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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

First post First post First post
Author
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1541 - 2016-01-28 00:13:57 UTC
Yaasmine wrote:
this is a poll
http://i.imgur.com/lgXNmsG.png

a poll that is 92% positive to it


this is also a poll
http://i.imgur.com/o1k1Pxs.png

that is 88% positive to it


this is also a poll
http://i.imgur.com/Rflvo75.png

that is 92% positive to it

lol, none of those are polls
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1542 - 2016-01-28 00:21:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaldi Tsukaya
Yaasmine wrote:


so its not just a money move. its also a move to improve the game.


It's just a cash grab for CCP. The only good thing for Eve is the SP sink.
Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)... then this is not really a good idea for you.

I'm not going to quit yet, but won't resub at the end of this year.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1543 - 2016-01-28 00:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
It's just a cash grab for CCP. The only good thing for Eve is the SP sink.
Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)...

I'm not going to quit yet, but won't resub at the end of this year.
Being wealthy doesn't actually keep the SP from sinking. Actually being willing to start more accounts or consume more certs for SP sale does try to counteract it. Though really, who's going to be willing to do to much of that in an uncertain prospect missing a key piece of information?
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1544 - 2016-01-28 00:32:36 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
By the end here, you just proved me right. If you cannot see how low cost injectors can artificially inflate PLEX in the short term, then actually DEVALUATE plex in the long run, then I daresay you have not seen as far ahead as I have.

There will be two forces acting on the PLEX prices due to skill extractors. On one hand, since one can turn ISK into PLEX, and PLEX into AUR, people will be shopping for more PLEX to buy skill extractors. That's an increase in demand. On the other hand, since people will want to buy skill injectors, but many won't be making enough in-game ISK, they will buy PLEX for real cash and sell them for ISK. That's an increase in supply.

Let us consider the "production price" of an injector (from a SP farm). It is 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price. Let us also assume that the SP farmer is buying the extractor by converting ISK into PLEX, and then exchanging every PLEX for (I believe) the fixed amount of 3,500 AUR set by CCP. Thus the actual production price is entirely proportional to PLEX: (0.25+extractor_price/3500 AUR)*PLEX. This means however that extractor pice has essentially no impact on the supply side. Why? Because buying PLEX with real cash always nets me the same number of "production price" skill injectors. Let's say the extractor price would be 875 AUR. Then the "production price" would be half a PLEX. If I buy a PLEX with real money, I can expect to buy two skill injectors with it. That statement is independent of how many ISK I'm actually getting for a PLEX. If I'm getting more, then the skill injectors will also be dearer, if I'm getting less, then they will also be cheaper.

If the AUR price for the extractor is high, then people need to buy more PLEX with ISK to afford them. This increases PLEX demand, and will raise PLEX price. On the supply side, basically nothing happens, as just argued. So the PLEX price goes up.

It is correct that PLEX prices will likely go up over this, but the more the extractor costs, the more they will go up. So if you like your PLEX prices low, then you should hope for extractor prices as low as possible. Of course, if the extractor price is so high that almost nobody buys any, then this will retain the status quo, also for PLEX prices. But that's unlikely. The worst case scenario for PLEX price is the one you seem to want, namely extractor prices that are very high but not so high as to stop all trade. That will make the PLEX price shoot up considerably.

Oreb Wing wrote:
All our would take is a handful of nerds that think it's fun to make a game out of selling the SP they accumulated. They could destroy Eve without ever firing a single missile. Industrialists that never leave station need only plug the best learning implants and sell the injectors as an easy side project. Now add the 1% over and on top of that.

How would any of this "destroy EVE"? It is exceedingly unlikely that we have enough industrialists who will extract SP from themselves to fulfil the demand for skill injectors. It is likely that after burning through the unwanted SP pool of older players, most injectors will be produced by dedicated SP farms. We can predict their "production price" by the existing game mechanics.

None of this will lead to major upheavals on the market. As far as game play goes, it is likely to accelerate mainly progression among "middle age" players, who can generate enough ISK to afford this, but do not get hit so badly by the injector efficacy reduction. Most newbies will be too poor, and for the really old players it will not be worth it in most cases. The lower the extractor price in AUR, the more the uptake will come from younger players, simply since this will mean a lower total price in ISK for the injectors.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1545 - 2016-01-28 00:34:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
It's just a cash grab for CCP. The only good thing for Eve is the SP sink.
Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)...

I'm not going to quit yet, but won't resub at the end of this year.
Being wealthy doesn't actually keep the SP from sinking. Actually being willing to start more accounts or consume more certs for SP sale does try to counteract it. Though really, who's going to be willing to do to much of that in an uncertain prospect missing a key piece of information?


The isk cost is literally irrelevant to the wealthiest gamers. They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.

SP will be sunk in the scaled rewards for using the skill packets on characters with mid to high SP.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1546 - 2016-01-28 00:42:08 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
The isk cost is literally irrelevant to the wealthiest gamers. They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.

SP will be sunk in the scaled rewards for using the skill packets on characters with mid to high SP.
So instead of SP sinking "Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)" it's sinking especially because of wealthy players. Also there isn't such a thing as cost irrelevance with SP due to the number of SP you can sink into a character and the likely cost of that SP (before counting the unknown aur base cost). There is also supply constraint which no amount of isk or cash can work around if it becomes an issue.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1547 - 2016-01-28 00:53:19 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
The isk cost is literally irrelevant to the wealthiest gamers. They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.

SP will be sunk in the scaled rewards for using the skill packets on characters with mid to high SP.
So instead of SP sinking "Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)" it's sinking especially because of wealthy players. Also there isn't such a thing as cost irrelevance with SP due to the number of SP you can sink into a character and the likely cost of that SP (before counting the unknown aur base cost). There is also supply constraint which no amount of isk or cash can work around if it becomes an issue.


You misunderstood my first comment. I did not word it well, but I did not mean to imply that wealth would affect the SP sink.
Just that the wealthy will find this change is good for them.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1548 - 2016-01-28 00:56:28 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
You misunderstood my first comment. I did not word it well, but I did not mean to imply that wealth would affect the SP sink.
Just that the wealthy will find this change is good for them.
Ah, ok. On that point we agree.
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1549 - 2016-01-28 01:30:46 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.

How can anyone possibly "buy and control" this market? It is a renewable resource, regeneration can be sped up arbitrarily by recruiting more alts; and it is accessible to practically everybody in station without ever undocking, so it is impossible to restrict by non-market means.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#1550 - 2016-01-28 03:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Officer Pressly wrote:
Whilest a small part of the community are doomsayers. Most of us really want this, and are looking forward to the changes that are comming. This will allow you to keep up with the changes that are happening in eve, or have happend along time ago.

Most of the players do want some kind of skill respec ability to cope with the constant changes in Eve but not flat out SP trading in this corrupt form, there's a big difference. It breaks the main core mechanics of what Eve is and why it's unique for a player to transfer his/her already trained skills to an entirely different char.

The end result is a game that is no longer Eve. It will instead become another space WoW clone or World of Spaceships. If that's what CCP wants then their reputation as one of the greatest MMO game designers in the industry is gonna be destroyed and replaced with the money grabbing sellouts they've become.
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1551 - 2016-01-28 03:38:45 UTC
Titus Tallang wrote:
I still think this is a terrible idea, just like last time it was proposed. Here's why:


  • It has the outward appearance of microtransactions: Whether this system, with its unique CCP-branded Everything Comes From Another Playerâ„¢ approach, is actually a microtransaction system is arguable, but this is not the point. What matters is the first impression on a new player. "Wait 10 hours to train this skill - or take out your credit card and buy some PLEX!". I realize the prospect has dollar signs twirling in the eyes of your accountants right now, but it's guaranteed to drive plenty of new players away, especially during those crucial first days. I can guarantee you it would've driven me away when I started playing.
  • It makes it so new players (feel they) have to purchase SP with cash to remain competitive: Bittervets get 150k SP per extractor, while brand new players get 500k SP per extractor, a 233% increase. Now contrast the buying power of bittervets with the buying power of new players. Do you really believe that these will end up in any price range that is remotely affordable for a new player that doesn't have Credit Card V trained? Yet a new player that doesn't pay for these will see his friends flying more powerful ships, with better modules, and higher effectiveness, thus affecting a strong psychological incentive to also pay for SP boosters to remain competitive.


Please stop doing your best Scrooge McDuck impression with a cash register jingling in the background and stop this madness before it's too late. We have enough issues retaining new players, something the game badly needs, as is, without you adding a system that makes it look as if you had the same monetization model as a f**ing Farmville clone.

^This. Pointless to tell more.
Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1552 - 2016-01-28 03:54:35 UTC
I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it..

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1553 - 2016-01-28 03:59:56 UTC
Alea wrote:
I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it..

I'm going to enjoy shooting them all. SP doesn't equal skill.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1554 - 2016-01-28 04:03:56 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Alea wrote:
I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it..

I'm going to enjoy shooting them all. SP doesn't equal skill.


I hope there will be a way to tell who buys SP so I can keep them under a constant wardec, hell I'll create another corp just for that purpose alone, thanks for the idea.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.

OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1555 - 2016-01-28 04:04:26 UTC
Also.
No matter what yall think, some older Devs might know the dangers of this move.
But.
I bet this was going like:
"Owner - get me money!
Dev - Sir, this might...
Owner - I don't care. resolve it.
Dev - Sir, but...
Owner - Money. Nao. Or get rekt."
Skilltrading was pretty much the last thing they had for sale, in a game without any dynamic, point or sense.
If i would like to play this on a small scale map, i just would go for other games offering way better maps. Restricting movement ingame made this.
If i would like to play a pointless game, i would go for browsergames.
If i would like to play a game in wich all the toys are nerfed to absolute nonsense, while some are buffed to absolute nonsense... but i won't. No matter what.
I bet the Aurum project was made by someone high enuf in ranks that it MUST not fail.
So i also bet we will get all the good things back. Just they will ask for money in exchange. They just made it slowly enuf for us to not get really sick of it and continue playing.
Slowly all the guys making this game worth playing will go away. Most of them are gone already. And there's no sign new ones will rise.
I don't care bout the statistics they made. Good eve players aren't daily on forums, and mostly don't bother to fill up statistics. They DO play the game, not the forums.
So welcome to the new world of bored hiseccers, consuming it all away like candys and unsubbing after.
Skills are worthless, no matter what kind of those are, if the toys are broken, gents. This will do absolutely nothing to the game except making sum idiots bleed RL cash. And make some farmers even more rich.Lol
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1556 - 2016-01-28 04:06:57 UTC
Alea wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Alea wrote:
I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it..

I'm going to enjoy shooting them all. SP doesn't equal skill.


I hope there will be a way to tell who buys SP so I can keep them under a constant wardec, hell I'll create another corp just for that purpose alone, thanks for the idea.

I'm ambivalent about whether there should be a public account of purchased SP. I wouldn't mind personally. But I do like that it introduces more intel uncertainty. Perfect intel is bad IMHO.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1557 - 2016-01-28 04:14:15 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.

How can anyone possibly "buy and control" this market? It is a renewable resource, regeneration can be sped up arbitrarily by recruiting more alts; and it is accessible to practically everybody in station without ever undocking, so it is impossible to restrict by non-market means.


You are under the false, and very short-sighted, presumption that the availability of SP, and its estimated values, are set. You also seem to think it will be a renewable resource that can keep up with demand created by the power blocks alone. You are in error.
Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1558 - 2016-01-28 04:16:53 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Alea wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Alea wrote:
I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it..

I'm going to enjoy shooting them all. SP doesn't equal skill.


I hope there will be a way to tell who buys SP so I can keep them under a constant wardec, hell I'll create another corp just for that purpose alone, thanks for the idea.

I'm ambivalent about whether there should be a public account of purchased SP. I wouldn't mind personally. But I do like that it introduces more intel uncertainty. Perfect intel is bad IMHO.


I agree that would make it too easy, but having the ability to hide purchased SP would be even more of a game breaker in my opinion, buyers of SP should have to wear a scarlet letter of some sort.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1559 - 2016-01-28 04:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Oreb Wing wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.

How can anyone possibly "buy and control" this market? It is a renewable resource, regeneration can be sped up arbitrarily by recruiting more alts; and it is accessible to practically everybody in station without ever undocking, so it is impossible to restrict by non-market means.


You are under the false, and very short-sighted, presumption that the availability of SP, and its estimated values, are set. You also seem to think it will be a renewable resource that can keep up with demand created by the power blocks alone. You are in error.
I'm not getting the same conclusion regarding either a set availability or value from that. Rather he stated SP availability is variable. Meanwhile I'd question the logic that a high extractor price does anything to change availability in a positive fashion or further the idea that those power blocks can somehow realistically be priced out while still making them reasonably obtainable by anyone else.

Alea wrote:
I agree that would make it too easy, but having the ability to hide purchased SP would be even more of a game breaker in my opinion, buyers of SP should have to wear a scarlet letter of some sort.
I'm not sure the personal motivation to hunt buyers of SP not being mechanically eased for you counts as breaking the game.

On a related note: I look forward to veteran PvP'ers taking advantage of potential SP injection hate with tailor made alts should such an IDing system be made.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1560 - 2016-01-28 04:29:46 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.

How can anyone possibly "buy and control" this market? It is a renewable resource, regeneration can be sped up arbitrarily by recruiting more alts; and it is accessible to practically everybody in station without ever undocking, so it is impossible to restrict by non-market means.


You are under the false, and very short-sighted, presumption that the availability of SP, and its estimated values, are set. You also seem to think it will be a renewable resource that can keep up with demand created by the power blocks alone. You are in error.

Here's my prediction. The market will open expensive (as always) but rapidly bottom out as people ditch their millions of mining SP. A combination of consumer and investor purchasing will soak up the excess supply within a couple of weeks and the price will gradually climb. It will plateau after a couple of months as the non-peak demand level is established and high SP vets start farming their static alt accounts to subsidise subscription plex cost. DEPENDING on the cost of extractors.

So my advice is to buy skill packets as soon as you see it bottom out. Expect price spikes around major rebalances. Also, remember that CCP will probably offer periodic discounts on extractor costs.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.