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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1681 - 2016-01-30 01:17:54 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.

You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise.


It is a force multiplier, and will be used as such.
Now that your competitor(s) are injecting, you will feel compelled to crank up your own fleets to match.
Where 'nearly-perfect' skills were okay you will see 'perfect-skills' required.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1682 - 2016-01-30 01:19:40 UTC
Maybe they will sell 'fatigue-reduction' injectors too...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1683 - 2016-01-30 01:20:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.

You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise.


It is a force multiplier, and will be used as such.
Now that your competitor(s) are injecting, you will feel compelled to crank up your own fleets to match.
Where 'nearly-perfect' skills were okay you will see 'perfect-skills' required.
I suppose than means most won't be able to play then? Because it's pretty much impossible for that to happen.

For that matter why hasn't it happened already. Does no one think anyone else trains skills to level 5 as is?
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1684 - 2016-01-30 01:37:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.

You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise.


It is a force multiplier, and will be used as such.
Now that your competitor(s) are injecting, you will feel compelled to crank up your own fleets to match.
Where 'nearly-perfect' skills were okay you will see 'perfect-skills' required.
I suppose than means most won't be able to play then? Because it's pretty much impossible for that to happen.

For that matter why hasn't it happened already. Does no one think anyone else trains skills to level 5 as is?


As just one example
A new ship is released (ie T3 Destroyer, T2 command, etc). Fleets can now train up as soon as the skillbooks hit the market and gain a significant advantage over their opponents, who are passively training.

I can think of many examples where the wealth to afford SP injectors will be a huge advantage. Stop being so narrow minded...sigh...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1685 - 2016-01-30 01:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
As just one example
A new ship is released (ie T3 Destroyer, T2 command, etc). Fleets can now train up as soon as the skillbooks hit the market and gain a significant advantage over their opponents, who are passively training.

I can think of many examples where the wealth to afford SP injectors will be a huge advantage. Stop being so narrow minded...sigh...
Who's arguing it won't be an advantage?

I'm trying to figure out where and how it would create a mandate, as you claimed.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1686 - 2016-01-30 01:44:08 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Maybe they will sell 'fatigue-reduction' injectors too...


They should bring back clones with SP limits and SP loss upon podded if clone not upgraded. At some level this should compensate upcoming massive SP flow.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
MAS0RAKSH
Doomheim
#1687 - 2016-01-30 05:59:46 UTC
112 injectors to go from 5mil to 50mil SP

100 injectors to move along from 50mil SP to 80mil SP

1466 imjectors to go from 80mil SP to 300mil SP

It would be sad to see an alliance, out of sheer spite or amusement, create 1700 injectors in 84 days (training new alt up is easy peasy), and then see http://eveboard.com/pilot/Dr_Caymus with his 286,519,976 million earned skillpoints from May 16, 2003 at 22:51:00 in the evening to the moments before some newbro toon named after someone's **** injects 1700 SP boosters for 300 mil SP.

Game ******* Over. 1 day old toon just wrecked eve; 84 days later another 300mil Sp toon, and 84 after that another... Imagine the hell this is going to play with the game because your players love ******* over your well intentioned features in ways illegal in 97 nations until you realize you unleased a monster.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1688 - 2016-01-30 06:06:41 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That assumes the cost isn't passed on to the market. There doesn't seem to be any reason to make that assumption unless you're assuming a near-fixed injector price. If you view them as elastic you have to consider the possibility that they just expand to any added cost, especially with the high point of initial demand.


I can only speculate about the minimum fixed price, being attractive near half the value of the injector SP against the monthly value of a plex in its respective training time. I don't think I'm wrong to think there will be a consistent buy order of at least 200-250 mil. But unlike any other resource, SP cannot rise or fall to meet demand in any sustained way or by the investment of time or number of farms - especially after plex rises to an untenable level for SP farming. That won't be seen in the short term. I believe supply can keep up with demand initially, due to the large number of SP currently unwanted, unused, or primed for selling. So high demand is driving both the seller and high supply the buyer. And much like petrol in the states being $2 bucks a gallon, it is not a sustainable resource in its present form. Neither will SP be due to its unique association with plex and the training time on which it relies to exist and to also be created through. It is Pizza The Hut devouring its cheap delicious self.
Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1689 - 2016-01-30 06:18:19 UTC
The cost aside, I believe if someone artificially enhances there character via SP injection(s) that should be reflected in that characters info, if not it's close to game breaking in my opinion.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#1690 - 2016-01-30 06:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: HeXxploiT
CCP Quant wrote:
HeXxploiT wrote:
So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game.
This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.

If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.

Silly



No you're missing the point Smile I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live.


Yeah...no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the desirability of this item will be through the roof. Will easily surpass skin purchases in time(which I know is currently 500,000+). People will dump buckets of both $$$ and isk into this particularly at the start.
I know right off the top of my head where I could spend 20,000,000 SP. Cool

SP will be the gold pressed latinum of Eve.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1691 - 2016-01-30 06:43:09 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That assumes the cost isn't passed on to the market. There doesn't seem to be any reason to make that assumption unless you're assuming a near-fixed injector price. If you view them as elastic you have to consider the possibility that they just expand to any added cost, especially with the high point of initial demand.


I can only speculate about the minimum fixed price, being attractive near half the value of the injector SP against the monthly value of a plex in its respective training time. I don't think I'm wrong to think there will be a consistent buy order of at least 200-250 mil. But unlike any other resource, SP cannot rise or fall to meet demand in any sustained way or by the investment of time or number of farms - especially after plex rises to an untenable level for SP farming. That won't be seen in the short term. I believe supply can keep up with demand initially, due to the large number of SP currently unwanted, unused, or primed for selling. So high demand is driving both the seller and high supply the buyer. And much like petrol in the states being $2 bucks a gallon, it is not a sustainable resource in its present form. Neither will SP be due to its unique association with plex and the training time on which it relies to exist and to also be created through. It is Pizza The Hut devouring its cheap delicious self.
You're expectation only seems to take into account an estimated cost rather than demand, and I'm not sure demand will be met by the initial influx of SP, especially since one can renew demand just by rolling an alt. It will likely taper in time, but it won't be immediate and we have diminishing returns working against the effects of that initial stock. I don't think we'll be working with a floored price from the start.

But that really doesn't address the lack of benefit for a high extractor price. In order for that "waste" SP you're referring to to hit the market, the SP market has to be gainful, which means a more than marginal return after the extractor cost is accounted for, which means if a high extractor cost pushed profitable injector costs beyond willingness to buy, that surge of injectors doesn't happen and their availability fails.

And realistically a high extractor price just pushes up PLEX that much higher, looking again at a 500AUR price vs 100AUR, unless the response with the 500AUR extractor is 20% of what it would have been with the 100AUR price point the upward effect on PLEX prices is greater. It's simple math. It doesn't mean PLEX can't go up, just that if it does, which is very likely, it happens slower than with a high extractor price.

It's simple, every demand for more AUR just pushes PLEX further up as a source of AUR. A high extractor cost is more demand for AUR than a low extractor one unless you're so high that you stop players from actually shedding their spare SP. Also you penalize use not related to selling. People using it as an SP remap have only the extractor cost and efficiency loss to be concerned about and don't contribute or detract from farming yet would be adversely affected by a high price. No one wins here.
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#1692 - 2016-01-30 06:46:27 UTC
Another thing I just realized.

The race is on. Which Trillionair will be the first to have all skills in eve trained to Lvl5. Until now it wasn't even possible.
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1693 - 2016-01-30 08:29:52 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
Another thing I just realized.

The race is on. Which Trillionair will be the first to have all skills in eve trained to Lvl5. Until now it wasn't even possible.


It has not been possible on one character. But it is naive to think that these trillionaires does not have access to all skills divided between alts now. Especially with the character bazar and all. People assume it is an advantage to have everything on one char but it is not really imo, as you cannot do all activities at once in this case. If you multibox more chars it is more powerfull. So I would rather expect to see more alts when SP trading arrives

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1694 - 2016-01-30 08:50:28 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
HeXxploiT wrote:
Another thing I just realized.

The race is on. Which Trillionair will be the first to have all skills in eve trained to Lvl5. Until now it wasn't even possible.


It has not been possible on one character. But it is naive to think that these trillionaires does not have access to all skills divided between alts now. Especially with the character bazar and all. People assume it is an advantage to have everything on one char but it is not really imo, as you cannot do all activities at once in this case. If you multibox more chars it is more powerfull. So I would rather expect to see more alts when SP trading arrives


Just wait until we reach a tipping point in terms of perfect alts online. Then we'll start getting moe and more calls to get rid of skills all together...'for the newbies' of course...
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1695 - 2016-01-30 09:14:54 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
Another thing I just realized.

The race is on. Which Trillionair will be the first to have all skills in eve trained to Lvl5. Until now it wasn't even possible.


i don't get it; why should this be a "problem"?
if someone wants to spend some hundred billions for his "all lvl V" char, well, how is that affecting me? it's not like we play "duels online" or something; he can only fly one ship at a time, you know? how will " trade lvl V" affect his pvp "advantage" ?
if done, it will be done for bragging rights on forums, and if someone spends that much money for that, well, who give a s**t?
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1696 - 2016-01-30 11:10:57 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
But unlike any other resource, SP cannot rise or fall to meet demand in any sustained way or by the investment of time or number of farms - especially after plex rises to an untenable level for SP farming. That won't be seen in the short term.

In the short term things will be nuts. But in the long term, SP farms are near perfect farms. You can increase or decrease production almost arbitrarily. More demand? Increase the number of alts. Less demand? Stop PLEXing some alts. Importantly, those alts do not decay or anything like that. When demand comes back, just PLEX them again. On top of that there is absolutely zero risk. You can station all you SP farm alts right in the trade hub where you want to sell. Neither you nor your alts ever have to undock or do anything that could expose you to risk. People talk of shooting ships with tons of SP injectors as cargo. I doubt that we will see much of that. If you have to ship many SP injectors, then you are doing something wrong.

The only thing mildly annoying here are the long time constants. You need to train a fresh alt up to 5.5M SP, and that takes months. But once you have a stable of alts it's not an issue. You can train up a "reserve" of alts, a bit like electricity companies have reserve power plants to switch on when demand goes on. They cost you nothing past the initial investment. Furthermore, you can only PLEX for a month, so if the market shifts you reaction time is slow. Though on a big SP farm this can be mitigated by "staggered" PLEXing (Alt 1's subscription starts on day 1, Alt 2's subscription starts on day 2, ...). If demand drops, you can then decrease your output daily.

If you have say 10 alts with >5.5M now, you are sitting on an ISK printing machine. Look at the prices of the level +5 implants. They have all been steadily increasing. I bet smart people are getting their SP farms set up right now, and will pump SP in the market from day one (at least if demand outstrips supply from "unwanted" SP that people just strip off characters to make them "perfect").

Personally, I don't have an army of alts. And I don't have the cash/ISK to buy them, or to start training dozens of alts for a few months to get them over the SP threshold. The initial investment is killing me, or I would be setting up a SP farm as well.

But if anyone wants to donate a >5.5M SP alt or two to me, I will happily take them!
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1697 - 2016-01-30 11:29:55 UTC

Yeah. True. PVP is one ship at a time.

If you if you can get a character to max gunnery, drones, tanking sensory and navigation on one ship, who cares what other ships that same character knows? So with a focused character, somewhere around 50 mil sp (maybe even less) your PVP skills peak, and then never go up after that.


CCP Quant wrote:
Cixi wrote:
CCP Quant wrote:
HeXxploiT wrote:
So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game.
This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.

If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.

Silly



No you're missing the point Smile I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live.


Well the maximum price for SP will be 0.25, if the composite price for injector is more than that, people will start SP farms, it will most likely be less than that, at least at first


Yeah we can already see from the character bazaar that people are willing to sell SPs below training cost. The upper limit depends a bit on supply and demand, but as you say, if the conditions are favorable, players will turn to SP farming.


The reason for that is less than ideal builds, and characters with no remaps.

I wish on the 07 analysis they had taken number of remaining remaps into account, because that would have been revealing.

With Injectors, the ideal-ness of a build is determined by how many injectors you would need to get them to ideal. You won't see "wasted SP" in characters that get offered on the Character Bazaar anymore.


The Receptionist wrote:
Personally, I am curious about how players will value SP as well. Personally I hope an empty injector is dirt cheap, so that it's very easy to clean up SP on your own characters and fix SP you wasted early on when you didn't know better on skills that you never use.

However I hope that a full injector is super expensive as valued by player market, so that it's much more expensive to use these to build character up from scratch.


The price difference will be equal to : (1 Plex) * (Number of SP you can train per month)/500,000 + a small markup.

There is really no basis for the devs to be seriously wondering about this. That formula will be exactly what happens after a few months of time.

What happens to the price of a PLEX will be interesting to see, though. It will mostly likely rise. The only question is how much will it rise?
Memphis Baas
#1698 - 2016-01-30 13:41:41 UTC
MAS0RAKSH wrote:
112 injectors to go from 5mil to 50mil SP
100 injectors to move along from 50mil SP to 80mil SP
1466 imjectors to go from 80mil SP to 300mil SP

It would be sad to see an alliance, out of sheer spite or amusement, create 1700 injectors in 84 days (training new alt up is easy peasy), and then see http://eveboard.com/pilot/Dr_Caymus with his 286,519,976 million earned skillpoints from May 16, 2003 at 22:51:00 in the evening to the moments before some newbro toon named after someone's **** injects 1700 SP boosters for 300 mil SP.

Game ******* Over. 1 day old toon just wrecked EVE


It's not game over by any means. Dr Caymus will just realize something that we already know: that he WASTED 13 ******* years of his life and $1742 on subscriptions on a game. On pixels. And now "some alliance" can pay to the tune of $17,000, 10 times as much, to bypass his meaningless skillpoint total, showing him proof that it's totally meaningless and a complete ******* WASTE.

As far as Dr Caymus vs. the "newbro", if they pay that much, then the newbro is someone's nephew in that alliance, and thus has the backing of a WHOLE DAMN ALLIANCE should the fight between the two ever happen. That's what you said in your example. Dr Caymus will be the scrub in that little fight.
Memphis Baas
#1699 - 2016-01-30 13:50:30 UTC
In any case, this being the comments thread for the feature they're releasing:

CCP please save us some clicking and don't make the Extractor window disappear after each 500k points, if we have a stack of extractors. Or even better, give the ability to extract multiples at the same time, like with Injectors, just extend the 500k box where we drag skills, to include the total points required for the number of Extractors we have in the stack.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1700 - 2016-01-30 15:37:48 UTC
I like this idea that everyone will somehow endlessly plex infinite amounts by farming SP.

Now no one will need to sub or buy plex from ccp ever...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?