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[March] Heavy Stasis Grapplers

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tasman devil
Puritans
#161 - 2016-02-08 09:23:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Friends, pilots, capsuleers, lend me your ears! Today we're ready to discuss a new module that we are planning on
releasing in our March patch.

I'm excited to see how you creative pilots take advantage of them, esp solo/small gang BS pilots who should
get a lot of value from them. The Stasis Grappler module is a new class of web that has high strength, low optimal
and high falloff. It will be the first webifier-type module to use falloff, which will reduce the strength of the web as
the range increases. This module can only be fit onto BS and Caps, and just one per ship. It's seperate from
existing Stasis Webs, and doesn't get bonuses from any web-specific bonuses (so no range bonus on Bhaalgorns or
strength bonus from Vindicators, and no benefit from gang links).


THIS.

Seriously.

Fozzy. Please... there are like 500 modules that BADLY needs a tiercide rebalance (and in the right direction) and instead you are introducion MORE modules?

ehhh

I don't belive in reincarnation I've never believed in it in my previous lives either...
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#162 - 2016-02-08 09:44:36 UTC
holy **** i almost bought the tobi web in jita yesterday
thank god i decided to sleep on it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Blackfeathers
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#163 - 2016-02-08 09:58:20 UTC
I think the REAL question here is: Will this stack with Webifier Drones? They are a key tool that nearly all pilots constantly use already, and I feel it is important to answer this question ASAP.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#164 - 2016-02-08 10:28:57 UTC
I'm also against converting officer mods. This new mod is interesting but I'm holding my judgement until I have tested it.
Anthar Thebess
#165 - 2016-02-08 10:31:24 UTC
Can we get it as a higslot module.
This will make things much more interesting.

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big miker
Frogleap Factories
#166 - 2016-02-08 10:33:00 UTC
Zarvox Toral wrote:
Cristl wrote:
Zarvox Toral wrote:
What's going to happen here? If the slowing effect of these new webs is anything like the existing webs, and they increase in strength (therefore gradually decreasing the targets max velocity) as the target gets closer, it seems to me that the target ship is going to be going completely bonkers as its max speed is constantly being adjusted by the increasing web strength during approach, and the orbital plane this ship is trying to get into is being flipped around randomly with every refresh of the web strength.

This is an interesting point. To be honest, could we not have a more sophisticated orbit command? I don't want the game playing itself for me, nor do I want to kill the hamsters with Bessel functions, but it must be possible to program a more intelligent algorithm that prioritises maintaining velocity more highly.


A new orbit command, perhaps with the ability to manually set or adjust the orbital plane would be great, but somehow I don't think that's gonna be happening anytime soon. One can only hope.

I've thought about this a lot over the past few hours and I really think it's gonna be absolute chaos. Since even infinitesimal adjustments to max velocity can cause massive rotations of the orbital plane (try orbiting something at 500m, then very slightly dropping your velocity, you'll see what I mean, your ship goes mental trying to attain the new orbit) and therefore this new grappler web, will very often cause the target ship to come to an almost complete stop before attempting to settle into a different orbital plane even at 20km away, and since many pilots use the orbit command to tackle, as soon as a tackler is webbed, even at opt+2*falloff (~20km or more), their ship will very often just flat out stop moving while still 20km from the target, slowly pick up velocity only to be stopped/severely slowed again, repeated every two seconds.

Unless CCP will be changing the way velocity adjustments cause havoc to your orbit, this is going to be a nightmare for tacklers. Tacklers are going to be blapped ridiculously easily from 20km even though the web effect is tiny at this range, because their ship will be potentially coming to a stop every 2 seconds when the web effect is refreshed, or recalculated, or whatever.

I should point out that it's actually great for me, I don't fly tackle in fleets, and when I fly solo BS I know that I can exploit the crap out of this to hugely slow/stop and blap frigs from 20km even with just a t2 grappler, but it does seem super, super broken to me.

I feel like I must be missing something though, because it just doesn't make sense that nobody has thought of this.

Plenty of people know about disengaging/re-engaging webs in order to provoke the change of orbital plane, reduce transversal briefly and score huge hits, so either a) I'm missing something massive, or b) these webs will be unbelievably overpowered because it's going to reduce transversal far beyond what is implied by the ~85% speed reduction at close range, and will be capable of stopping any orbiting ship in it's tracks every 2 seconds well beyond 20km.



I have to disagree on this!
Zarvox, even though the web trick may seem like a stupid mechanic for people who primarily use the orbit command, it does seperate the good pilots from bad pilots. Skillfull piloting, or better said manual piloting will always win in situations like that, since manual clicking your orbit path won't get screwed over by the web trick. Tackle pilots who manually pilot their ship like that are lethal!

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Zarvox Toral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2016-02-08 10:58:02 UTC
big miker wrote:
Zarvox Toral wrote:
Cristl wrote:
Zarvox Toral wrote:
What's going to happen here? If the slowing effect of these new webs is anything like the existing webs, and they increase in strength (therefore gradually decreasing the targets max velocity) as the target gets closer, it seems to me that the target ship is going to be going completely bonkers as its max speed is constantly being adjusted by the increasing web strength during approach, and the orbital plane this ship is trying to get into is being flipped around randomly with every refresh of the web strength.

This is an interesting point. To be honest, could we not have a more sophisticated orbit command? I don't want the game playing itself for me, nor do I want to kill the hamsters with Bessel functions, but it must be possible to program a more intelligent algorithm that prioritises maintaining velocity more highly.


A new orbit command, perhaps with the ability to manually set or adjust the orbital plane would be great, but somehow I don't think that's gonna be happening anytime soon. One can only hope.

I've thought about this a lot over the past few hours and I really think it's gonna be absolute chaos. Since even infinitesimal adjustments to max velocity can cause massive rotations of the orbital plane (try orbiting something at 500m, then very slightly dropping your velocity, you'll see what I mean, your ship goes mental trying to attain the new orbit) and therefore this new grappler web, will very often cause the target ship to come to an almost complete stop before attempting to settle into a different orbital plane even at 20km away, and since many pilots use the orbit command to tackle, as soon as a tackler is webbed, even at opt+2*falloff (~20km or more), their ship will very often just flat out stop moving while still 20km from the target, slowly pick up velocity only to be stopped/severely slowed again, repeated every two seconds.

Unless CCP will be changing the way velocity adjustments cause havoc to your orbit, this is going to be a nightmare for tacklers. Tacklers are going to be blapped ridiculously easily from 20km even though the web effect is tiny at this range, because their ship will be potentially coming to a stop every 2 seconds when the web effect is refreshed, or recalculated, or whatever.

I should point out that it's actually great for me, I don't fly tackle in fleets, and when I fly solo BS I know that I can exploit the crap out of this to hugely slow/stop and blap frigs from 20km even with just a t2 grappler, but it does seem super, super broken to me.

I feel like I must be missing something though, because it just doesn't make sense that nobody has thought of this.

Plenty of people know about disengaging/re-engaging webs in order to provoke the change of orbital plane, reduce transversal briefly and score huge hits, so either a) I'm missing something massive, or b) these webs will be unbelievably overpowered because it's going to reduce transversal far beyond what is implied by the ~85% speed reduction at close range, and will be capable of stopping any orbiting ship in it's tracks every 2 seconds well beyond 20km.



I have to disagree on this!
Zarvox, even though the web trick may seem like a stupid mechanic for people who primarily use the orbit command, it does seperate the good pilots from bad pilots. Skillfull piloting, or better said manual piloting will always win in situations like that, since manual clicking your orbit path won't get screwed over by the web trick. Tackle pilots who manually pilot their ship like that are lethal!



I don't think this a realistic expectation, any more than simply removing the orbit command would be. It's there for a reason - the vast majority of people aren't Big Miker XD, the vast majority in fact do use this command
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#168 - 2016-02-08 11:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Ncc 1709 wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
I made a pretty graph on tab 2.

This is definitely interesting. For both heated and unheated there's only a narrow window at the edge of normal web range where a normal web is actually better than these. It's an interesting concept.


can you do the same for faction web and grapple, and top meta web and grapple please?

These calculations are wrong as per #17.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Carbon Alabel wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of the name, but it looks pretty solid otherwise, except for one thing: how efficient will it be at falloff range? If the strength falls close to zero at falloff range, I don't really see this as a viable alternative to regular webs.

At optimal+1x falloff, they are half of full strength.



You should probably elaborate more on this in the original post.

At optimal, 100% strength
Opt + 0.5 falloffs: ~84% strength
Opt + 1.0 falloffs: 50% strength
Opt + 1.5f: ~20% strength
Opt + 2f: 6.25% strength

There's nothing to elaborate. CCP goes from a All or nothing approach to a All or largely useless to nothing approach with their fall-offs implementation. If it was a steadily declining fall-off (eg. like with weapons), this module would be interesting but with this new 100-50-6% fall-off rubbish that CCP introduced with neuts and remote reps, this module is nigh useless.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#169 - 2016-02-08 11:21:34 UTC
It is steadily declining, just like guns. Stats like the 50% at optimal + 1x falloff is simply a sample along that curve used to help illustrate the pattern in text.

My OP now has a graph that demonstrates the falloff visually if that helps.

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Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#170 - 2016-02-08 11:43:30 UTC
This was requested by the players for awhile now, thanks for introducing it.

Still waiting for the re-balance of bombs and or bombers versus battleships.

Regards, a Freelancer

ps: there is no hard counter to the Micro Jump Field Generator, please take that into account Cool

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A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

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Mystical Might
Eclipse Pulsar
Fraternity.
#171 - 2016-02-08 11:49:20 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
...

ps: there is no hard counter to the Micro Jump Field Generator, please take that into account Cool



Have you tried:

A) Paying attention
B) Tackling said MJFG ship

??

What more do you want in the ways of counters?
Mr Spaxi
#172 - 2016-02-08 11:50:29 UTC
Zarvox Toral wrote:
big miker wrote:
Zarvox Toral wrote:
Cristl wrote:
Zarvox Toral wrote:
What's going to happen here? If the slowing effect of these new webs is anything like the existing webs, and they increase in strength (therefore gradually decreasing the targets max velocity) as the target gets closer, it seems to me that the target ship is going to be going completely bonkers as its max speed is constantly being adjusted by the increasing web strength during approach, and the orbital plane this ship is trying to get into is being flipped around randomly with every refresh of the web strength.

This is an interesting point. To be honest, could we not have a more sophisticated orbit command? I don't want the game playing itself for me, nor do I want to kill the hamsters with Bessel functions, but it must be possible to program a more intelligent algorithm that prioritises maintaining velocity more highly.


A new orbit command, perhaps with the ability to manually set or adjust the orbital plane would be great, but somehow I don't think that's gonna be happening anytime soon. One can only hope.

I've thought about this a lot over the past few hours and I really think it's gonna be absolute chaos. Since even infinitesimal adjustments to max velocity can cause massive rotations of the orbital plane (try orbiting something at 500m, then very slightly dropping your velocity, you'll see what I mean, your ship goes mental trying to attain the new orbit) and therefore this new grappler web, will very often cause the target ship to come to an almost complete stop before attempting to settle into a different orbital plane even at 20km away, and since many pilots use the orbit command to tackle, as soon as a tackler is webbed, even at opt+2*falloff (~20km or more), their ship will very often just flat out stop moving while still 20km from the target, slowly pick up velocity only to be stopped/severely slowed again, repeated every two seconds.

Unless CCP will be changing the way velocity adjustments cause havoc to your orbit, this is going to be a nightmare for tacklers. Tacklers are going to be blapped ridiculously easily from 20km even though the web effect is tiny at this range, because their ship will be potentially coming to a stop every 2 seconds when the web effect is refreshed, or recalculated, or whatever.

I should point out that it's actually great for me, I don't fly tackle in fleets, and when I fly solo BS I know that I can exploit the crap out of this to hugely slow/stop and blap frigs from 20km even with just a t2 grappler, but it does seem super, super broken to me.

I feel like I must be missing something though, because it just doesn't make sense that nobody has thought of this.

Plenty of people know about disengaging/re-engaging webs in order to provoke the change of orbital plane, reduce transversal briefly and score huge hits, so either a) I'm missing something massive, or b) these webs will be unbelievably overpowered because it's going to reduce transversal far beyond what is implied by the ~85% speed reduction at close range, and will be capable of stopping any orbiting ship in it's tracks every 2 seconds well beyond 20km.



I have to disagree on this!
Zarvox, even though the web trick may seem like a stupid mechanic for people who primarily use the orbit command, it does seperate the good pilots from bad pilots. Skillfull piloting, or better said manual piloting will always win in situations like that, since manual clicking your orbit path won't get screwed over by the web trick. Tackle pilots who manually pilot their ship like that are lethal!



I don't think this a realistic expectation, any more than simply removing the orbit command would be. It's there for a reason - the vast majority of people aren't Big Miker XD, the vast majority in fact do use this command


But it is. If it weren't, what would separate a pilot who knows how to manually fly and the one who doesn't? Nothing much. Orbit is fine as it is.
ApolloF117 HUN
The All-Seeing Eye
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#173 - 2016-02-08 11:50:40 UTC
Since its a Battleship and capital weaponry, can the Tier 3 Battlecruisers (Talos,Tornado,Oracle,Naga) have bonus to them? like less fitting etc etc
Mr Spaxi
#174 - 2016-02-08 11:52:26 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

There's nothing to elaborate. CCP goes from a All or nothing approach to a All or largely useless to nothing approach with their fall-offs implementation. If it was a steadily declining fall-off (eg. like with weapons), this module would be interesting but with this new 100-50-6% fall-off rubbish that CCP introduced with neuts and remote reps, this module is nigh useless.


Fall-off on new modules works the same as with guns. At optimal+1xfalloff you get 50% DPS on a target with 0 transversal.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#175 - 2016-02-08 11:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Mr Spaxi wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:

There's nothing to elaborate. CCP goes from a All or nothing approach to a All or largely useless to nothing approach with their fall-offs implementation. If it was a steadily declining fall-off (eg. like with weapons), this module would be interesting but with this new 100-50-6% fall-off rubbish that CCP introduced with neuts and remote reps, this module is nigh useless.


Fall-off on new modules works the same as with guns. At optimal+1xfalloff you get 50% DPS on a target with 0 transversal.

That's not how the changed remote reps and neuts work.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
It is steadily declining, just like guns. Stats like the 50% at optimal + 1x falloff is simply a sample along that curve used to help illustrate the pattern in text.

My OP now has a graph that demonstrates the falloff visually if that helps.

Fair enough, at least something.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
klana depp
Tr0pa de elite.
#176 - 2016-02-08 12:13:37 UTC
first off, i have to admit that i didnt read thru all of the thread, only glanced over it.

so far i cannot think of a single use case for this module; no frigate is gonna get THAT close to your bs/cap anyway. webs are primarily used on ships with webbing bonus, and, for fleets, mostly with range modifying ships.... none of which applies here..


anyway.
what i REALLY wanted to say

PLEASE DO NOT CONVERT MY OFFICER WEB TO THIS ABOMINATION OR I WILL CRY BIG PANDA TEARS!

thanks, thats all.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#177 - 2016-02-08 12:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Grath Telkin wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
So overheated t2 version at 10km have (assuming linear change in power) around 60% web power.

So basically You want to stay at >10km and its weaker web and only when he is overheating. After few cycles he will have to turn off overheating and web power falls to little over 40%


Incorrect, heat doesn't add strength it adds range which will kind of do what you describe, just not with as much shift in power as you seem to think, however at 10km its strength should be just under 50% but with a two second cycle time and the ability to get stronger as you get closer.

So say you get an overheated scram on a guy and throw your deep in fall off grappler on him you can now begin to approach him and as you get closer he'll get webbed harder and harder. In the mean time its got a 2 second cycle time so if you're good at mod management you can probably cycle between targets slowing frigates in scram range for your drones to get on and cycling back onto the primary without him really ever noticing he was unwebbed.


So what exactly happens when the guy your doing this to has an overheated scram and fed navy (or even overheated T2) web on you?


Unless the plan is to nerf all current webs, these are a nice (in some limited situations) gimick

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#178 - 2016-02-08 12:39:33 UTC
I for one can't wait for the new Heavy Grappling Cruisers featuring range / FO bonusses and scripted web bubble.

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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#179 - 2016-02-08 12:41:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This module can only be fit onto BS and Caps, and just one per ship.

That's not how EVE works.
Here, we have fitting requirements and drawbacks, and if I fit 100MN AB on my cruiser - that is my choice. And that is a great part of the game, which I enjoy.
Make it require 2000 MW of PG like officer web, or something - I dont care. But dont punish creativity of EVE players. Thank you very much.
ApolloF117 HUN
The All-Seeing Eye
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#180 - 2016-02-08 12:45:10 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This module can only be fit onto BS and Caps, and just one per ship.

That's not how EVE works.
Here, we have fitting requirements and drawbacks, and if I fit 100MN AB on my cruiser - that is my choice. And that is a great part of the game, which I enjoy.
Make it require 2000 MW of PG like officer web, or something - I dont care. But dont punish creativity of EVE players. Thank you very much.

nope, this is how fozzie works since incarna