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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Dibz
Doomheim
#1121 - 2016-01-23 19:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dibz
>.>
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#1122 - 2016-01-23 19:56:10 UTC
Arkorina wrote:
will character bazaar be removed when skill trading will be introduced? it will be a sad day


It's more a case of will anyone put a character up for sale if they can make lots more by selling it piecemeal as injectors
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1123 - 2016-01-23 19:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Dibz wrote:
Jen Drake wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
and see you guys crying about something that the character bazaar already lets you do.


Buying characters and buying SP couldn't be different from each other. If you can't see that then we will all be better off without your posts.


They're not that different. The bazaar is just a crude form of SP purchase.

"But muh character history, muh consequences"

Look at the characters on the bazaar. Most of them have benign, uncontroversial heritage, with little reputation to speak of. And to be honest, if you're a paranoid recruiter, who are you going to be more suspicious of - the bazaar character or the 1 month old character with a clean slate but 30M SP?


The character bazaar was born as a legal alternative to illegal account sharing and/or selling. Same as PLEX was born as a legal alternative to RMT.

Selling skillpoints is a completely different beast. It is a money grab from CCP since there is no way in which the service can be obtained without paying CCP for it. They're not fighting the goodfite against shady practices; they're just charging players again for the same skillpoints they already obtained after paying their subscriptions.

Also skillpoints are not a temporary commodity like a ship or a module, nor are a cosmetic item without consequences to gameplay. They are a mean to obtain an advantage, and they're 99.99% permanent.

Double-charging, pay to win, and opening the door to free to play: This feature is a true beauty in its depravity.
Dibz
Doomheim
#1124 - 2016-01-23 21:23:06 UTC
Yes, I do agree with you there, Indahmawar.
Dusty 3allvalve
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#1125 - 2016-01-23 21:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dusty 3allvalve
Dibz wrote:
Subs are falling but [company] doesn't care because they're making bank on the character services.

Sorry to take you out of context like this, but I have been concerned about this in EvE. Player numbers may drop, but as long as they have the ones that pay...
Don't get me wrong, I love this game. It's just a good point.
Still the biggest problem I see is more catering to the pig-rich. I would elaborate, but I did earlier.
Sarina Aideron
Aideron Corp
#1126 - 2016-01-23 21:47:57 UTC
Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity?
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
#1127 - 2016-01-23 22:37:37 UTC
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity?


This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1128 - 2016-01-23 22:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against.


PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk no matter what, so it's a necessary evil that combats RMT ie something that is acceptable ONLY because you have to have it. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do) and is acceptable because it's somewhat horrible to deal with.

The skill point trading thing crosses a line.

The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company.

It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is.

CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines.


So both PLEX and the character bazaar were necessary evils to curbe RMT. The fact that people are using necessary evils to justify this (in my view) unecessary change says everything you need to know about the incoming change.

And no I'm not quitting the game, I'll adapt as ever. Doesn't improve my view on this though!
I still find it interesting that people view PLEX and the Bazaar as "necessary evils." Mainly because they are in no way necessary. CCP could have taken the stance that most other sub based MMOs were taking at the time with a hard no to RMT, but they didn't. They internalized it.

And lets take a look at the results:

Did illegal RMT stop?
No, people are still being banned for it.

Did it stop other illicit acts for isk generation like botting?
No, people are still being banned for it.

Did it reduce the amount of players benefiting from pay-to-skip style mechanics?
It increased that number since it eliminated the barrier of being a bannable offense.

What it did do in a positive fashion is provide a safer means of RMT for isk buyers and creates a benefit for legitimate players in the form of alternate payment options, but it's still RMT. It's also more RMT than illegal methods. And most importantly it's RMT CCP profits from. This certainly isn't necessary, but it does have it's positives. That said PLEX made RMT it more prolific. If you view that as evil, than PLEX is more of a prolific, sanctioned and profitable "evil" than a "necessary evil."

We're using the current state of the game as a defense for this idea, without the self serving and frankly false reasoning that PLEX this is somehow combating RMT as opposed to channeling its profits from it to CCP.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1129 - 2016-01-23 22:41:57 UTC
Cien Banchiere wrote:
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity?


This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit

Since when does CCP have votes on game decisions other than the CSM members? I'd be surprised if they did take a vote for a decision like this.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1130 - 2016-01-23 22:42:46 UTC
Cien Banchiere wrote:
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity?


This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit


It was a done deal when they realeasd the first blog. There was no point in taking a poll as then it would have to be ignored even more blatantly.
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
#1131 - 2016-01-23 23:01:58 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Cien Banchiere wrote:
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity?


This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit

Since when does CCP have votes on game decisions other than the CSM members? I'd be surprised if they did take a vote for a decision like this.



Never heard of surveys I take it.
Jeven HouseBenyo
Vanity Thy Name Is
#1132 - 2016-01-23 23:09:04 UTC
CCP wants a couple things, other than a cash grab from those willing to shell and shill for SPs.

A quick numbers boost? This will get it. A short term gain, woooo! In exchange it's looking more and more like short term is the only planning going on, tossing out long term gains, let alone any long term stability. It's their company to do with as they wish, their sandbox and it's their choice to run it into the ground if that gives them a giant case of the happys.

For a gaming company that's been out and about as long as CCP, it's got to chafe some hides they're Still a One Hit Wonder.

So if they want to pillage and burn Eve Online customers for cash to back another project, let them. It's their product to mangle after all. To those that told others to sukk in a bottom lip and evolve on FozzieSov changes as some left, told to get better lenses in our glasses after Icongate and some didn't ever come back, and for the diehards that aren't getting how destructive SPs for RL money will be long term and telling those that won't drink the Kool-Ade to HTFU....

Eventually it will be your Shiny on the chopping block. I hope for your sake there's still enough paying attention and interested in pushing back to tell you to sukk it up and deal just like everyone you told off and aren't around to support saving your Shiny.

Not with a Bang, a Rage, or an Implosion.

With a Fade Out.

How will I deal with this SPs for CC numbers? I won't support an insanity like this with my finances. Will Not buy them. Will Not sell them. Will Not use them. If I get one in a gank loot, I'll have to think hard and long on whether to jetcan it some obscure place it or just... Trash It.

>Jeven

Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.

'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.

Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.

Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P

No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1133 - 2016-01-23 23:26:46 UTC
Cien Banchiere wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Cien Banchiere wrote:
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity?


This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit

Since when does CCP have votes on game decisions other than the CSM members? I'd be surprised if they did take a vote for a decision like this.



Never heard of surveys I take it.

Don't understand the difference between a satisfaction survey and a vote for a mechanic I take it.
Memphis Baas
#1134 - 2016-01-23 23:36:14 UTC
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Why was there no poll about this change?


What's so hard to understand? The absence of a poll is the answer to your question: poll or no poll, everyone loving it or everyone hating it, CCP is implementing this.

If you want to be furious, go ahead, you don't need to wait until they ignore the poll results and implement this anyway. Be furious now.
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
#1135 - 2016-01-23 23:37:42 UTC
Since when are surveys specifically for customer satisfaction? When did they get demoted to strictly that function?

As far as I can remember surveys have been used to gauge how customers view new concepts. Companies do it all the time.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1136 - 2016-01-23 23:40:54 UTC
Cien Banchiere wrote:
Since when are surveys specifically for customer satisfaction? When did they get demoted to strictly that function?

As far as I can remember surveys have been used to gauge how customers view new concepts. Companies do it all the time.

Since when did CCP make a habit of providing other forms of surveys?

Sure, we can talk about expectations of things CCP routinely doesn't do, but how sensible is that?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1137 - 2016-01-24 00:08:08 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Arkorina wrote:
will character bazaar be removed when skill trading will be introduced? it will be a sad day


It's more a case of will anyone put a character up for sale if they can make lots more by selling it piecemeal as injectors

I concur. I plan to transfer some SP from my confused marauder / mining booster character, who I bought from bazaar thinking I could make something useful out of her. Plenty more where she came from.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1138 - 2016-01-24 01:22:03 UTC
"I can't fly this ship."

"Stop being poor and buy a skill injector."

"Ugh, **** you guys. I'm going back to playing LoL."
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1139 - 2016-01-24 01:40:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zozoll Neblyn
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Dibz wrote:
Jen Drake wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
and see you guys crying about something that the character bazaar already lets you do.


Buying characters and buying SP couldn't be different from each other. If you can't see that then we will all be better off without your posts.


They're not that different. The bazaar is just a crude form of SP purchase.

"But muh character history, muh consequences"

Look at the characters on the bazaar. Most of them have benign, uncontroversial heritage, with little reputation to speak of. And to be honest, if you're a paranoid recruiter, who are you going to be more suspicious of - the bazaar character or the 1 month old character with a clean slate but 30M SP?


The character bazaar was born as a legal alternative to illegal account sharing and/or selling. Same as PLEX was born as a legal alternative to RMT.

Selling skillpoints is a completely different beast. It is a money grab from CCP since there is no way in which the service can be obtained without paying CCP for it. They're not fighting the goodfite against shady practices; they're just charging players again for the same skilpoints they already obtained after paying their subscriptions.

Also skillpoints are not a temporary commodity like a ship or a module, nor are a cosmetic item without consequences to gameplay. They are a mean to obtain an advantage, and they're 99.99% permanent.

Double-charging, pay to win, and opening the door to free to play: This feature is a true beauty in its depravity.


Yeah. That's definitely where I'd draw the line also.

What we often forget about a game with market simulation is that whenever the bar raises, you must either reach it, or lose all your profitability.

If pay to win enables people to raise that bar to a place that cannot practically be reached by any other means (beside paying), then paying is no longer an option. It's a requisite to enjoy the game at all.

If paying becomes the only winning strategy, and exceeds the other concerns by a large enough margin, then it will no longer be a game of strategy at all. It will just be a game of wallets.



... On the other hand, the present situation is that it is a game of "who has been subbed the longest". Where the only way to really win is to have already been here for a long time. If you join late, the only way to catch up is to build a time machine, go back in time, and start a subscription 5+ years ago.

I think CCP's goal is not so much just to make a quick buck (although that is probably part of it). But rather they want it to be possible to expand their player base. Even with the best retention imaginable, the best you can do is 100%. You can't grow your player base without adding newbs.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1140 - 2016-01-24 02:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Primary This Rifter wrote:
"I can't fly this ship."

"Stop being poor and buy a skill injector."

"Ugh, **** you guys. I'm going back to playing LoL."

I guess the expectation is that we all become jerks to our allies because of this.

We sound like we're not very fun to play with if that's our expectation, with or without tradable sp.