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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Yaasmine
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1521 - 2016-01-27 21:51:04 UTC
ViolentDesire wrote:
Yaasmine wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:
sero Hita wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:

Disagree. But even if it did, it would be better than what we have now. So it comes back not wanting to know. Probably because they do "know".


You can disagree all you want, it does not invalidate my point. And a faulty survey is faulty. There is no "better than what we have now", there is only reliable data and unreliable data. Your survey would paint a wrong picture of the truth, hence has no value.


It is not impossible to have a poll on this. It does not have to be perfect.

I would prefer if they took part in the discussion and argued their positions. I remember at least a few solid points from the previous thread that deserved a reply.

this is a poll
http://i.imgur.com/lgXNmsG.png

a poll that is 92% positive to it


this is also a poll
http://i.imgur.com/o1k1Pxs.png

that is 88% positive to it


this is also a poll
http://i.imgur.com/Rflvo75.png

that is 92% positive to it







you know what a poll is right? it doesnt need to be on EVE's main page. because not many visit the main page. or read the launcher.

and people who CARE about the topic, have gone to these. and voted.

they not hard to find. just type eve skill injector to google.


Anyone can upvote on reddit. If the accuracy of the poll is of any concern, Reddit is invalid by default. Unless there is massive confirmation bias.


which is why you use MULTIPLE sources

reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.

all positive.
ViolentDesire
78934223
#1522 - 2016-01-27 21:52:55 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:


I would prefer if they took part in the discussion and argued their positions. I remember at least a few solid points from the previous thread that deserved a reply.


I agree on this part. Personally I can understand though how one can loose the motivation to answer (also the very good points), when you see the tone in which some people reply. It is not optimal to ignore the threads, but I do understand it from CCPs point of view, when you are just trying to do your job, and is met with sometimes extreme negativity.


By ignoring the thread, they arguably caused that themselves. I thought it was more civil than many shitstorms in the past.
ViolentDesire
78934223
#1523 - 2016-01-27 21:55:23 UTC
Yaasmine wrote:

which is why you use MULTIPLE sources

reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.

all positive.


There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have.
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1524 - 2016-01-27 21:56:05 UTC
ViolentDesire wrote:
sero Hita wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:


I would prefer if they took part in the discussion and argued their positions. I remember at least a few solid points from the previous thread that deserved a reply.


I agree on this part. Personally I can understand though how one can loose the motivation to answer (also the very good points), when you see the tone in which some people reply. It is not optimal to ignore the threads, but I do understand it from CCPs point of view, when you are just trying to do your job, and is met with sometimes extreme negativity.


By ignoring the thread, they arguably caused that themselves. I thought it was more civil than many shitstorms in the past.


CCP is at fault even dev don't even reply to the dev blog. we are going to be down this road again when CCP tell us the cost of them which is going to be funny again as going to get more Negs again
Yaasmine
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1525 - 2016-01-27 22:06:02 UTC
ViolentDesire wrote:
Yaasmine wrote:

which is why you use MULTIPLE sources

reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.

all positive.


There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have.

valid eve accounts

aka, alts

which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE


OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH
ViolentDesire
78934223
#1526 - 2016-01-27 22:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ViolentDesire
Yaasmine wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:
Yaasmine wrote:

which is why you use MULTIPLE sources

reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.

all positive.


There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have.

valid eve accounts

aka, alts

which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE


OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH


If they can ban "every" account that a botter owns, they can certainly filter this. Even if they didnt, it would be much better than reddit/facebook where everyone can vote.

Edit: send it to their sign-up email as well.
Yaasmine
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1527 - 2016-01-27 22:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Yaasmine
ViolentDesire wrote:
Yaasmine wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:
Yaasmine wrote:

which is why you use MULTIPLE sources

reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.

all positive.


There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have.

valid eve accounts

aka, alts

which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE


OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH


If they can ban "every" account that a botter owns, they can certainly filter this. Even if they didnt, it would be much better than reddit/facebook where everyone can vote.

potential future players are needed

and again, skill que online is not a good way to get people's attention

3rd party sites that people ACTUALLY FREQUENT is better than the EVE site or in game where skill que online means people don't log in often.

as only people who frequent eve site or online are likely people who have SP already. and thus wouldnt benefit much from this.
saltrock0000
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1528 - 2016-01-27 22:29:12 UTC
Just read the upcomming patch notes and where I agree about the diminishing returns in regards SP I think there should be a addition.

When removing SP and then reapplying it to the same character you should get 100% of the SP removed and not a diminishing amount. This would allow people to get rid of unwanted skills and reapply the SP more appropriatly. Keep the diminishing returns from SP from other sources, but not form the same character.

\'''\<(o_O)>/'''/
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1529 - 2016-01-27 22:35:07 UTC
ViolentDesire wrote:

By ignoring the thread, they arguably caused that themselves. I thought it was more civil than many shitstorms in the past.


Well, a lot of people were plainly rejecting the idea. Some were threatening to unsup. Some of the posters, like Suede (in this thread) got stuck in 2011, and are passive agressively threatening CCP that this will end like the summer of rage, eventhough it is pretty clear that ship has sailed. Do you honestly think this is constructive and worth listening to? The only thing that could have lend you the ears of the devs, would have been an discussion on how to adjust their current idea, so it is easier for some to swallow. But that did not happen. Rejecting an idea or wanting a rollback (like the new overviewicons) is not civil, but quite aggressive, like all ultimatums are.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1530 - 2016-01-27 22:37:51 UTC
saltrock0000 wrote:
Just read the upcomming patch notes and where I agree about the diminishing returns in regards SP I think there should be a addition.

When removing SP and then reapplying it to the same character you should get 100% of the SP removed and not a diminishing amount. This would allow people to get rid of unwanted skills and reapply the SP more appropriatly. Keep the diminishing returns from SP from other sources, but not form the same character.

I am actually okay with that re-skilling would be with dimissive returns, choices and consequences etc.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
ViolentDesire
78934223
#1531 - 2016-01-27 22:46:18 UTC
Yaasmine wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:
Yaasmine wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:
Yaasmine wrote:

which is why you use MULTIPLE sources

reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.

all positive.


There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have.

valid eve accounts

aka, alts

which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE


OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH


If they can ban "every" account that a botter owns, they can certainly filter this. Even if they didnt, it would be much better than reddit/facebook where everyone can vote.

potential future players are needed

and again, skill que online is not a good way to get people's attention

3rd party sites that people ACTUALLY FREQUENT is better than the EVE site or in game where skill que online means people don't log in often.

as only people who frequent eve site or online are likely people who have SP already. and thus wouldnt benefit much from this.


Reddit is mostly goons + some other alliances that are over enthusiastic about eve. Everybody with an eve account has an email registered with it. There is clearly more accuracy there.
ViolentDesire
78934223
#1532 - 2016-01-27 23:01:46 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:

By ignoring the thread, they arguably caused that themselves. I thought it was more civil than many shitstorms in the past.


Well, a lot of people were plainly rejecting the idea. Some were threatening to unsup. Some of the posters, like Suede (in this thread) got stuck in 2011, and are passive agressively threatening CCP that this will end like the summer of rage, eventhough it is pretty clear that ship has sailed. Do you honestly think this is constructive and worth listening to?


The rejection is the reason they should discuss. The problem with "constructive" is that it is often used to dismiss strong arguments. I doubt anybody expected CCP to reply to every post.

Quote:
The only thing that could have lend you the ears of the devs, would have been an discussion on how to adjust their current idea, so it is easier for some to swallow. But that did not happen. Rejecting an idea or wanting a rollback (like the new overviewicons) is not civil, but quite aggressive, like all ultimatums are.


It is possible that people didnt want it, and that must be a valid opinion. Its ultimately on CCP to offer a compromise, but the relevant dev didnt post once.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1533 - 2016-01-27 23:15:57 UTC
Yaasmine wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:
Yaasmine wrote:

which is why you use MULTIPLE sources

reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.

all positive.


There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have.

valid eve accounts

aka, alts

which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE


OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH


If a player doesn't log in because of the skillqueue they chose the wrong game

You can play eve wiyh any level of skills, with minimal skills you can take part in any of the starter careers but you will lose in pvp often. This would be playing the game . However now you can pay for skills to win more often. This is what bothers people.

A note on polls: they can be very very wrong. In the last election in the UK every poll said it would be a hung parliament. Every single one, without exception. They were all wrong and the party they all said would come second actually had a clear win.

Polls mean very very little depending on how they are taken.

Whether this change will help the game remains to be seen ( I think not but everyone is entitled to there own view). Charging new players another PLEX or two in SP packs is definitely not my idea of helping them though.
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1534 - 2016-01-27 23:16:43 UTC
ViolentDesire wrote:


The rejection is the reason they should discuss. The problem with "constructive" is that it is often used to dismiss strong arguments. I doubt anybody expected CCP to reply to every post.

It is possible that people didnt want it, and that must be a valid opinion. Its ultimately on CCP to offer a compromise, but the relevant dev didnt post once.



So an ultimatum, like I said. You try to play reasonable, but you are not really. They have to drop it, or no alternative. You may not believe me, but it is your own fault they will not listen to you. Like in the real world, communicating like that often gives you nothing (like this thread has proven), as your hardline point comes across as unsympathetic and non-relatable. You can continue to be extremely bitter, if you want. Sp trading will be out in 12 days, so good luck with that. I will stop this discussion now, as we will not agree and we are just running in circles. You have your right to have your opinion, as they have to ignore it.

o7

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Yaasmine
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1535 - 2016-01-27 23:27:16 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

If a player doesn't log in because of the skillqueue they chose the wrong game




CCP doesn't agree

which is why skill injector is becoming a thing.


CCP wants people to undock and play more.
and play "skill que online" less, where they don't logg in or undock.
Scott Dracov
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1536 - 2016-01-27 23:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Scott Dracov
Anyone ever wonder if CCP is so fixated on making EVE free to play and wanting to use pay 2 win micro transactions so badly that they would fix the plex market to do it without anyone even noticing? think about it.

The probability that CCP has been seeding the in game PLEX market since 2011 with large volumes of PLEX to keep easily affordable PLEX on the market to make EVE a free to play game supported by micro transactions is pretty likely given how much of a hard on they have for this pay to win micro BS.

Why do you think they get so bent out of shape if anyone ladders and inflates plex prices? do you think such a volatile and high demand commodity would stay at such level prices without being manipulated?

There's a lot of bad players in EVE but the amount of Bads needed to keep the numbers of PLEX on the market at all times at such easily attainable prices says to me CCP is likely giving pretty much everyone in EVE a free ride if they want it.

I'm sure enough pay sub fees still to keep the place afloat but the reality is more complicated I suspect.

ALTS are everywhere.

even people paying for multiple subs are buying plex with isk to multi train alts... lots of alts. literally many players have so many alts trained with plex they bought from isk that if they wanted to they would never pay to play eve again but chances are they do anyway.

So really who has actually been hoodwinked in a bigger way... people that think legions of bads buy millions worth of plex per month to finance legions of alts or mains or is the whole thing a house of cards to begin with with no one actually buying such ridiculous volumes of PLEX at all and CCP keeping people in game simply to sell them pay 2 win micro items with aria?

Either way I stopped caring when I learned about Aria. The only thing truly clear to me is pay 2 win micro crap was the goal from 2011 on and nothing else has mattered to CCP but micro BS ever since.
Zoe Jackes
Neurosurgical Reconstruction Centre
#1537 - 2016-01-27 23:57:56 UTC
didn't you say that twenty times already. Jeez m8
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1538 - 2016-01-28 00:03:40 UTC
Yaasmine wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

If a player doesn't log in because of the skillqueue they chose the wrong game




CCP doesn't agree

which is why skill injector is becoming a thing.


CCP wants people to undock and play more.
and play "skill que online" less, where they don't logg in or undock.


CCP wants more money, they are a business so no problem there, just don't dress it up as for the new players...
Yaasmine
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1539 - 2016-01-28 00:10:24 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Yaasmine wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

If a player doesn't log in because of the skillqueue they chose the wrong game




CCP doesn't agree

which is why skill injector is becoming a thing.


CCP wants people to undock and play more.
and play "skill que online" less, where they don't logg in or undock.


CCP wants more money, they are a business so no problem there, just don't dress it up as for the new players...

then don't dress it up as game is dead or going to die.

or purely a move for money.



money is a motive for any business. but this isn't just for money(otherwise it wouldnt be sellable for isk), they trying to fix some issues in game at the same time.

and seeing as how its encouraging people to play, rather than set a que and logg off for a month. it is helping new players.



a new player might never earn enough to buy a skill injector. but having the motive of saving up for one, causes them to play the game, and thus stay engaged as they discover new things, and improve the game for others by having more people in the universe.

if they manage to earn enough for a skill injector, or get donated one by a corporation thats looking to recruit. then thats a major help for them.



so its not just a money move. its also a move to improve the game.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#1540 - 2016-01-28 00:13:33 UTC
Yaasmine wrote:
[...]

so WHAT do you want from EVE

do you want more people playing the game? -aka what CCP is trying to do. (its MMO for a reason. game devs try to catch new players up to older to balance out the playing field. like how GW2 lowered the exp cost to level. or WoW made past expansions free for subscribers. or how SWTOR made leveling more streamlined. or WoT released tier 8 prem tanks)

or do you want more people playign skill que online. stayign docked. and not interacting with the game. (aka game right now)

I want LESS P2W.
Character bazar was added to combat illegal characters sales. (I dont like the bazar, but it seems to be a necessary evil.)
PLEX was added to reduce RMT.

Skill trading is added to allow players to progress faster. Supporters say the P2W aspect of skill trading is no problem because the character bazar is already P2W. Is that a reason to add even more of this P2W? To make it easier???

If we allow skill trading, whats next?

  • Premium ship insurance (covers 100%) for 500AUR? I can already hear the supporters: "ITS NOT MORE P2W THAN PLEX"
  • 30-Day Bounty Hunter License: 50% ISK bonus on all NPC bounties for 5,000AUR? The supporters "ITS NOT P2W BECAUSE YOU CAN ACHIEVE THE SAME BY GRINDING LONGER"
  • Premium starter packs for 10,000AUR? "Be the wolf among the sheep and start you EVE career with 5 fully fitted and perfectly skilled Svipuls!" The supporters: "ITS NOT MORE P2W THAN SKILL TRADING AND PLEX"

Its a race to the bottom.

Im for helping newbies, as long as its not Pay 2 Progress.
Im for some kind of skill rearrangement, as long as it has meaningful restrictions which prevent ISK- or $-rich players/alliances/coalitions from gaining an advantage.
So im against the current form of skill trading.