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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Tau Phoenix
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#1801 - 2016-02-03 18:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Phoenix
Memphis Baas wrote:
Tau Phoenix wrote:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.


So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever.
Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever.

Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities.



Hi Memphis. I see your point at its conclusion but the way i look at this is:

Two new players join Eve online on the same day. Charatcer 1 is a rich kid. Character 2 is not.

Character 1 doesn't want to train in the traditional time sense but does not have any ISK to buy SP from the market. Of course the way he can do this is buy buying PLEX for real money, selling the PLEX for ISK on the market and therefore obtaining the ISK to buy the SP Injectors.

Character 2 can not financially afford to do this.

So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status?
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#1802 - 2016-02-03 18:55:57 UTC
Tau Phoenix wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Tau Phoenix wrote:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.


So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever.
Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever.

Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities.



Hi Memphis. I see your point at its conclusion but the way i look at this is like this:

Two new players join Eve online on the same day. Charatcer 1 is a rich kid. Character 2 is not.

Character 1 doesn't want to train in the traditional time sense but does not have any ISK to buy SP from the market. Of course the way he can do this is buy buying PLEX for real money, selling the PLEX for ISK on the market and therfore obtaining the ISK to buy the SP Injectors.

Character 2 can not financially afford to do this.

So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status?

Character 1 sells PLEX for isk. Buys from character bazaar. (or ebay)

Whats the difference?

Character bazaar is cheaper.
Lavitias Arjar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1803 - 2016-02-03 19:39:05 UTC
Tau Phoenix wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Tau Phoenix wrote:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.


So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever.
Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever.

Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities.



Hi Memphis. I see your point at its conclusion but the way i look at this is:

Two new players join Eve online on the same day. Charatcer 1 is a rich kid. Character 2 is not.

Character 1 doesn't want to train in the traditional time sense but does not have any ISK to buy SP from the market. Of course the way he can do this is buy buying PLEX for real money, selling the PLEX for ISK on the market and therefore obtaining the ISK to buy the SP Injectors.

Character 2 can not financially afford to do this.

So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status?


Character 1 can already do that it's called the character Bazaar and he'd probably get a character with a whole hell of a lot more skill points off the bazaar also. Don't forget SP doesn't necessarily = win
Memphis Baas
#1804 - 2016-02-04 00:31:35 UTC
Tau Phoenix wrote:
So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status?


It's not just Character Bazaar, though:

Neither 1 nor 2 are likely to compete against each other; both of them are facing the 30,000 veterans who are already flying big ships. The rich kid will jump in an expensive ship and get killed by veterans, whereas the poor kid will look like a true newbie and get showered with advice, small gifts, and invitations to join corps.

The SP's don't do anything if you sit in station; you need to buy and fly ships to do anything with the SP, and it's counter-intuitive, but big expensive ships are happiness for whoever kills you, not for yourself. The poor kid will have a better gaming experience than the rich kid.

The rich kid will get killed and harassed repeatedly by everyone who hates this change, for daring to use injectors.
Duke Paradox
The Forsakened Few
We Forsakened Few
#1805 - 2016-02-04 05:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Duke Paradox
Tau Phoenix wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Tau Phoenix wrote:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.


So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever.
Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever.

Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities.



Hi Memphis. I see your point at its conclusion but the way i look at this is:

Two new players join Eve online on the same day. Charatcer 1 is a rich kid. Character 2 is not.

Character 1 doesn't want to train in the traditional time sense but does not have any ISK to buy SP from the market. Of course the way he can do this is buy buying PLEX for real money, selling the PLEX for ISK on the market and therefore obtaining the ISK to buy the SP Injectors.

Character 2 can not financially afford to do this.

So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status?



Here's another scenario...

Rich kid subscribes to EVE while in his teenage years. Poor kid can't afford it so he doesn't subscribe. For eight years the poor kid works hard, finishes school, goes to college and then gets a real job. Now poor kid can fulfill his life long dream to subscribe to EVE and be a space pirate. All the while, rich kid has been subscribed to EVE accumulating SPs. He has like 200m SPs now and flies officer-fit Tengoos. Why the hell does rich kid get to have all the SPs and eight years of EVE awesomeness, while poor kid slaved away collecting soda cans and ****?

Now with SP trading, rich kid can sell SP to keep plexing his account because hes not rich anymore. He wasted 8 years playing EVE and developed a meth habit. He sells SPs to poor kid. Poor kid gets all the SP and the Bolsheviks rise up and slay the capitalist pigs.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#1806 - 2016-02-04 08:59:26 UTC
The amount of flimsy excuses in this thread to justify Pay2Progress is mind-boggling.

Im not sure if the people who post these excuses are disguised CCP marketing employees or alts of space rich and powerblock leaders (who want a new tool to reinfoce their position) or just trolls.
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
#1807 - 2016-02-04 09:17:04 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
The amount of flimsy excuses in this thread to justify Pay2Progress is mind-boggling.

Im not sure if the people who post these excuses are disguised CCP marketing employees or alts of space rich and powerblock leaders (who want a new tool to reinfoce their position) or just trolls.

All of the above :D
Venus Aka
Doomheim
#1808 - 2016-02-04 09:41:55 UTC
Tau Phoenix wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Tau Phoenix wrote:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.


So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever.
Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever.

Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities.



Hi Memphis. I see your point at its conclusion but the way i look at this is:

Two new players join Eve online on the same day. Charatcer 1 is a rich kid. Character 2 is not.

Character 1 doesn't want to train in the traditional time sense but does not have any ISK to buy SP from the market. Of course the way he can do this is buy buying PLEX for real money, selling the PLEX for ISK on the market and therefore obtaining the ISK to buy the SP Injectors.

Character 2 can not financially afford to do this.

So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status?



Tired about the nonesense analogies of rich/poor kid - eitherway, as of right now, rich-new-to-game kid can buy a high sp character from the bazaar. Which by logic is also contradicts the ''...investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time..''

At the end of each and everyone's agendas into this topic, there are only 2 sides; A) some people can afford years into the game to refine theirs skills, and farm for hours for ingame cash and/or refine their skills; and B) others cannot afford to invest that much time into the game - hence they'll rather pay to accelerate their SP gain or buy a high sp character. Only one difference is that, the former has more in-game experience than the latter - as in sitting in a ship and flying it are worlds apart.

And unless you actually care about the new players, and for the evolution of Eve online (versus your ego and wallet) and actively recruit and support new people into the game, you won't have a clue of the importance sp-trade in the eve-lives of newbros.
David Semris
Doomheim
#1809 - 2016-02-04 10:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: David Semris
So next week right?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1810 - 2016-02-04 15:24:28 UTC
Venus Aka wrote:


Tired about the nonesense analogies of rich/poor kid - eitherway, as of right now, rich-new-to-game kid can buy a high sp character from the bazaar. Which by logic is also contradicts the ''...investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time..''


The rich kid who buys a character is also buying that characters warts. Such as skills that are useless to the buyer (if you are buying a pvp toon, thos emining skills are useless, for example), employment history, probably a silly as hell name etc etc.

The rich kid that can now buy SP is buying pure advantage with no down side. The Character bazaar is a necessary evil (because people will buy accounts/characters regardless) that just straddles the line of the principle involved and is balanced by it's faults.

SP trading doesn't just cross the line, it erases it.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#1811 - 2016-02-04 15:26:35 UTC
All those arguments does not change one simple thing: THIS IS A PAY-TO-WIN FEATURE.
First of a kind. You let it now = you will end with tons of them later on.

Two chars, both 2 days old, flying same frigate. One have all level 5 other barely level 2 or 3 for some of them. DPS, EHP of ships will be most likely 2:1. Rich char suggests duel with an argument : we started the same day. Result: frustrated not-so-rich newbee leave the game for some fair alternatives like world of warships (free-to-play, no pay-to-win, matchmaker, instant fights etc...)

Farewell, EVE...

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
Duke Paradox
The Forsakened Few
We Forsakened Few
#1812 - 2016-02-04 15:44:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Duke Paradox
erg cz wrote:
All those arguments does not change one simple thing: THIS IS A PAY-TO-WIN FEATURE.
First of a kind. You let it now = you will end with tons of them later on.

Two chars, both 2 days old, flying same frigate. One have all level 5 other barely level 2 or 3 for some of them. DPS, EHP of ships will be most likely 2:1. Rich char suggests duel with an argument : we started the same day. Result: frustrated not-so-rich newbee leave the game for some fair alternatives like world of warships (free-to-play, no pay-to-win, matchmaker, instant fights etc...)

Farewell, EVE...


This is a stupid point. Have you ever been in a 1v1 fight? The last thing you should be doing is calculating the other guy's skill points. RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL and overheat all the things. That's what you need to be thinking about. A fight between two people with the exact same ships, fits, and SP, almost never happens. Someone always has an advantage. That's the name of the game... Theory crafting an unusual fit will win you more fight than a 5% increase to DPS for 20 days skill training to level V.

If you are looking at character's age before fighting them you're doing it wrong. My old main had 80m SP but I found it difficult to find fun fights because risk averse folks like yourself looking at my age. I rolled a new toon, trained him into a focused Atron and had a blast killing vets with a 1 month old guy. That isn't how it should be. The opinion that SP mean so freaking much is hurting the game. If this change does anything, I hope it does away with this mentality of checking a pilot's age before you engage. Just man-up and engage already!

EDIT: I want to add, the Pay-To-Win bullshit makes me laugh. EVE isn't a game you win. You may win a fight or lose a fight but at the end of the day you go on and do something bigger than that one fight. EVE is about building relationships and having fun however you decide to do it. In a sandbox game where you set your own goals, winning comes from within yourself and cannot be attained with just SP. So this idea that buying SP will help you win EVE is ridiculous. I've been playing a racing game from EA on my phone that pings me for an in-game purchase daily... drive new more powerful cars and win races... only $9.99. That's ******* pay-to-win. I cannot even play the stupid game without feeding them more money. Here, you can continue to play EVE and access all its content at the regular pace or you can accelerate it if you want. Nobody is forcing you one way or the other.
Shova'k
The Bank Of Jita
#1813 - 2016-02-04 16:30:00 UTC
Duke Paradox wrote:


This is a stupid point. Have you ever been in a 1v1 fight? The last thing you should be doing is calculating the other guy's skill points. RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL and overheat all the things. That's what you need to be thinking about. A fight between two people with the exact same ships, fits, and SP, almost never happens. Someone always has an advantage. That's the name of the game... Theory crafting an unusual fit will win you more fight than a 5% increase to DPS for 20 days skill training to level V.

If you are looking at character's age before fighting them you're doing it wrong. My old main had 80m SP but I found it difficult to find fun fights because risk averse folks like yourself looking at my age. I rolled a new toon, trained him into a focused Atron and had a blast killing vets with a 1 month old guy. That isn't how it should be. The opinion that SP mean so freaking much is hurting the game. If this change does anything, I hope it does away with this mentality of checking a pilot's age before you engage. Just man-up and engage already!

EDIT: I want to add, the Pay-To-Win bullshit makes me laugh. EVE isn't a game you win. You may win a fight or lose a fight but at the end of the day you go on and do something bigger than that one fight. EVE is about building relationships and having fun however you decide to do it. In a sandbox game where you set your own goals, winning comes from within yourself and cannot be attained with just SP. So this idea that buying SP will help you win EVE is ridiculous. I've been playing a racing game from EA on my phone that pings me for an in-game purchase daily... drive new more powerful cars and win races... only $9.99. That's ******* pay-to-win. I cannot even play the stupid game without feeding them more money. Here, you can continue to play EVE and access all its content at the regular pace or you can accelerate it if you want. Nobody is forcing you one way or the other.



the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol.

the only thing you can do is pay to save time nothing more nothing less you still have to not suck at the game to make use of what you buy this is actually weaker then the character bazaar i mean come on you know people are gonna over charge like hell for the injectors and if ur over 5 mill sp they are practicly worthless and you would get more bang for your isk buying a specialized character on the bazzar. either way you still have to learn how to do the stuff you plan to do other wise your just gonna make some one's day by becoming a tasty gank or kill for them. example is people who drop money on plex buy a character and then jump in a pirate BS or marauder and put 5-50 billion in officier/deadspace and faction gear on it then try to run missions in high sec then wonder why 20 catalyst gank them. people who buy a carrier or dread pilot then try to use it to do missions in low sec then get killed. (and before caps could use gates they would be at a gate trying to jump then get pissed when they get killed by a gang)

but like the terrorist who believe they get their 72 virgins (which will most likely be the 72 guys who went before them lol or wow players lol) the people who think any type of real life money into a game is pay to win will never change their views. i had some idiots in npc corp chat claim that the ship skins are pay to win lol you just cant change the perception of people with one track minds.

this system is limited and will be very expensive useless to any one who isnt a millionare in real life or a trillion iskare in game since the injectors will be very expensive since you have to factor the cost of aurm + the cost of isk/sp at 500 k sp just cause the injector will be worth less for people over 5 mill sp dont mean sellers are gonna care every sp is worth invested time to them.

cry babies who think this is pay to win get off your soap box and stop being trolls and learn to actually think before you rage.
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#1814 - 2016-02-04 16:34:15 UTC
Shova'k wrote:
Duke Paradox wrote:


This is a stupid point. Have you ever been in a 1v1 fight? The last thing you should be doing is calculating the other guy's skill points. RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL and overheat all the things. That's what you need to be thinking about. A fight between two people with the exact same ships, fits, and SP, almost never happens. Someone always has an advantage. That's the name of the game... Theory crafting an unusual fit will win you more fight than a 5% increase to DPS for 20 days skill training to level V.

If you are looking at character's age before fighting them you're doing it wrong. My old main had 80m SP but I found it difficult to find fun fights because risk averse folks like yourself looking at my age. I rolled a new toon, trained him into a focused Atron and had a blast killing vets with a 1 month old guy. That isn't how it should be. The opinion that SP mean so freaking much is hurting the game. If this change does anything, I hope it does away with this mentality of checking a pilot's age before you engage. Just man-up and engage already!

EDIT: I want to add, the Pay-To-Win bullshit makes me laugh. EVE isn't a game you win. You may win a fight or lose a fight but at the end of the day you go on and do something bigger than that one fight. EVE is about building relationships and having fun however you decide to do it. In a sandbox game where you set your own goals, winning comes from within yourself and cannot be attained with just SP. So this idea that buying SP will help you win EVE is ridiculous. I've been playing a racing game from EA on my phone that pings me for an in-game purchase daily... drive new more powerful cars and win races... only $9.99. That's ******* pay-to-win. I cannot even play the stupid game without feeding them more money. Here, you can continue to play EVE and access all its content at the regular pace or you can accelerate it if you want. Nobody is forcing you one way or the other.



the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol.

the only thing you can do is pay to save time nothing more nothing less you still have to not suck at the game to make use of what you buy this is actually weaker then the character bazaar i mean come on you know people are gonna over charge like hell for the injectors and if ur over 5 mill sp they are practicly worthless and you would get more bang for your isk buying a specialized character on the bazzar. either way you still have to learn how to do the stuff you plan to do other wise your just gonna make some one's day by becoming a tasty gank or kill for them. example is people who drop money on plex buy a character and then jump in a pirate BS or marauder and put 5-50 billion in officier/deadspace and faction gear on it then try to run missions in high sec then wonder why 20 catalyst gank them. people who buy a carrier or dread pilot then try to use it to do missions in low sec then get killed. (and before caps could use gates they would be at a gate trying to jump then get pissed when they get killed by a gang)

but like the terrorist who believe they get their 72 virgins (which will most likely be the 72 guys who went before them lol or wow players lol) the people who think any type of real life money into a game is pay to win will never change their views. i had some idiots in npc corp chat claim that the ship skins are pay to win lol you just cant change the perception of people with one track minds.

this system is limited and will be very expensive useless to any one who isnt a millionare in real life or a trillion iskare in game since the injectors will be very expensive since you have to factor the cost of aurm + the cost of isk/sp at 500 k sp just cause the injector will be worth less for people over 5 mill sp dont mean sellers are gonna care every sp is worth invested time to them.

cry babies who think this is pay to win get off your soap box and stop being trolls and learn to actually think before you rage.

I agree. But I do need to point out one thing.

That first paragraph of yours gave me the mind's image of them strapping interns to a chair with that giant metal helmet, and doing experiments to try to make that idea come true.

RIP Interns, they knew what they were getting into.


P.S. The 72 virgins are all US Marine Drill Sergeants. W8ing to make sure the terrorist regrets the afterlife as much as he regrets life.
Mintoko
Taedium In Perpetuam
#1815 - 2016-02-04 19:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mintoko
Shova'k wrote:
the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. .



If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you?
jason hill
Red vs Blue Flight Academy
#1816 - 2016-02-04 19:11:58 UTC
I think I`m going to express my anger at this change ....in the form of expressive dance !
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#1817 - 2016-02-04 19:18:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lasisha Mishi
Mintoko wrote:
Duke Paradox wrote:
the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. .



If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you?

We Americans delivering freedom whether you like it or not, or in this case progress.



and whether we in the right country we supposed to be liberating...or not
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/27/4f/83/274f83d9a316835555770c1289373c3c.jpg

(sorry i couldnt resist pulling the American joke and the "free random country" joke, you sorta set it up for me to say that so perfectly~)
Zoe Jackes
Neurosurgical Reconstruction Centre
#1818 - 2016-02-04 19:55:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoe Jackes
Mintoko wrote:



If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you?


Right.
Duke Paradox
The Forsakened Few
We Forsakened Few
#1819 - 2016-02-04 20:08:15 UTC
Mintoko wrote:
Duke Paradox wrote:
the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. .



If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you?


Hey *******, learn to quote. I didnt type this.
Mintoko
Taedium In Perpetuam
#1820 - 2016-02-04 20:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mintoko
Duke Paradox wrote:

Hey *******, learn to quote. I didnt type this.



Sorry...that's what happens when one tries to manually edit a multi-quote.

Also, language