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[March] Heavy Stasis Grapplers

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Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#81 - 2016-02-07 21:44:26 UTC
*dusts off trusty old blasterthron* Cool

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2016-02-07 21:45:10 UTC
Gigiarc wrote:
Theon Severasse wrote:
How will this work in conjunction with Vindi bonuses? I assume that it will still be stronger than normal, but I assume that it isn't going to go all the way up to 100% strength


Have you tried reading the post first?

Quote:
It's seperate from existing Stasis Webs, and doesn't get bonuses from any web-specific bonuses (so no range bonus on Bhaalgorns or strength bonus from Vindicators, and no benefit from gang links).



Did you try reading the other two comments saying the exact same thing? No, because reading is hard, and it's easier for someone else to point out obvious **** to you.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#83 - 2016-02-07 21:46:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Zhilia Mann wrote:
I made a pretty graph on tab 2.

This is definitely interesting. For both heated and unheated there's only a narrow window at the edge of normal web range where a normal web is actually better than these. It's an interesting concept.

Thank you for sharing that graph, shows clearly how these stack up vs normal webs.

I do think these could do with a bit of extra falloff, they become incredibly weak at longer ranges with standard webs outperforming them at around 10km to 12km. I'd suggest that CCP buffs the falloff on them.

Moac Tor wrote:
The main solution to BS balance is quite simple, increase BS EHP by around 25% and decrease T3 cruiser EHP by about 25% also. I'd like to see more BS/BC specific modules also.

Now we just need the EHP buff please CCP ^^
Bilbert lashlily
Toad Whipper's United
#84 - 2016-02-07 21:54:44 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Albert Madullier wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Alysha Saronn wrote:
Fozzie, can you do us all a favor here at eve and just leave the pvp and game design/balancing to someone who actually plays the damn game... I mean what the hell are you even thinking? 1km optimal web? are the devs and ccp stoned? What the hell are large turrets going to do to a frigate or dessie at 1km? even if you decide to move your aiding them.. Fall off on a webs is dumb and you should feel dumb..


You should feel dumb for thinking that BS should be able to solo frigates.


a battleship should be able to solo a frigate, your dumb for thinking it shouldn't


Nah, sorry, each ship should have a counter and the counter to a frigate inst a BS.


No arguments here. I just would like to be able to counter it, albeit worse at it then a frig desi or cruiser, but id like to be able to fit it up to counter it.
Esnaelc Sin'led
Lonesome Capsuleer
#85 - 2016-02-07 21:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Esnaelc Sin'led
No links / No boosts / No overheat

Concidering normal Optimal and Fall-Off rules with a T2 Graper :

T2 Graper = -85% speed // 1km Optimal // 10km FallOff
Optimal = 100%
FallOff = 50%
Optimal<->FallOff x2 = 10%


@01km (optimal) = -85% speed
@10km (falloff) = -42.5% speed
@~20km = -8.5% speed

(am i right ?)

PLUS can only fit ONE SINGLE graper.

Now Vindicator (Minmatar BS @5) with T2 web :

Range : 10km
Role bonnus : 10% per Matar BS skill level

From 0km to 10km : -90% speed

CAN STACK.

Conclusion :

Nope. Vindis aren't dead. AT ALL.

__________________________________________________

That being said, again, i would've thought CCP to be more creative and not just copying an existing eWar to push up BSs a bit.
Sad about that 'lost' creativity, but happy to see what could come out with that new module.
Oh, and please, do not convert actual webs, that would in fact as it happens, lower Bhaals and Vindis utility.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#86 - 2016-02-07 21:56:13 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
I made a pretty graph on tab 2.

This is definitely interesting. For both heated and unheated there's only a narrow window at the edge of normal web range where a normal web is actually better than these. It's an interesting concept.


could you also do it with the 34.5% interdiction fleet bonus? as that only applies to normal webs


Linked version up. Not sure whether to include the bonus on optimal for the new module. Right now assuming not.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#87 - 2016-02-07 21:57:41 UTC
yeh. the graphs show that T2 vs T2 is spot on, but as soon as you add links, or up the meta, the grapples become worse than their web counterparts.

up the optimal 2, 3 or 4km, knock that oh bonus down a little. and add 20/25% falloff. this will make them useful instead of just niech
Lucas Quaan
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#88 - 2016-02-07 21:58:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We currently plan on converting existing officer webifiers into the officer versions of these new modules.

I might be a niche application, but certain Bhaal/Vindi pilots would probably prefer if you didn't do this.
Ron Mexxico
ElitistOps
Deepwater Hooligans
#89 - 2016-02-07 21:59:52 UTC
Alysha Saronn wrote:
I mean you alliance flys supers/caps no? when the **** are you dropping them at 1km from anything?

ALL DA TIME
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#90 - 2016-02-07 21:59:58 UTC
Does this mean my anom ratting dread is a thing?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#91 - 2016-02-07 22:02:36 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
yeh. the graphs show that T2 vs T2 is spot on, but as soon as you add links, or up the meta, the grapples become worse than their web counterparts.

up the optimal 2, 3 or 4km, knock that oh bonus down a little. and add 20/25% falloff. this will make them useful instead of just niech


I'm going to have to agree on the problem. I haven't run the numbers on a solution, but the FN web still absolutely wins out. Links are interesting; they obviously help normal webs more but I'd like to know for sure whether they add to optimal of grapples as that does tweak things a bit. Officer... isn't even close.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#92 - 2016-02-07 22:03:13 UTC
Albert Madullier wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Albert Madullier wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Alysha Saronn wrote:
Fozzie, can you do us all a favor here at eve and just leave the pvp and game design/balancing to someone who actually plays the damn game... I mean what the hell are you even thinking? 1km optimal web? are the devs and ccp stoned? What the hell are large turrets going to do to a frigate or dessie at 1km? even if you decide to move your aiding them.. Fall off on a webs is dumb and you should feel dumb..


You should feel dumb for thinking that BS should be able to solo frigates.


a battleship should be able to solo a frigate, your dumb for thinking it shouldn't


Nah, sorry, each ship should have a counter and the counter to a frigate inst a BS.


you honestly believe a BS shouldn't be able to solo a frigate? wtf are you smoking


I'm not the only one who feels that way, evidently the game designers thing its bad too. Have fun with that one.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Alexxei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#93 - 2016-02-07 22:06:28 UTC
Anything to combat the frigate menace is A OK in my book.

While you're at it, take another look at removing the nullification from interceptors. Nullification, while still maintaning any combat ability at all is dumb and bad and leads to coward gameplay and tactics.

This game should encourage people to fight not run away.
Worthy Angel
Lilith LLC
#94 - 2016-02-07 22:10:57 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Ncc 1709 wrote:
yeh. the graphs show that T2 vs T2 is spot on, but as soon as you add links, or up the meta, the grapples become worse than their web counterparts.

up the optimal 2, 3 or 4km, knock that oh bonus down a little. and add 20/25% falloff. this will make them useful instead of just niech


I'm going to have to agree on the problem. I haven't run the numbers on a solution, but the FN web still absolutely wins out. Links are interesting; they obviously help normal webs more but I'd like to know for sure whether they add to optimal of grapples as that does tweak things a bit. Officer... isn't even close.

In a MJD battleship, I only care about hitting things within scram range. Based on the graphs, these webs are comparable or better in that range, unless I'm going up against interceptors or links.
Ohh Yeah
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#95 - 2016-02-07 22:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ohh Yeah
Would rather have seen a module (BS-size only) that produces a shield reducing all damage in (or out) by 75% and reducing EWAR effectiveness by as much. If you want to fight the solo battleship, you go inside the sphere or you don't break his tank (and he doesn't do much damage to you either). Clearly put a restriction such that the shield can't be turned on if there's another active within 50km or something (to prevent abuse in large-scale PvP)

The reason solo BS blows is because you get kited and EWAR'd to **** and can't land tackle on cruisers plinking away at 20km+, not because you can't deal with frigates orbiting at 500m..
Helene Fidard
CTRL-Q
#96 - 2016-02-07 22:13:21 UTC
cool, another stealth buff to kiting

neato mod though

Hey! I don't know about you

but I'm joining CTRL-Q
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#97 - 2016-02-07 22:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
Thinking about it, converting officer mods is a really bad idea and while I don't normally care about officer mods, don't do it. In fact this mod is so niche it doesn't need officer or even faction variants, just introduce T1, meta, T2. Officer webs are really useful, officer grapplers are paperweights.

EDIT: Pun unintended.
Cameron Bohannon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2016-02-07 22:16:06 UTC
I really like the idea of these new modules. I just think the falloff range is a little too short. instead of 10 km i think something like 15 km on the t2 version would be more fitting. This is because a battleship with large blasters and void will get over 10 km falloff. You will not even be able to web something that would be within your damage application range.

example:

T2 large neutron blasters with void = 6.8 km optimal, 13.1 km falloff,
T2 large 800 mm auto cannons with hail = 3 km optimal, 21 km falloff
T2 Mega Pulse Lasers with Conflagration = 16 km optimal, 29 km falloff
T2 Torpedo Launchers with Rage = 16.9 km range

These are all pulled from EFT on unbonused ships.

Even when using the smallest large weapon systems, almost all of them get over 15 km falloff or optimal. The only one that does not get over 10 km falloff is an T2 Electron blaster with void (it gets 8.3 km falloff). Lets be honest. You are not going to be able to web anything in a battleship when most of the meta today is all kite fits such as arty svipuls. Which means even tho they are within your gun range when using the shortest range ammo, you can still not track them. Switch to long range weapon systems and it is even worse. If you move the falloff of these webs to around 15 km, you would then be able to web arty svipuls using phased plasma, but even then, the webs will more than likely not effect the speed enough to even matter. So why use these instead of normal webs when i would need to be around 4 km(is a guess) away from anything to get the normal application of what a normal web would be.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#99 - 2016-02-07 22:23:49 UTC
Can marauders fit them? This is a pretty important question.
I'm not sure if BS includes marauders and blops in that bracket.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Nou Mene
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#100 - 2016-02-07 22:24:03 UTC
k, i didnt liked the idea at first... after watching graphs (yours and mine) i feel that they are a good addition for BS. (actually RIP current web unless you in a bhaal or vindi; waiting for disclosure on future link mechanics)

My only concern is how higher meta grapplers dont get a proportional bonus at overheating.
You get more, relatively speaking, in a meta 1 grappler vs a meta 17.

best regards, keep the good work