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[March] Heavy Stasis Grapplers

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William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#141 - 2016-02-08 04:46:21 UTC
How long it can be overheated?

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#142 - 2016-02-08 04:49:25 UTC
Haven't seen it asked yet but if this module doesn't get bonuses from links or roles applied to it then does it also circumvent the penalties applied to webs in black holes?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#143 - 2016-02-08 05:50:18 UTC
Well that is an interesting shakeup. I like it a lot even though I fear I'll be on the wrong end of it more often than not.

A clarification: Can all battleships use it, including T2 ones? It will be very strong on Marauders (although I expect still fair).


I think these should be able to be fitted to heavy interdictors as well (and those hulls should receive a considerable fitting discount on them, at least for PG).

And finally, there looks to be room for some deadspace ones too - perhaps with the following stats:

Deadspace Stasis Grappler - Range Optimized 4 cap 2000ms 25 CPU 230 PG 300% overheat -86.5% speed 2000m optimal 12500m falloff - (unsure which faction to suggest)

Deadspace Stasis Grappler - Strength Optimized 4 cap 2000ms 25 CPU 280 PG 300% overheat -87.5% speed 1000m optimal 9000m falloff - Centii

Deadspace Stasis Grappler - Fitting Optimized 4 cap 2000ms 10 CPU 100 PG 300% overheat -87% speed 1000m optimal 11000m falloff - Coreli


I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#144 - 2016-02-08 05:51:17 UTC
William Rokov wrote:
How long it can be overheated?



This is a really important point. If it burns out fast like a MWD, the 3km boost is much less significant than if it burns out as slowly as an armor hardener.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Mystical Might
Eclipse Pulsar
Fraternity.
#145 - 2016-02-08 05:53:35 UTC
Hi Fozzie,

I'm just a lowly officer-module using member of the community, so I was wondering whether you'd be able to give people the option, like you are with Triage Carriers -> FAX, to convert their modules into what they want?

A blanket change of officer webs into this... whatever it is, would remove plenty of play styles while not really adding much in the way of diversity... or fun. It would be way more effective to add these grapplers to the loot tables, while also providing the above option.

Think of the Vindis, the Bhaals, the Machs, the stupid recons, the supers...

Thanks
Random Scrub #1512612728318194


PS: Neuts were bad enough. Please not this.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#146 - 2016-02-08 05:54:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Carbon Alabel wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of the name, but it looks pretty solid otherwise, except for one thing: how efficient will it be at falloff range? If the strength falls close to zero at falloff range, I don't really see this as a viable alternative to regular webs.

At optimal+1x falloff, they are half of full strength.



You should probably elaborate more on this in the original post.

At optimal, 100% strength
Opt + 0.5 falloffs: ~84% strength
Opt + 1.0 falloffs: 50% strength
Opt + 1.5f: ~20% strength
Opt + 2f: 6.25% strength

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Zarvox Toral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2016-02-08 06:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarvox Toral
It's going to be interesting to see how this affects the phenomena of the plane of orbit rotating randomly when velocity is adjusted.

For anybody that doesn't know what I'm talking about - say you have ordered your ship to close on a target from 20km by ordering it to orbit at 500m. For arguments sake let's say this happens to put you into a horizontal orbital plane around the target. If you then decide to change your velocity manually to 3/4 full, or, you get webbed, the plane of your orbit will rotate randomly, sometimes dramatically, causing your ship to slow RIGHT DOWN (often very close to zero) as it adjusts to orbiting in a plane other than horizontal.

Let's say you again change your velocity to 1/2 speed, or get a second web placed onto you. Once again your ship can dramatically slow down as it decides to orbit in a whole new plane.

Now let's say I'm in a battleship with one of these grapple webs, and some dude comes in from 20km to tackle, and he's done so by selecting orbit @ 500 on me. If I web him as soon as I can, and his max velocity is constantly being adjusted as he gets closer and closer, wouldn't this cause absolute mayhem to his orbital plane and probably cause him to get blapped much faster than he should do as his orbital plane is constantly being rotated around?

This seems.... like it could be a big problem.

What's going to happen here? If the slowing effect of these new webs is anything like the existing webs, and they increase in strength (therefore gradually decreasing the targets max velocity) as the target gets closer, it seems to me that the target ship is going to be going completely bonkers as its max speed is constantly being adjusted by the increasing web strength during approach, and the orbital plane this ship is trying to get into is being flipped around randomly with every refresh of the web strength.
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#148 - 2016-02-08 07:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Borat Guereen
+1 for the concept, especialy making it a BS/Cap module only.
I also like the 300% optimal on overheating, that will require piloting skills from the player or risk seeing the module burned out early.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

We currently plan on converting existing officer webifiers into the officer versions of these new modules.

Could you provide some insights into the reasons why you consider this "conversion"? Do you have reasons to believe that the current stasis officer modules are overpowered?

Candidate for CSM XII
Formosus Funus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#149 - 2016-02-08 07:24:25 UTC
Cool new mod, but this really should be a AOE module. Or is that a role for perhaps a Command Destroyer kind of shiptype?

But I do believe it should be AOE. Once it was actually an art in PVP to get under the guns, even while being webbed at 90%. However, over time smaller ships got their speed increased, and it has become an art to actually hit something which is in low orbit.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2016-02-08 07:40:16 UTC
Another stillborn mod.

Made worse by all these limitations.. (hull, bonus, links etc.)
Anomilk Dairlylover
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#151 - 2016-02-08 07:42:32 UTC
Will grapplers be affected by black hole wormhole effects? i.e. web strength penalty
Lavayar
Haidamaky
UA Fleets
#152 - 2016-02-08 08:10:04 UTC
Looks cool.
But CCP should definitely think about AOE effect.
That should bring interesting new player experience.
Jackaryas
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#153 - 2016-02-08 08:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jackaryas
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#154 - 2016-02-08 08:22:30 UTC
Formosus Funus wrote:
Cool new mod, but this really should be a AOE module. Or is that a role for perhaps a Command Destroyer kind of shiptype?

But I do believe it should be AOE. Once it was actually an art in PVP to get under the guns, even while being webbed at 90%. However, over time smaller ships got their speed increased, and it has become an art to actually hit something which is in low orbit.


And achieve what? Creating squads of instawarping cruisers or whatever? Emergency warpouts for whole fleets if **** goes **** up? If this module was aoe I think every gank fleet in existence would want one. Every fleet of any imaginable composition would want them in pairs to immediately slingshot their whole fleet since it has 2second cycle it wears offf straight away too. Imagibe slippery petes with these. Or svipul gangs or literally any fleet ever.

In brief you idea is terrible.
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#155 - 2016-02-08 08:41:41 UTC
Zarvox Toral wrote:
It's going to be interesting to see how this affects the phenomena of the plane of orbit rotating randomly when velocity is adjusted.

...

What's going to happen here? If the slowing effect of these new webs is anything like the existing webs, and they increase in strength (therefore gradually decreasing the targets max velocity) as the target gets closer, it seems to me that the target ship is going to be going completely bonkers as its max speed is constantly being adjusted by the increasing web strength during approach, and the orbital plane this ship is trying to get into is being flipped around randomly with every refresh of the web strength.

Don't really see a huge problem here tbh - you can circumvent the issue entirely by orbiting manually, so it just makes the module more powerful against bad/lazy pilots while giving more skilled players an opportunity for counterplay.
Phase Three
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#156 - 2016-02-08 08:57:13 UTC
Very nice! really happy with this news Pirate
Solarus Explorer
The Veterans' Lounge
#157 - 2016-02-08 09:00:38 UTC
+1 to the idea.

I do think the webs could use more falloff though, to give the solo/small gang BS pilot some opportunity to catch a cruiser/frig kiting at 20km (note i said 'some' chance, not guarantee). I doubt a falloff of 14-15km would be too much for this module. It would also give solo BSs some incentive to fit a MWD instead of always using a MJD, since now with a MWD and grappler they could try to catch stuff that comes too close while orbiting in long point range.
Mystical Might
Eclipse Pulsar
Fraternity.
#158 - 2016-02-08 09:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mystical Might
Solarus Explorer wrote:
+1 to the idea.

I do think the webs could use more falloff though, to give the solo/small gang BS pilot some opportunity to catch a cruiser/frig kiting at 20km (note i said 'some' chance, not guarantee). I doubt a falloff of 14-15km would be too much for this module. It would also give solo BSs some incentive to fit a MWD instead of always using a MJD, since now with a MWD and grappler they could try to catch stuff that comes too close while orbiting in long point range.


The graph suggests that t2* will web out to 20+km as is. Faction and officer will go further; obviously it won't be as strong effect-wise, but it'll reach.
Cristl
#159 - 2016-02-08 09:11:50 UTC
Zarvox Toral wrote:
What's going to happen here? If the slowing effect of these new webs is anything like the existing webs, and they increase in strength (therefore gradually decreasing the targets max velocity) as the target gets closer, it seems to me that the target ship is going to be going completely bonkers as its max speed is constantly being adjusted by the increasing web strength during approach, and the orbital plane this ship is trying to get into is being flipped around randomly with every refresh of the web strength.

This is an interesting point. To be honest, could we not have a more sophisticated orbit command? I don't want the game playing itself for me, nor do I want to kill the hamsters with Bessel functions, but it must be possible to program a more intelligent algorithm that prioritises maintaining velocity more highly.
Zarvox Toral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2016-02-08 09:23:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarvox Toral
Cristl wrote:
Zarvox Toral wrote:
What's going to happen here? If the slowing effect of these new webs is anything like the existing webs, and they increase in strength (therefore gradually decreasing the targets max velocity) as the target gets closer, it seems to me that the target ship is going to be going completely bonkers as its max speed is constantly being adjusted by the increasing web strength during approach, and the orbital plane this ship is trying to get into is being flipped around randomly with every refresh of the web strength.

This is an interesting point. To be honest, could we not have a more sophisticated orbit command? I don't want the game playing itself for me, nor do I want to kill the hamsters with Bessel functions, but it must be possible to program a more intelligent algorithm that prioritises maintaining velocity more highly.


A new orbit command, perhaps with the ability to manually set or adjust the orbital plane would be great, but somehow I don't think that's gonna be happening anytime soon. One can only hope.

I've thought about this a lot over the past few hours and I really think it's gonna be absolute chaos. Since even infinitesimal adjustments to max velocity can cause massive rotations of the orbital plane (try orbiting something at 500m, then very slightly dropping your velocity, you'll see what I mean, your ship goes mental trying to attain the new orbit) and therefore this new grappler web, will very often cause the target ship to come to an almost complete stop before attempting to settle into a different orbital plane even at 20km away, and since many pilots use the orbit command to tackle, as soon as a tackler is webbed, even at opt+2*falloff (~20km or more), their ship will very often just flat out stop moving while still 20km from the target, slowly pick up velocity only to be stopped/severely slowed again, repeated every two seconds.

Unless CCP will be changing the way velocity adjustments cause havoc to your orbit, this is going to be a nightmare for tacklers. Tacklers are going to be blapped ridiculously easily from 20km even though the web effect is tiny at this range, because their ship will be potentially coming to a stop every 2 seconds when the web effect is refreshed, or recalculated, or whatever.

I should point out that it's actually great for me, I don't fly tackle in fleets, and when I fly solo BS I know that I can exploit the crap out of this to hugely slow/stop and blap frigs from 20km even with just a t2 grappler, but it does seem super, super broken to me.

I feel like I must be missing something though, because it just doesn't make sense that nobody has thought of this.

Plenty of people know about disengaging/re-engaging webs in order to provoke the change of orbital plane, reduce transversal briefly and score huge hits, so either a) I'm missing something massive, or b) these webs will be unbelievably overpowered because it's going to reduce transversal far beyond what is implied by the ~85% speed reduction at close range, and will be capable of stopping any orbiting ship in it's tracks every 2 seconds well beyond 20km.