so right...
Josef Djugashvilis
#1968 - 2016-02-08 12:17:02 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose...
2 things:
1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient.
2) I find it hard to believe that a 2 PLEX fee was a "byproduct." Or is a money grab just a term we use as another selective principle?


I did not like or approve of the Character Bazaar when it was suggested, nor do I like it now.

I think that CCP can and should have found other ways to reduce 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters etc.

The same goes for PLEX - can't be bothered to play and earn isk in-game so I will just buy it with real life money - Bah!

For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?

This is not a signature.
Nuclear Nut Zack
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1969 - 2016-02-08 12:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nuclear Nut Zack
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:

I did not like or approve of the Character Bazaar when it was suggested, nor do I like it now.

I think that CCP can and should have found other ways to reduce 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters etc.

The same goes for PLEX - can't be bothered to play and earn isk in-game so I will just buy it with real life money - Bah!

For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?

On the other hand, if PLEX and the Character Bazaar didn't exist, how many new players would look at subscription prices or training times, think 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun? I know I would have.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1970 - 2016-02-08 13:06:57 UTC
Nuclear Nut Zack wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:

I did not like or approve of the Character Bazaar when it was suggested, nor do I like it now.

I think that CCP can and should have found other ways to reduce 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters etc.

The same goes for PLEX - can't be bothered to play and earn isk in-game so I will just buy it with real life money - Bah!

For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?

On the other hand, if PLEX and the Character Bazaar didn't exist, how many new players would look at subscription prices or training times, think 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun? I know I would have.


On the other other hand (hmmm, too much time in the nuclear physics lab maybe...) /i didn't know that either PLEX or the character bazaar existed but liked the game for what it was and /i stayed.

I still think it is the NPE that's the problem, not the skill system.
Memphis Baas
#1971 - 2016-02-08 13:28:26 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?


Repeating an idea posted earlier in the thread: after the feature is released, CCP should set up a donation bin, so that they can verify true newbies from alts, and distribute some skill injectors. I'm sure we'll donate, especially if enticed with special edition t-shirts or ship skins as rewards or prizes.

Otherwise, the newbies who make it into player corps or alliances will get some of these injectors as a bonus for joining, based on how generous the corp / alliance is. But making newbies feel welcome is already something that we do, via the free ship / skills programs and tutorials / mentoring.

The donation bin would just cover the newbies who don't get into a player corp right away.
Ein Herje
Indirect approach
Fraternity Auxiliary
#1972 - 2016-02-08 13:57:48 UTC
As long as you keep your character under 5 mill sp guys you will be fine, just strip
all your characters down to below 5 mill sp, then take all the injectors from all your chars
and inject them into your favourite char, then delete everyone else and you'r good to go
these restrictions on the injectors don't mean ****, It would be better if they could
hardcap it at 40-60 mill sp say ...

All I know is one thing, 5 characters will become one, discontinuing the 4 other subs as soon
as I have sucked the skills out of them.
Nuclear Nut Zack
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1973 - 2016-02-08 14:15:46 UTC
Ein Herje wrote:
As long as you keep your character under 5 mill sp guys you will be fine, just strip
all your characters down to below 5 mill sp

Extractors can't take a character below 5 mil. You need to have 5.5 mil to use one.
Bill Maverick
Doomheim
#1974 - 2016-02-08 14:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Bill Maverick

  • CCP Cash Grab - absolutely, however as the creators, developers and maintainers, they have every right to do so. The employees need to be paid, and the equipment needs top be maintained With inflation comes wage increases, with expansion comes new equipment, with breakdowns comes new parts etc, etc. none of which pays for itself. If CCP didn't come up with new cash grab ideas, perhaps the price of subscriptions or PLEX would increase instead, which way would you prefer?? I know I would rather see these smaller ideas implemented rather than my subscription increase, but that's my opinion.

  • Rich players prosper- I do believe IMO that the wealthy in game will benefit from this more than the intended newbies. Not quite sure how it was intended is how it will work out to be honest, we shall see in the next couple of months I guess. I reckon there maybe a few overhauls of the system before it settles, only time will tell.


Bottom line though is this -

There will always be the for and against, the believers and the haters, we are all entitled to our own opinions but:

  • Don't like the price - don't pay for it
  • Don't like the idea - don't use it


It will more than likely be used as a useless skill remover to put elsewhere relevant, rather than wiping old characters to build new ones, or to build one from scratch, or a newbie build himself up to a super pilot lol, that would be just a waste of money, when you can just go to bizarre and buy one for a fraction of the cost.
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1975 - 2016-02-08 16:00:21 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
galtest12345 wrote:
People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?

This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.

I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably.



Ya this works in a free to play game not subscription based model. This is point blank a money grab from CCP no if's, an's, or but's. There isn't a right, wrong, left, or right, it's very clear cut. CCP is being greedy and lied to us period.


There is a Very old saying dates back to long time ago

Money For Old Rope

CCP Should change there name

What Is the Origin of the Saying "To Make Money from Old Rope"?
To make money from old rope means to make money by selling something that has been used and ought to be worthless. This extends to profiting from knowledge or using skills that were learnt for another purpose. This term has a nautical history. In the days of sailing ships, sailors would cut damaged rope into smaller undamaged lengths and sell it when ashore. At sea, long ropes are required, but on land, shorter lengths were still useful and could be sold.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1976 - 2016-02-08 16:06:42 UTC
Suede wrote:
...

Money For Old Rope

CCP Should change there name

...


'Bite size Brains' has a nice ring to it...
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1977 - 2016-02-08 16:41:47 UTC
The balance price for 500k SP is 1/4 of a PLEX (because one can generate about 2M SP per month, and sub for a PLEX).

The extractor price is 1000/3500 = 2/7 of a PLEX (because one can exchange a PLEX for 3500 AUR, and an extractor is 1000 AUR - well, 999 AUR, but that's just CCP's lovely way of telling nerds that they are a numerically challenged...).

The overhead is hence (2/7) / (1/4) = 8/7 or 114.3%. CCP is more than doubling the price of skill injectors for you.

If you like to consider this as fraction of the total: (2/7) / (1/4 + 2/7) = 15/28 = 53.4% of the total price is CCP's take.

Another way of looking at this is to compare two use cases:

1) Have a main and an alt subscribed, for independent usage: 2 PLEX sub per month.

2) Have a main and alt subscribed, where the alt supplies its SP to the main to double its training speed: 2 PLEX sub per month + 4 * 2/7 = 8/7 PLEX for extractors per month = 22/7 PLEX per month.

Do you see a good reason why 2) should be more expensive than 1)? I don't, really... But CCP does:

(22/7) / 2 = 11/7 = 157. 1%

So a new player using multiple subscriptions in the attempt to make just one character "catch up" (for an in-game advantage, or simply to access more game content) pays 57.1% premium as compared to a veteran switching between alts / multi-boxing for an in-game advantage. Of course, the (ISK) rich may shrug at the premium and multi-train this way anyway. It is the poorer players (in real life or in-game) for whom this is a major disincentive.

Compare all this to my suggestion of 100 AUR. That would have been a 11.4% overhead (10.2% of total price), with a 5.7% premium for speed training in the use case. That would have made some kind of sense, being in the same ballpark as station tax...
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1978 - 2016-02-08 17:06:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient.
In the same vein, PLEX was introduced to give CCP control over the illegal RMT trade. But it's still RMT.

No one seems to have a problem with that, so why should they have a problem with any of the other things that - instead of being fixed- are just being moved under CCP control?

Mr Epeen Cool
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
#1979 - 2016-02-08 19:17:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamish McRothimay
Forget it
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1980 - 2016-02-08 19:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Berrice Silf wrote:
I'm not a hater of the bazaar, I find it serve's a unique purpose within the game and its been there for almost as long as the game itself. I suppose if your in game rich enough to transfer characters with plex its an easier method but i'd rather pay £17 to transfer a character than the 2 plex method which is equivalent to £30 to £34.
Others would rather avoid spending their money altogether and go the PLEX route, trying to bake as much of that isk cost into the character price. The point here being that the bazaar has never been a charitable venture: CCP allows character purchases, which means more trades, which means more trade fees.

Berrice Silf wrote:
The gripe with a lot over this is simple one.

The Nexx store will not ever sell anything that will give anyone an in game advantage with the use of monies over time - Yet another lie.
The issue being missed again is this: When was that proven a lie? When this was proposed? Or years before it was uttered? If this is wrong so are the things that came before, and everyone who bought that line did anything but consider there was a different meaning behind that than the one they wanted.

Basically what CCP never committed to not do, and was instead doing the whole time, was allowing players to buy each other's advantages while they take a cut.

Berrice Silf wrote:
No product can be purchased from the nexx store with aurum that has a like for like value - Its a con. It's like going to buy a computer finding one for £1000 then being told at the checkout its actually £1150 but we'll give you a credit note for £150 you can spend at a later date.

E.G. In wow if i want to transfer a toon its £17, If i want a pet or vanity item its £6 to £9 NOT its £22 and we'll stick you £4 in your battlenet account for a later date.
No, that's not a con. you're buying vouchers for services from CCP, and you're getting vouchers for services from CCP. Further, CCP is honoring those vouchers. No "con" has occurred. Yes, there is a less than consumer friendly practice at play, but the numbers are there for everyone to see and judge whether they want to give their patronage. Nothing in the NEX is a mandatory feature. If you hate having leftover AUR, buy what you want on the market, or better, if you're really that principled regarding the prior idea of selling advantages and believe that's what this, PLEX or the bazaar are, simple: don't contribute to them.

Berrice Silf wrote:
The players who have supported this game from the beginning are the ones who are getting shafted.

If they wanted a money grab like i said before they should of just just sold skill point packages to anyone who needed / wanted them without interfering with anything in game, also as Moac Tor suggested some form of skill realigning packages. As a vet i have no need for isk but thats all i can get out of this because the penalty clause within the injectors.

The game is already overwhelming to many new players, now its becomes even more convoluted with this mechanic over simply visiting a page to purchase an upgrade.
They of course didn't do that because that would have crossed a line from allowing players to sell their accumulated advantages to each other to actually selling the advantages themselves. As stated above, the former is something they never said they wouldn't do where as the latter wasn't. Fact is the "victory" that occurred ending the summer of rage forbids this solution from coming into being. That's the reality of the promise that was made.

The funny thing though to me is this. People keep claiming the mechanic convolutes things for new players. It really doesn't. Go to the market, buy the item, use it. The rest to them is a mechanic we never decided was too hard for them to use, PLEX and isk earning. If the contention is that they're not going to play because there is an extraction mechanic they can't even use, what other mechanics that they don't understand right away need to be axed to make the game more accessible?