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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Decripid Sano
Doomheim
#1261 - 2016-01-25 15:46:01 UTC
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
JUNK.

Seems like only you and your alts are the only ones hurrahing CCP for adding this money grab scheme to Eve. Hopefully by this time next year it would only be you and your trolling alts left playing this pitiful game. Hope you got deep wallets because people like you are going to be the only ones left to support Eve money problems, good luck with that.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1262 - 2016-01-25 15:46:27 UTC
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
...
having you buy skill injectors gives new players something to strive for. something to save up to buy. something to play for. instead of w8ing.


Pirate ships and deadspace modules already provide this, probably more cheaply and with much higher bonuses than the few skills 1 mil SP gets you. This is about money, nothing more, nothing less.

pirate ships requiring SP to use, and use effectively (for example, astero. you'll need drone skills, electronic, cloak, covert ops. how about garmur. you'll need shield skills, missiles velocity and signature radius. etc)

now what can 1mill SP get you?
as a new player. 1mill SP can get you quiet alot of skills. enough to train up to be decent in a t2 or t1 shield of cruiser or lower.


Again you aren't exactly talking like a new player here...A truly new player would not know which skills are required to make a ship work as well as it can, they would be taking the time training to learn how these skills work.
malaka katsika
Four Deadly Horsemen
#1263 - 2016-01-25 15:55:22 UTC
Decripid Sano wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
JUNK.

Seems like only you and your alts are the only ones hurrahing CCP for adding this money grab scheme to Eve. Hopefully by this time next year it would only be you and your trolling alts left playing this pitiful game. Hope you got deep wallets because people like you are going to be the only ones left to support Eve money problems, good luck with that.


Why should we all be hurrahing? It's happening , all that's left is for the babies to cry about it.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#1264 - 2016-01-25 17:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:
1000 AUR is not the "cheapest" price for an item in the online store.

I think she/he meant that cheapest AUR package (5 euro) is gaving player almost 1000 AUR (900 exactly).


If the maximum skill points gained in a month = 2 million.
Then the 4 extractors required to hold them will cost more than the cheapest subscription ($10.95) needed to train them.
The cheapest methods of buying AURUM is the $100 packet of AURUM that makes 212 per dollar.

So the only thing we know about the cost is that they will be more than 583 Aurum per injector.

Although if CCP Seagull was referring to using multi-train feature the cost would be closer at 927 Aurum and the guess of least expensive AURUM packet = I extractor may be the best guess so far.


EDIT: I just realized people may not know what I am referring to - So I found a youtube of the skill point roundtable at EVE Vegas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTVvGkRIFck Starts after the CSM about an hour in
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1265 - 2016-01-25 18:02:22 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I never once waited for a skill to complete before playing the game, I simply played with the skills I had whilst others trained. As a new player these are all pretty much low multiplier skills that don't take that long anyway and would typically complete before you next log in.

What is a "new player" here? Yes, in the first week or two most stuff one trains completes faster than one can be worried about. In part though because one is making "mistakes" about what one should be training to achieve certain things. Most "skill plans" get you to multi-day training pretty rapidly. Nowadays most stuff I drop in my queue is a day or more, some are up to 20 days. Or to be more precise, nowadays when I get a new skill it's not usually "oh, a new skill, shiny". It's more like "I need this skill at IV". And thus while I still do the quick level I, II, III trains, they are in fact annoying now. Because they take up multiple slots in the skill queue, unless I want to wait for one to finish to drop in the next level. And I don't think of myself as an "old player". I'm still pretty new.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
So which is it? You need 10-15 mill to be effective or you can be effective incrementally as you train up skills? If you need that 10-15 mill then you'd better pay the £90+ straight up (that's a conservative estimate by the way, almost certainly it would be higher).

You need the 10-15M if you want to be a decent all-rounder with a couple of strong specialisations. If you want to be good at just one thing, then you need about 2-5M SP at minimum (it really depends a lot on what you want to be good at though - it could be a lot more). This does not mean that you cannot do anything before then. The opposite of "effective" ("efficient") is not "nothing", but "ineffective" ("inefficient"). And obviously you get more "effective" ("efficient") as you skill up, generally speaking.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
If you can be effective incrementally as you train up skills then cerebral accelerator implants built in game by players would have been a better choice. But then that wouldn't increase revenue in the same way would it? Even if it would be better for a new player too.

Why would accelerators be better for new players? I used the blood ones. They were indeed better than nothing. I also got some unallocated SP (because of an accelerator glitch, actually). That was much nicer. If I had the choice between an accelerator that delivers 500k SP over its lifetime, or an injector that delivers 500k unallocated here and now, I would always opt for the latter.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I never forgot about the skill queue as it was (before this change) a part of the game to create and grow your character. Soon the space or RL rich will be able to circumvent that to a degree which diminishes the game in my view.

And yet, you will carefully maintain your skill queue just the same. Because it actually doesn't matter in the slightest whether some rich guy can bling out their character skill-wise. Just as it doesn't matter in the slightest that they can bling out their ships, other than for entertainment when they get blown up. What matters for you is what you can do. And since the skill queue is setting thresholds on almost everything you would want to do in EVE, you will continue minding it carefully.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
II also never fixated on being perfect at any career. I trained the necessary skills to level III or IV as required and just got on with the game in the meantime. As I determined whether I wanted to go further with that career I specialized some training into it whilst learning how to use the lower level skills to their maximum effect. Never once have I not logged in due to a skill training.

And you are the measure of all things EVE? One of the wort things about these discussions is that everybody thinks that everybody else has to build sandcastles in just the way they do, or they do not belong into this sandbox. If you like to wing things, are satisfied with the second best, or even the tenth, and generally half-arse EVE to your great enjoyment - well, good on you! But not everybody is like you.
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1266 - 2016-01-25 18:38:31 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Buy PLEX: CCP gets 20 €/$, you get 2,000,000 SP and are subscribed for one month.
Buy 2,000,000 SP: CCP gets 2 €/$, you get 2,000,000 SP and save yourself 18 €/$ and subscribing for a month. Why would CCP dismiss the opportunity cost of skill packets? Each 4 packets mean that they're losing a whole month of subscription... why shouldn't they pass on that cost to the customer?

CCP earns from the injectors (1) by virtue of the skill training that needs to be subscribed for, valued at 0.25*PLEX per injector roughly, and (2) by the additional overhead of selling the empty extractors for AUR in the store.

Even if the empty extractors would cost nothing, and were given out free to everybody in abundance, CCP wouldn't lose a penny. Somebody somewhere does have to pay for the 0.25*PLEX of SP extracted. All SP come from a player, the SP gets into the player only via a subscription, the subscription is being paid for by real cash one way or the other.

What is true is that there is a large SP pool, which players have build up (and paid for!) over time. If the SP filling the injectors comes from that pool, then it would be more accurate to say that CCP has profited in the past from training this SP. They will not get money for this training now. So in that sense CCP could "lose money" now, namely by seeing that SP pool drain instead of new SP being trained (and being paid for now).

But that is the opposite of "greedy". It would mean that CCP has identified the stagnant SP pool they have build up in the past to their profit as a big problem for the game now. And they are willing to drain it now, even if that means that they will lose out on some cash. Good on them!

Furthermore, I still have to subscribe even if I buy four skill packets. The skill packets are extra, they do not replace the subscription. It is possible that I will unsubscribe earlier, because of skilling up faster. If for some reason it were the case that I would unsubscribe at 20M SP no matter what, then skill packets would be in direct competition will subscription in the sense of getting me there. It is however also possible that I will not unsubscribe as quickly, because of skilling up faster. Maybe I find the game at 20M SP more engaging, and hence stick around, whereas I would have given up if I had to try to get the SP via subscription. If the "higher SP" game in EVE is more interesting than the "lower SP" one, then the latter is more likely than the former. And that means that CCP can have reasonable hope of actually getting more, not less, subscription money thanks to this.

It remains true though that CCP cannot charge too much for the extractor, or this will not only not fly, but backfire severely.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1267 - 2016-01-25 18:48:20 UTC
What would you say is too much for an empty extractor? Or a full one? Disregard the undetermined AUR price, but say a range that would persuade you as a new player and a price range to which you find yourself repulsed by..
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#1268 - 2016-01-25 19:04:53 UTC
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1269 - 2016-01-25 19:09:29 UTC
Also, if the injection were to apply itself as 'Unallocated Reserve' SP, such as when you are given credit for removed skills or bugs (like the cerebral accelerators) then a very rich and very motivated pilot could simply inject countless full extractors to a pilot that sits at sub 5m SP (or has been reduced to nothing by extractors), while refraining from attributing/applying them until he is ready to gorge on the unallocated SP bank. So, either CCP generates a block that forces you to apply unallocated SP before the next injection (which could run into some issues on future allocations that cannot be applied due to an unallocated reserve being present) or have the system recognize the unallocated SP together with the accrued SP as the total character SP.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1270 - 2016-01-25 19:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Nana Skalski wrote:
https://twitter.com/JadekMenaheim/status/689402088711847937

CCPlease do.



I don't see the difference by injected skills to injected SP. Clones are not updated as time progresses, but are installed with the SP or experience of the pilot. I see this idea as contrary to the lore on a foundational level. But it was funny.

::edit:: granted that not every persons brain neural links/pathways are the same, which could be the cause of any incompatibility. Yet, again, learning a concept with the skill being learned against the development of technique in manipulation or conditioning is no different, imo.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#1271 - 2016-01-25 19:30:52 UTC
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
Algarion Getz wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.


the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)




P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole....

wat
5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly?

variety of stuff we find in the wormhole.

have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection.

that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage.

You are an exception. Most new players dont have access to mining and ratting in WH space. No good WH corp accepts hordes of random new players. Most new players spend their first days or even weeks in high sec, doing stuff like missions, mining and exploration. Maybe they join a newbie corp like EUNI or Brave Newbies, where they receive a lot of help, but their ISK/h will still be relatively low.

Imagine being a (really) new player:

  • you heard all the news about the 100,000$ battles (EVE's "expensive" battles are probably the most common "fact" non-EVE players know about the game)
  • you see that older players have tons of SP
  • you have to train skills the normal way (= slow)
  • you get owned by T3 destroyers in your badly skilled T1 frigate
  • ISK/h is like ... 10mil? Maybe 20?

Then you see the ads for skill injectors (im sure CCP will advertise them in some way to new players):

"tired of waiting? buy a shortcut!"

I guess the injectors will cost something like 500mil ISK. So as a newbie you will need about 30h of ISK grinding to buy one or 20$ for a PLEX to buy 2. Technically its not 100% P2W, but it will look like it for new players. Thats terrible, because most players leave when they realise a game is P2W.

IF you really want to help new players give them more start SP and a long-lasting cerebral accelerator. A feature that allows selling SP for cash is inconsiderate, shortsighted, superficial and also dishonest. I would expect such a feature from a company like EA, but not CCP.
malaka katsika
Four Deadly Horsemen
#1272 - 2016-01-25 19:45:34 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
Algarion Getz wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.


the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)




P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole....

wat
5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly?

variety of stuff we find in the wormhole.

have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection.

that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage.

You are an exception. Most new players dont have access to mining and ratting in WH space. No good WH corp accepts hordes of random new players. Most new players spend their first days or even weeks in high sec, doing stuff like missions, mining and exploration. Maybe they join a newbie corp like EUNI or Brave Newbies, where they receive a lot of help, but their ISK/h will still be relatively low.

Imagine being a (really) new player:

  • you heard all the news about the 100,000$ battles (EVE's "expensive" battles are probably the most common "fact" non-EVE players know about the game)
  • you see that older players have tons of SP
  • you have to train skills the normal way (= slow)
  • you get owned by T3 destroyers in your badly skilled T1 frigate
  • ISK/h is like ... 10mil? Maybe 20?

Then you see the ads for skill injectors (im sure CCP will advertise them in some way to new players):

"tired of waiting? buy a shortcut!"

I guess the injectors will cost something like 500mil ISK. So as a newbie you will need about 30h of ISK grinding to buy one or 20$ for a PLEX to buy 2. Technically its not 100% P2W, but it will look like it for new players. Thats terrible, because most players leave when they realise a game is P2W.

IF you really want to help new players give them more start SP and a long-lasting cerebral accelerator. A feature that allows selling SP for cash is inconsiderate, shortsighted, superficial and also dishonest. I would expect such a feature from a company like EA, but not CCP.


But it isn't made for all new players, it's for new players with money to spend that would have to work within the character bazaar. They found problems with the Bazaar, so this is what the plan is to fix that problem.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#1273 - 2016-01-25 19:48:20 UTC
This is a terrible idea.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1274 - 2016-01-25 19:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Algarion Getz wrote:


"tired of waiting? buy a shortcut!"

I guess the injectors will cost something like 500mil ISK. So as a newbie you will need about 30h of ISK grinding to buy one or 20$ for a PLEX to buy 2. Technically its not 100% P2W, but it will look like it for new players. Thats terrible, because most players leave when they realise a game is P2W.

IF you really want to help new players give them more start SP and a long-lasting cerebral accelerator. A feature that allows selling SP for cash is inconsiderate, shortsighted, superficial and also dishonest. I would expect such a feature from a company like EA, but not CCP.



You can always have a new player purchase PLEX to purchase skill stems. Many pilots already consider PLEX as p2w or paying to avoid the grind. The bazaar, PLEX, injectors, all these are RMT transactions. These will merely be seen in the future (supposing all is priced well) as pay to avoid the wait. Simple and different, yet on the same branch as what all of these have been.

When I started I left because of P2W. Not pay to win, but Pay To Wait. I was not impatient, but I did feel like I was being had to sit on a 2 week timer for a ship and not really knowing or having experience in other things that were available to occupy my time until then. The new player experience is to blame in most cases of noob frustration. There are no clear road signs that breadcrumb a newby towards good content that can keep you busy while you wait: COSMOS agents, Epic Arcs, Landmarks.

The new player experience ATM is like congratulating an infant on standing up and saying, "Goodjurb! Here's a snack! and acknowledgment of taking a mediocre step in discovering what is still very vague and unintuitive."

We need something like Lore Agents which can be perhaps a 5th profession or tutorial branch. All they would have to do is raise a question that leads to these obscure landmarks or agents that are already present, not a half-brained cheer and pat on the back.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1275 - 2016-01-25 19:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Jack Carrigan wrote:
This is a terrible idea.


Your eloquence in defining why it is is so impressive I am speechless. It was so amazing and helpful.
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1276 - 2016-01-25 20:16:13 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
This is a terrible idea.


Your eloquence in defining why it is is so impressive I am speechless. It was so amazing and helpful.


That would be an opinion, not a definition.
Opinions too, have their place.
Zombeilord Zantra
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1277 - 2016-01-25 20:27:36 UTC
After some thought on this, and many people talk about it being used with new players or how it is P2W, I don't see it much anymore and depending on how much it will cost on the open market in eve, I will say it will fluctuate till something reasonable or consistent is set by the players, and although it will be in the end more or less a booster, most people will not mind a 30 minute to a couple days worth of waiting time and use these injectors more for the week two week or even a month worth of waiting time then on something that take again 30 minutes to 2 days, because to be honest not everyone will have the money to buy tons of extractors, now if the extractors are sold in a quantity of lets say 2-3 that I can see, but in the end they will be cheap enough but high costing in isk for the injectors which CCP is not going to be selling in the online market, also thinking about it to.

Has anyone thought that there will be a wait time for the extractors to finish filling up, because in the image they show it gives off that you might have to wait a tad bit for it to extract, and who says you cannot use your own SP that you extract and re-purpose it into your own skill training, I see that being done more then buying the injectors,

I am by the way for it and though their is a split in what everyone see it in, I think everyone will just have to wait and see how it end up, for the best or the worst, we will not know till it comes out. Speculating on it is good an all to, and everyone has their own opinion even if it is toxic or not.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1278 - 2016-01-25 20:28:47 UTC
Amanda Orion wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
This is a terrible idea.


Your eloquence in defining why it is is so impressive I am speechless. It was so amazing and helpful.


That would be an opinion, not a definition.
Opinions too, have their place.



So do the thumb's up, which take up much less space than empty opinions.
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1279 - 2016-01-25 20:36:29 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:



So do the thumb's up, which take up much less space than empty opinions.



But hardly appropriate for a terrible idea.
Pakokkie
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#1280 - 2016-01-25 20:41:26 UTC
Yes, come trough with the sp trading.

This will happen:

New brothers with zero experience buy a lot of skillpoints, then they buy a big ship, throw some uber modules on it and poof, they pop!

Let the funtimes begin!