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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#821 - 2016-01-20 22:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
From the hundreds of replies you made to the opponents on this in the previous blog - pick one about PLEX and one about SP and then reiterate your reply.

You should try WOW - Already did.
I know you would like WOW - You couldn't be more wrong. But hey, we can't go without the 0 effort WoW related replies.
Well maybe not the Permanent Legendary Weapons - You can't buy them in game Considering those have no relation to this we'll just file it under "more BS to distract from the fact that you don't have an answer"
Actually, The hundreds of replies didn't have a strait answer despite being directly asked by me several times. Plenty of outrage and indignation, but no justification of how SP is both not important enough to consider worth granting because everyone can get by without it, yet so important that it can't be granted or traded. Presumably there should be some actual consequence right? What is it? People having more SP itself doesn't mean anything without leading to some other consequence.

We've yet to get that far.



I think you did a wonderful job posting hundreds & hundreds of replies expounding your point of view on every possible objection to the proposed trading of Skill Points.

Permanent Legendary Weapons are something you work towards, they are an achievement , a goal.
They are something you cannot buy - unlike skillpoints
- is this a distraction to you maybe to many its the whole point
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#822 - 2016-01-20 22:57:17 UTC
MECHcore wrote:
:O i forgot something !

Quote:
Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card.
- MECHcore


Nuff said.

Sub Paid (via CC no less).
Queued skills for the next several months.
Logged out right now.
Still getting SP.

Hard work indeed.

Also, that SP will bridge that experience gap right? That's how SP works right?
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#823 - 2016-01-20 22:59:42 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That basically hints on the issue I have with opposing this. Would the game suffer detriment if, whether through earning the isk yourself or buying the efforts of those who did through PLEX (since for all intents we've effectively accepted that), you could fly an Apoc or Raven tomorrow? If so how?


No, I do not believe that being able to suddenly fly an Apoc next month by trading ISK, whether from selling a PLEX or from ratting, for SP would in any way cause the game to suffer. I do not believe our neighbors whom we PvP against (BOS, TISHU, CYN0, -TC-) being able to do similar would in any way cause the game to suffer.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#824 - 2016-01-20 23:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Iowa Banshee wrote:
I think you did a wonderful job posting hundreds & hundreds of replies expounding your point of view on every possible objection to the proposed trading of Skill Points.

Permanent Legendary Weapons are something you work towards, they are an achievement , a goal.
They are something you cannot buy - unlike skillpoints
- is this a distraction to you maybe to many its the whole point
Maybe you missed another point stated several times. We never worked for SP. Initially we remembered to log in when skills ended for SP. That was reduced to logging in within 24 hours of a skill ending for SP. Now it's logging in as infrequently as one can get away with for SP.

I've actually played and "worked" towards several goals but SP was never one of them, mainly because no mechanic to support that has ever existed.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#825 - 2016-01-20 23:09:55 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


I can generate a couple billion in profit per week with a few minutes of effort a day with manufacturing on a single character.

PI income, particularly for pure factory planets, is ******* *ludicrous* right now thanks to the massive speculative pre-build of citadel components currently taking place.

You are possibly just bad at the game.


I generate 2-3b/day, which you can verify on eve-mogul. So don't worry about my income.

A real "newbro" that injects some SP won't generate any billions anytime soon in industry, because he doesn't know the game, doesn't know people, doesn't know mechanics and doesn't have an army of alt accounts.

Injecting SP doesn't equate to pressing "craft" button and swimming in incoming isk. Not mentioning everything else that goes along with it, as stupid BPCs and materials don't materialize at your poses/stations/outposts out of thin air (or space). There goes logistics, perhaps other people working alongside you, maybe contracts, maybe slaving alts (even if it's a stupid scout or webber for a freighter).

PI generally require at least few alts, some logistics as well as knowing mechanics of this years old simple but rigid and tiring interface. Not mentioning knowing wtf is citadel, P4 product and so on.

And these're just barebone essentials in a nutshell. A genuinly new player can inject 100m SP and it will still be completely useless as his initial knowledge is 0.

But it will enable that player to slowly dig into the subject(s) now instead of year(s) later.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
MECHcore
Saiyans United
#826 - 2016-01-20 23:12:21 UTC  |  Edited by: MECHcore
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
MECHcore wrote:
:O i forgot something !

Quote:
Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card.
- MECHcore


Nuff said.

Sub Paid (via CC no less).
Queued skills for the next several months.
Logged out right now.
Still getting SP.

Hard work indeed.

Also, that SP will bridge that experience gap right? That's how SP works right?


So you say =

Sub Paid (via CC no less).
Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started )

Queued skills for the next several months.
You never queued skills ?

Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? )

Since 2004 late April:
Time Online = 701d 22h 18m
Daily average = 3h 55m 59s

Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production.

Still getting SP.
Not sure whats wrong with that ??

EvEboard MECHcore

I play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then, back your statement up pls.

Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#827 - 2016-01-20 23:18:00 UTC
MECHcore wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
MECHcore wrote:
:O i forgot something !

Quote:
Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card.
- MECHcore


Nuff said.

Sub Paid (via CC no less).
Queued skills for the next several months.
Logged out right now.
Still getting SP.

Hard work indeed.

Also, that SP will bridge that experience gap right? That's how SP works right?


So you say =

Sub Paid (via CC no less).
Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started )

Queued skills for the next several months.
You never queued skills ?

Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? )

Since 2004 late April:
Time Online = 701d 22h 18m
Daily average = 3h 55m 59s

Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production.

Still getting SP.
Not sure whats wrong with that ??

EvEboard MECHcore

I play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then, back your statement up pls.

Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion.


You're not wrong. They point is that somebody spending ISK, however acquired, on Skill Injectors isn't wrong either.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#828 - 2016-01-20 23:18:59 UTC
MECHcore wrote:
So you say =

Sub Paid (via CC no less).
Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started )

Queued skills for the next several months.
You never queued skills ?

Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? )

Since 2004 late April:
Time Online = 701d 22h 18m
Daily average = 3h 55m 59s

Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production.

Still getting SP.
Not sure whats wrong with that ??

EvEboard MECHcore

I play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then.

Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion.

In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.

But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.

That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.

Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#829 - 2016-01-20 23:25:58 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
MECHcore wrote:
So you say =

Sub Paid (via CC no less).
Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started )

Queued skills for the next several months.
You never queued skills ?

Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? )

Since 2004 late April:
Time Online = 701d 22h 18m
Daily average = 3h 55m 59s

Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production.

Still getting SP.
Not sure whats wrong with that ??

EvEboard MECHcore

I play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then.

Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion.

In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.

But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.

That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.

Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective.

Eh you know, this is what we're reduced to. By the end the previous 300+ page thread, we'd seen everything worthwhile repeated over the last 200 if not 290 pages.

But now we get new (ie: the leftover arguments of 300 pages) stuff. Content.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#830 - 2016-01-20 23:35:14 UTC
Got a question who is ready and how much you are going to charge for 500k of SPs ? Not knowing thr extractor's price yet would like to see how much 1 SP price tag would be.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
MECHcore
Saiyans United
#831 - 2016-01-20 23:41:10 UTC  |  Edited by: MECHcore
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.

But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.

That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.

Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective.



"In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed."
Take notice that i agreed on myself Blink

"But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work"

Funny because 11 years ago or so, i did not get any +3 implants for free, i had to rat like crazy in 0.0 to afford me those ( planned in Castor patch anyone ? ), and oh yes they where back then in 05 100m+ each, i could afford it thx to being persistent ratting for days next to pvp and eventually having an officer rat, peeps standing inline at npc stations just after DT as the first batch of +3 implants where released, and oh yes i gained loads more SP with those Blink

So yes instead of buying Plex cards you had to make ingame iskies anyway possible.

And before all the Plex thingy, people tended to "subscribe" to the game.

I bought some few Plex in the past, to give a certain project a kickstart, tbh i wish they never released it, the game is losing its soul.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#832 - 2016-01-20 23:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
MECHcore wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.

But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.

That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.

Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective.



"In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed."
Take notice that i agreed on myself Blink

"But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work"

Funny because 11 years ago or so, i did not get any +3 implants for free, i had to rat like crazy in 0.0 to afford me those ( planned in Castor patch anyone ? ), and oh yes they where back then in 05 100m+ each, i could afford it thx to being persistent ratting for days next to pvp and eventually having an officer rat, peeps standing inline at npc stations just after DT as the first batch of +3 implants where released, and oh yes i gained loads more SP with those Blink

So yes instead of buying Plex cards you had to make ingame iskies anyway possible.

And before all the Plex thingy, people tended to "subscribe" to the game.

I bought some few Plex in the past, to give a certain project a kickstart, tbh i wish they never released it, the game is losing its soul.
Between characters I have implants ranging from +3's to +5's in partial or full sets. But those aren't needed to gain SP. They do notably enhance rate of gain though, and do require effort to afford, BUT! so will skill injectors with the exact same options. So your effort for implants, which can be bypassed by PLEX, counts but someone else for skill injectors doesn't?

You've essentially created a double standard there. No one is getting anything for free, so bringing up that you didn't get implants for free puts that at the exact same level as this proposal.

So you're still not engaging in "hard work" for your SP. You did for implants, which you may have had to replace per your in game choices, but the SP came from the same effortless mechanic. And further your endorsed a mechanic has the same potential monetary drawbacks while providing a potentially permanent increase in rate of gain.

Also, PLEX only works because people actually earn isk, so obviously people earn isk, that hasn't and can't change.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#833 - 2016-01-21 00:56:38 UTC
It's time to see the statistics for this thread

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#834 - 2016-01-21 00:59:16 UTC
Specia1 K wrote:
It's time to see the statistics for this thread




Didn't make the cut; posting to pad stats.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#835 - 2016-01-21 01:00:11 UTC
TBH, a simple "AYE" or "NAY" would suffice.

The last thread beat the horse to a pulp.

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#836 - 2016-01-21 01:00:58 UTC
Nay

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#837 - 2016-01-21 01:06:59 UTC
Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#838 - 2016-01-21 01:12:36 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time.


So why are you here repeatedly thrashing that horse?Roll

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#839 - 2016-01-21 01:17:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time.


"For some time" meaning, "For some time prior to even the first blog's posting date?"

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#840 - 2016-01-21 01:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Specia1 K wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time.
So why are you here repeatedly thrashing that horse?Roll
Because I'm not debating the decision, but rather trying to understand the reasoning behind the opposition. That and pointing out where it seems to logically fail.

I've no allusions at this point, nor have I had any in the other thread, that my words alone have any specific effect on the outcome.

SurrenderMonkey wrote:
"For some time" meaning, "For some time prior to even the first blog's posting date?"
Probably in some way, I don't think it would have made the stage of the first blog, being as controversial as it was even before the CSM, if someone in CCP wasn't pushing hard for it.