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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Filip Ernaga
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1181 - 2016-01-25 01:59:31 UTC
As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.

This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.

So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)

This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference.
Yaasmine
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1182 - 2016-01-25 02:03:23 UTC
Filip Ernaga wrote:
As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.

This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.

So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)

This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference.

both of us are examples of new players =)

+1
Roland Fulmer Metesur
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1183 - 2016-01-25 02:17:55 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Zombeilord Zantra wrote:
I think it would be a fine idea, I mean if people don't like the idea then everyone whould boycott the extractors and don't pull any Skill points out of their charcters no matter what, but I been looking about the webs and seen many people upset and many who are for it, some people who have said they will resub because of it, and some who do not like the wait and quite eve because of it, the ones in null may be weary of it or more for it is also a split. If one thinks about it, this will and can change the tipping point of control just for null sec space, when I see it, it's not that people say its pay to win, but its that it is a new change and people tend to hate change who are acustomed to the old ways, not thinking about the possiblities of the new or the thought on how good it could be.

But I can see it being used mostly to get new players to pump the core skills to level 5 more then anything and we have yet to see the final product.

Course in the end we all will have wait and see how it interacts within the world of eve. It's just a coin flip in the end.


This is not for new players. This feature is for immediate build of perfect alts. Or those who had already trained majority of skills to lvl 4 (talking here of skills with Rank 6 and >; where the main time consumption factor appears) and training ones up would take not less than 3 weeks which easily stack into months


True, unless a large corp uses it to recruit more players who are brand new to eve, I can see that or friends who are willing to help said friends.
Zombeilord Zantra
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1184 - 2016-01-25 02:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zombeilord Zantra
Yaasmine wrote:
Filip Ernaga wrote:
As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.

This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.

So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)

This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference.

both of us are examples of new players =)

+1


I am not a new player kinda because I could not afford it for a while and basically left if for X amount of months and just started to sub, about 2ish months ago, and all my friends are way ahead of me in training and will be going to null without me, since they worry with my skills being to low I would not be at all useful up there, even though they do not like this idea because they just brushed it off and never took a look at it till I started to talk about it in a positive way, then we won't have to leave anyone behind and all move out their together or that is what I hope.

Course people will still be training things up to a point then use the skill points to boost it past that month of wait to like maybe 15 minutes to 0.

Also people have to know that this will cost real money for the extractors unless one can get them from missions, and SP extractors will cost isk, which not everyone will have the money cause of other bills paying the monthly fee and such, unless you are a rich or spoiled person that is, course I find it to be a good add to the game, and people will most likely accept it and who knows more larger scale wars may happen where the sides are on even terms in strength unlike the wars that start that target the much weaker corps.

Edit: that Rolan fulmer is my other character that I have not worked on, and will say that I did not know that it would be different faces. O.o
Rebel Gunn
Doomheim
#1185 - 2016-01-25 04:05:05 UTC
In 2011 CCP stated that the NeX store (predecessor to New Eden Store) would only be used to sell vanity items:

Accord Reached at CCP's Special Summit in 2011

In particular they stated the following:

Quote:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCP‘s plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. CCP has committed to sharing their plans with the CSM on this front on an ongoing basis.


It's clear that CCP has broken their word about microtransactions. They may have also have broken their word about sharing game development plans with the CSM. Was the CSM given information of this plan prior to the first blog on skill point trading?

It's also clear that CCP has nothing but contempt and disdain for the players, their customers. Their attempt to spin all of the negative feedback they received on the first blog into some sign of player support is complete crap.

Posting our reaction as players here in the forums, threatening to unsubscribe or actually doing it, and suspending PLEX purchases are all appropriate means to express our displeasure over the introduction of this feature. So far CCP is still silent in response to the most recent feedback, and I expect that a drop in revenue is the only thing they will understand.

Toward that end, the time may soon be approaching that those of us that are against this will need to seriously consider taking more extreme measures. Most of these would be in-game with the goal of creating an increasingly tangible cost to CCP for ignoring our wishes as customers.

I think if we apply enough pressure, potentially including making the in-game environment very unpleasant for the community at large and/or targeting certain segments, we can eventually get their attention.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1186 - 2016-01-25 04:11:45 UTC
well. personally I just find that funny. But just as much as it is damning, there's the character bazaar, which is an existing corollary to SP extractors.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1187 - 2016-01-25 04:23:01 UTC
Roland Fulmer Metesur wrote:

True, unless a large corp uses it to recruit more players who are brand new to eve, I can see that or friends who are willing to help said friends.


friends at one hand and alliances at another. let's for example take one potentially newbie friendly but combat oriented null sec formation. they are always interested in high number of fresh pilots and they are willingly would be providing them with n-amount of skill points required to fit into their doctrines but as a trade of they would ask newbie to fight against those reds or even with greater goals against biggest evil in Eve (goons i guess). Next thing the newbie would be asked is to create twink and start farming SP's on him because everything counts and Eve is not exception so he has to start farming SP's and sell those back to the Corp/Alli, let's say -10% off lowest buy order.

Zombeilord Zantra wrote:


I am not a new player kinda because I could not afford it for a while and basically left if for X amount of months and just started to sub, about 2ish months ago, and all my friends are way ahead of me in training and will be going to null without me, since they worry with my skills being to low I would not be at all useful up there, even though they do not like this idea because they just brushed it off and never took a look at it till I started to talk about it in a positive way, then we won't have to leave anyone behind and all move out their together or that is what I hope.

Course people will still be training things up to a point then use the skill points to boost it past that month of wait to like maybe 15 minutes to 0.

Also people have to know that this will cost real money for the extractors unless one can get them from missions, and SP extractors will cost isk, which not everyone will have the money cause of other bills paying the monthly fee and such, unless you are a rich or spoiled person that is, course I find it to be a good add to the game, and people will most likely accept it and who knows more larger scale wars may happen where the sides are on even terms in strength unlike the wars that start that target the much weaker corps.

Edit: that Rolan fulmer is my other character that I have not worked on, and will say that I did not know that it would be different faces. O.o


sounds like War of Clones tbh. everyone who wants t go to null should have not less than 10M SP please find attached reqired SP's layout.
Not sure what your friends are up to be doing in null but lows SP never been a barrier to go there. you could play a nice bait role, you could be a solid SB pilot at 5m SP level, you could scan etc etc. those are not real hard things to do at low SP level.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1188 - 2016-01-25 04:25:47 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
well. personally I just find that funny. But just as much as it is damning, there's the character bazaar, which is an existing corollary to SP extractors.


i'd say it's more like a SP Bank where you could invest into "correct" deposit.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Zee Zaugg
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1189 - 2016-01-25 04:49:51 UTC
All of the people saying "SP coming from injectors isnt pay to win" or "that SP has to come from somewhere so its not an unlimited resource" are ignoring the fact that it IS an unlimited resource, particularly if you are a player willing to SPEND money on plex for multiple accounts to farm sp to funnel to a main or are rich enough to buy the injectors with isk, which ARE BOUGHT WITH AURUM, which means PLEX, even PLEX bought on the market and converted to AURUM are still BOUGHT by someone. So in effect, this IS pay to win, as SOMEONE is paying to make the PLEX or injectors that are sold, maybe YOU arent paying to win, but SOMEONE is.

There is also the fact that CCP promised after the monacle debacle that they would only add aesthetic items to the New Eden Exchange. introducing this feature that has a tangible impact on the game is FAR from a purely aesthetic feature. By implementing this, CCP is breaking a promise made to the players, which I personally find very disturbing.

On top of all that, they are completely lying. Or at least avoiding the truth. I read the original post on this idea, as well as many news posts on various sites, reddit posts, and asked around in game, and VERY FEW people thought this was a good or acceptable idea. By saying bull like "the players saw the good idea we had and agreed with us" they are avoiding the majrity of the loyal players feelings and opinions in order to sell more PLEX.

SP should be a sign of commitment, not of how fat your wallet is. And even the character bazaar still shows the commitment given by someone to make the character. By allowing the farming and selling of sp, (and youre kidding yourself if you think all SP sold will come from older characters selling excess SP), you are making it mean less to be a high sp character.

Once again, I will practically BEG that CCP does not implement this feature, and if they absoluely HAVE TO, they should put a cap on how many injectors a character can use.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1190 - 2016-01-25 05:15:56 UTC
The cap is present already with how effective they will be the higher your SP. You can realistically expect the majority of pilots who use this, even aggressively, to slow down dramatically after spending on twenty injectors. Rich ***** capsuleers will exhaust their efforts and/or thin their wallets dramatically once they reach the +80m threshold. The bump to their effectiveness at higher levels is not such a big deal and makes this actual-cost item not completely worthless for veteran pilots. It was a risky, but well made decision.

Once again, people are not clearly grasping just how expensive this will be if they are priced at barely affording two empty injectors per plex. At that rate, I would just mock whoever spent that much RL currency on a game, much as I do already to any Elite player. Cheers to CCP when suckers like that gobble up hook, line and sinker.

With the changing times and trends, Eve needs this more than false illusions of entitled investment or 'back in my day' talk about how you loved to watch a queue tick-tock its way after you alarm clocked to set the next skill in.

I currently sit just past the point where these will not be very useful for me at cost. I'm alright with that. I'm also alright with getting an awesome fight from a three day old nub. Bring it on.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1191 - 2016-01-25 05:52:48 UTC
I don't think players are as upset as they could be. The real hotness will be in buying a junk character on bazaar for six bil or so, and brain draining all that SP with dirt cheap extractors. Congratulations you just trained 20 million SP for 8 billion ISK.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1192 - 2016-01-25 05:53:34 UTC
Zombeilord Zantra
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1193 - 2016-01-25 06:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zombeilord Zantra
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Roland Fulmer Metesur wrote:

True, unless a large corp uses it to recruit more players who are brand new to eve, I can see that or friends who are willing to help said friends.


friends at one hand and alliances at another. let's for example take one potentially newbie friendly but combat oriented null sec formation. they are always interested in high number of fresh pilots and they are willingly would be providing them with n-amount of skill points required to fit into their doctrines but as a trade of they would ask newbie to fight against those reds or even with greater goals against biggest evil in Eve (goons i guess). Next thing the newbie would be asked is to create twink and start farming SP's on him because everything counts and Eve is not exception so he has to start farming SP's and sell those back to the Corp/Alli, let's say -10% off lowest buy order.

Zombeilord Zantra wrote:


I am not a new player kinda because I could not afford it for a while and basically left if for X amount of months and just started to sub, about 2ish months ago, and all my friends are way ahead of me in training and will be going to null without me, since they worry with my skills being to low I would not be at all useful up there, even though they do not like this idea because they just brushed it off and never took a look at it till I started to talk about it in a positive way, then we won't have to leave anyone behind and all move out their together or that is what I hope.

Course people will still be training things up to a point then use the skill points to boost it past that month of wait to like maybe 15 minutes to 0.

Also people have to know that this will cost real money for the extractors unless one can get them from missions, and SP extractors will cost isk, which not everyone will have the money cause of other bills paying the monthly fee and such, unless you are a rich or spoiled person that is, course I find it to be a good add to the game, and people will most likely accept it and who knows more larger scale wars may happen where the sides are on even terms in strength unlike the wars that start that target the much weaker corps.

Edit: that Rolan fulmer is my other character that I have not worked on, and will say that I did not know that it would be different faces. O.o


sounds like War of Clones tbh. everyone who wants t go to null should have not less than 10M SP please find attached reqired SP's layout.
Not sure what your friends are up to be doing in null but lows SP never been a barrier to go there. you could play a nice bait role, you could be a solid SB pilot at 5m SP level, you could scan etc etc. those are not real hard things to do at low SP level.


Well I could go to low sec but with how many people in the beginning kept telling me to train this or that, I have skills everywhere, and right now I am just building my supplies of ships. lol
Zee Zaugg
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1194 - 2016-01-25 06:13:51 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
The cap is present already with how effective they will be the higher your SP. You can realistically expect the majority of pilots who use this, even aggressively, to slow down dramatically after spending on twenty injectors. Rich ***** capsuleers will exhaust their efforts and/or thin their wallets dramatically once they reach the +80m threshold. The bump to their effectiveness at higher levels is not such a big deal and makes this actual-cost item not completely worthless for veteran pilots. It was a risky, but well made decision.

Once again, people are not clearly grasping just how expensive this will be if they are priced at barely affording two empty injectors per plex. At that rate, I would just mock whoever spent that much RL currency on a game, much as I do already to any Elite player. Cheers to CCP when suckers like that gobble up hook, line and sinker.

With the changing times and trends, Eve needs this more than false illusions of entitled investment or 'back in my day' talk about how you loved to watch a queue tick-tock its way after you alarm clocked to set the next skill in.

I currently sit just past the point where these will not be very useful for me at cost. I'm alright with that. I'm also alright with getting an awesome fight from a three day old nub. Bring it on.



The cap isnt really present because you still get 3/5 of the SP even if you have an extremely veteran player. Thats pocket change to many players, even if they cost the same as a plex. The 150k sp for top players was still abusable, but then, after 85% complaints and 15% saying it wasnt fair to vets, they decided to DOUBLE the sp gained, making it even MORE abusable. There will be no cap unless they set a cap, a HARD cap, as in "can only use a max of 10 per account" or something
Scott Dracov
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1195 - 2016-01-25 06:18:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Scott Dracov
From what I have been reading there was a huge scandal in 2011 where CCP tried to double bill and swindle their customers with micro transactions on top of subscription fees but they were stopped dead in their tracks...

Until now.

What a shock here they are again trying to sneak by with this con job once again.

How do they justify this to themselves? The deceit. the lies. All for the greater good right?



I give you now my fictitious behind the scenes conversation at CCP HQ...

"EVE is the past Valkyrie is the future! If we must destroy EVE to get Valkyrie launched that is a sacrifice we must make! For the greater good!

Occulus won't give us any more R&D cash! Sony won't give us any more R&D cash! OMG! They are launching in less than two months and we have nothing coded! we need more programmers but we already blew all our R&D money on Valkyrie months ago!

What about the millions we made off of all those plex players bought for EVE that are just sitting on the market?

We already spent that money on new servers and Valkyrie even though the accountants said we had to hold it as a liability against the books but you fired them and then used it.

What about SKINS?

They sold well at first until everyone realized we were just having the intern switch the color pallets of existing skins over and over and not actually making any new skins but charging 20 bucks a pop for them anyway now no one buys them.

What about the money from players that pay their subscriptions years in advance?

We spent that money too.

We have hundreds of thousands of customers with accounts paid out years in advance where did the money go!!??!!

It seems that all the players in EVE have either paid us already for their subscriptions years in advance or have so many skill points that they can sit in carriers and rat and buy tons of plex with isk to pay for their accounts and never pay us another dime for as long as they play EVE even for decades to come.

So your telling me we miss managed every dime we have and all the windfall profit we gained from EVE players who are planning to play eve for a decade and paid in advance... all that money is gone?

Yes.

We are broke?

Yes.

To hell with it sell skill points in the Aurum store those morons will buy it up.

They revolted in 2011 when we tried it.

Well sneak it in pretend the players want it even if they revolt give them stats about how much they want to be micro transacted and double charged in spite of the billions those dumb suckers paid us they will pay us more. They will protest but they wont be able to resist SP for sale and will skill cap themselves out on it.

But Sir then they will stop playing EVE after they spend all that money and realize its less fun with nothing to look forward to?

Yeah but who cares EVE is the past Valkyrie is the Future! There can be only one. The trick is to make everyone finish their EVE experience... let them see it all in the next few months by having access to everything. then when they realize its is all just a circle going left or right turning white or red no matter how much SP they have they will look to Valkyrie for new entertainment...

Brilliant!

I know I am brilliant that's why I am the boss.

Now get back to work convincing all those EVE morons how much they want to pay us millions more for SP that will be obsolete in a few months so they loose interest in EVE and get hooked on Valkyrie when it launches in two months. And be quick about it! we need to hire more programmers by the start of February to finish the damn thing to launch in March."

Yes Sir! But Sir what if Valkyrie fails like every other project we have tried to pass off as a successor to EVE?

Do I have to fire you like I did all the other staff that wanted to keep EVE and not commit to Valkyrie?

No Sir! Sorry Sir!"
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#1196 - 2016-01-25 07:13:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Morihei Akachi
Filip Ernaga wrote:
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference.

Players who came in recently can already make a difference. If this change were to prevent you from finding that out, then I think you'd end up missing something pretty awesome.

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1197 - 2016-01-25 07:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Zee Zaugg wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
...



The cap isnt really present because you still get 3/5 of the SP even if you have an extremely veteran player. Thats pocket change to many players, even if they cost the same as a plex. The 150k sp for top players was still abusable, but then, after 85% complaints and 15% saying it wasnt fair to vets, they decided to DOUBLE the sp gained, making it even MORE abusable. There will be no cap unless they set a cap, a HARD cap, as in "can only use a max of 10 per account" or something



I wouldn't say that's abusable. That's legit 2/5 SP going down the toilet. I would really want you to think of what you can skill up with 150k SP when most skills are 1m to take to V at a multiplier of x4. Now take a veteran player and see how many very advanced skills are beyond that multiplier. Racial (x) Titan skill has a multiplier of x16!! Dreadnought racial so-and-so multiplier of x12. ZOMG! Maybe they can train some mining skills and hop into a mining frigate with that injector. Maybe take the Science x1 skill HALFWAY to V. I'm not making this up. 150k is peanuts and so is 500k at cost. The most important feedback you can give atm is to make certain the injectors are not given away. Rest assured, however, in that nothing in the AUR store has ever been 'cheap'.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1198 - 2016-01-25 07:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Rain6637 wrote:
I don't think players are as upset as they could be. The real hotness will be in buying a junk character on bazaar for six bil or so, and brain draining all that SP with dirt cheap extractors. Congratulations you just trained 20 million SP for 8 billion ISK.


I already made a guess that extractors should run around or above 900 AUR... which is not "cheap".

Currently 20 $ / € buy you 30 days of subscription or some 2,000,000 SPs. That's 100,000 SP per buck/euro, so 5 $ worth of SP should be worth 5$/€ of AUR.... that's a 900 AUR package.

Also factor in that MT items always cost more than the nearest lower package... so 950 AUR would make every sense. A PLEX costs more than a month of subscription because it is better (more flexible), and SP extractors will be even better than a PLEX.

Of course, we as players will think that 950 AUR per extractor is batshit insane, but hey: This one is for the money!
Josef Djugashvilis
#1199 - 2016-01-25 07:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Yaasmine wrote:
Filip Ernaga wrote:
As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.

This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.

So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)

This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference.

both of us are examples of new players =)

+1


Dear Yaasmine, you are probably too young to realize this, but all of us us were new players at one time and we all managed perfectly well.

Let me introduce you to a concept, look it up online if you need to...'deferred gratification'

Cash for skills is now, and will always be, a bad idea.

If CCP did not need the extra money, does anyone seriously think that this dumb feature would ever get introduced?

This is not a signature.
Aerious
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1200 - 2016-01-25 09:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Aerious
Filip Ernaga wrote:
As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.

This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.

So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)

This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference.


Welcome to New Eden, i doubt your "hard earned isk" will be enough to purchase a skill injection, you will need a credit card. Shocked

"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."