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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#641 - 2016-01-19 21:50:02 UTC
ViolentDesire wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Udonor wrote:
Hmmm....T2-T3 SP retraining injections?

For a mere 3 PLEX of aurum, players could convert all skills to SP then restructure all their skills. Take a toon from horrendous boring industrial toon to uber PVP toon.

Sounds like a excellent way for CCP to retain players who would otherwise quit after they finally get a clue as to why EVE is worth playing. But normally would not have the heart to spend 6 months training up to have an acceptable vet level PVP toon. And CCP gets to make some extra rl cash to keep the company and EVE going.


right as a new player you tell me i need to shell out cash just to play the game then you tell me i have to pay more to play competitively that will be great for bringing in newbros


Correct. Before this game breaking change, you were unable to catch up with older players, now you will also be unable to catch up with a lot of newer players.

Apparently this solves a problem.


no now you will be unable to catch up to richer players new or old

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Charlie Corday
Doomheim
#642 - 2016-01-19 21:52:19 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Charlie Corday wrote:
Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.


Seriously, do you actually trust 1-day characters? Because personally I bug out when I see the known gank ships (certain destroyers, for example), I don't even wait to show info on the character. Destroyer in the overview? Bug out!!! And even then it's too late.

Do you trust a 1-day character coming near you to mine in his Venture? Because they're the perfect "warp to fleet member at 0 km" setup to kill you with point blank heavy damage suicide gank ships.

1-day doesn't mean anything. You help 1-day newbies in the Newbie Q/A forums, not in game. Can't trust anyone in-game.

So how many SP they have is moot.




And I will repeat this for you..

The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#643 - 2016-01-19 21:53:16 UTC
ViolentDesire wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
right as a new player you tell me i need to shell out cash just to play the game then you tell me i have to pay more to play competitively that will be great for bringing in newbros


Correct. Before this game breaking change, you were unable to catch up with older players, now you will also be unable to catch up with a lot of newer players.

Apparently this solves a problem.
Wait, so you couldn't catch up before and that didn't stop players from being competitive, but now that same SP gap does prevent players from being competitive if it's more fluid? It's almost as if SP isn't actually a measure of competitiveness where competence comes into play UNLESS you're arguing against this idea and still only then.
Cixi
#644 - 2016-01-19 21:53:56 UTC
Charlie Corday wrote:
Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.

Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve.


If someone like this gank you maybe you should re-think how you play EvE.
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#645 - 2016-01-19 21:54:38 UTC
I see a problem with this whole process.

1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.

Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).

Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.

Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.




2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.

Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.

Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.

Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?

"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#646 - 2016-01-19 21:56:15 UTC
Charlie Corday wrote:
And I will repeat this for you..

The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great.
My magic dollar respec button is broken. It' supposed to work without consequence right? Mine seems to be costing 70% of the SP I want to move.

And oddly, your complaint here is in no way related to the initial post you made.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#647 - 2016-01-19 21:56:53 UTC
Proddy Scun wrote:
Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?

Huh... down to 1m huh, indeed something seems wrong with that...

but not what you might have been thinking

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Charlie Corday
Doomheim
#648 - 2016-01-19 22:05:08 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Charlie Corday wrote:
And I will repeat this for you..

The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great.
My magic dollar respec button is broken. It' supposed to work without consequence right? Mine seems to be costing 70% of the SP I want to move.

And oddly, your complaint here is in no way related to the initial post you made.



Oddly your ability to think deeply is impaired. Time for an injection.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#649 - 2016-01-19 22:05:28 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?

Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.

m

No thanks. Us OCD folks would know it is there, and it would still drive us nuts.

It is kind of like hanging a picture to hide a hole in a wall, or moving furniture to hide stains on a rug.

Plus it would still appear in the API.

Example: Confused Amarr Starship Engineering with Amarr Engineering Systems *cries* I'd even pay $20 to fix that; it bugs me that much.



LOL you must be fun to live with.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#650 - 2016-01-19 22:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
Cixi wrote:
Charlie Corday wrote:
Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.

Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve.


If someone like this gank you maybe you should re-think how you play EvE.



Cixi - were you thinking ?

(1) such a 1 day/1 hour toon would be an inexperienced Newbie unable to make use of all that SP and ISK?

It takes a while to just read all current EVE tactics not counting practicing them.

(2) Or were you being realistic and suggestive?

That is:

sure this trick is more likely to pulled by those with lots of in-game experience i.e. vets going back to 2003.

but if you are a smart vet yourself, you should be doing this yourself. So you either won't be attacked because you are too new or you will be positioned to counter-surprise them.

(3) Or what idiot loots at toon ages to judge threat level?

Honestly CCP should just remove this info as useless given that the toon birthdate info is given without revealing gaps in subscription or traded toon vs original player ownership.


The part where you said anyone who worried didn't know how to play was clear. Just questioning what specific reason for not worrying came first to your mind.
Memphis Baas
#651 - 2016-01-19 22:08:57 UTC
Charlie Corday wrote:

And I will repeat this for you..

The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great.


Well thanks for repeating, but "consequence" is bullshit, much as "respect." Being a game, there are bugs, there are nerfs to ships, there are stupid things like bounties that can "ruin" your character just cause you said "hi" in local, and there's plenty of consequence-free scamming, ganking, and alt-cycling.

So if I chose to train for capital ships 3 years ago, and now CCP is making burritos out of them, how exactly is that "consequence" under my control in any way? This game changes in spite of our best plans, and this is a tool to mitigate CCP's whimsy. I'm sure they're tired of having to program all those skill reimbursements on patch day, to "satisfy" everyone; now they can just wipe out capital ships or whatever part of the game they want, and when we start shooting Jita monuments they can just point to the skill extractors available on NEX.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#652 - 2016-01-19 22:09:21 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Proddy Scun wrote:
I see a problem with this whole process.

1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.

Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).

Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.

Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.




2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.

Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.

Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.

Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?

"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.



Do u sleep in a bed made of tinfoil and use a 13 layer headwrap ?

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#653 - 2016-01-19 22:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Charlie Corday wrote:
Oddly your ability to think deeply is impaired. Time for an injection.
Great job justifying your position. Man, I'm convinced now with that on topic, well reasoned response that didn't resort to an off the cuff insult.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#654 - 2016-01-19 22:13:49 UTC
Proddy Scun wrote:
(3) Or what idiot loots at toon ages to judge threat level?

Honestly CCP should just remove this info as useless given that the toon birthdate info is given without revealing gaps in subscription or traded toon vs original player ownership.

Something about using show info on names in local

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#655 - 2016-01-19 22:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
I'm pretty ambivalent regarding the entire notion of skill trading. I'm hard-pressed to really find anything overly objectionable (to me) about the idea itself. This part of the blog really stood out to me, however:

Quote:
The blog sparked a really great discussion in the EVE community. We decided to be fairly hands off and see where it would lead without us trying to persuade anyone. We weren’t sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that you’re also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release.


Did you guys hire a Fox News staffer to ghost write this?

On its very best day, the response to this idea could never be described as anything other than, "Extremely contentious." Making it sound like it has been predominantly supported and, as good little Devs, you've listened to the community, is weapons-grade PR spin.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Cixi
#656 - 2016-01-19 22:20:35 UTC
Proddy Scun wrote:
Cixi wrote:
Charlie Corday wrote:
Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.

Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve.


If someone like this gank you maybe you should re-think how you play EvE.



Cixi - were you thinking ?

(1) such a 1 day/1 hour toon would be an inexperienced Newbie unable to make use of all that SP and ISK?

It takes a while to just read all current EVE tactics not counting practicing them.

(2) Or were you being realistic and suggestive?

That is:

sure this trick is more likely to pulled by those with lots of in-game experience i.e. vets going back to 2003.

but if you are a smart vet yourself, you should be doing this yourself. So you either won't be attacked because you are too new or you will be positioned to counter-surprise them.

(3) Or what idiot loots at toon ages to judge threat level?

Honestly CCP should just remove this info as useless given that the toon birthdate info is given without revealing gaps in subscription or traded toon vs original player ownership.


The part where you said anyone who worried didn't know how to play was clear. Just questioning what specific reason for not worrying came first to your mind.


If you get ganked it doesn't matter how much SP the ganker have, this is what I meant. A ganking alt takes less than month to train, and nobody will over train them even with transferable SP

So maybe transferable SP will lead to an increase number of gankers, but I will certainly not worry about them more than I am now, because I know how to fly around without being a target.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#657 - 2016-01-19 22:23:49 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
Proddy Scun wrote:
I see a problem with this whole process.

1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.

Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).

Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.

Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.




2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.

Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.

Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.

Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?

"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.



Do u sleep in a bed made of tinfoil and use a 13 layer headwrap ?


Whoohoo - I hadn't though of that - I know several people I can phone up and ask them to use the PLEX grace period to trade some extractor and fill em-up for some cheap skill points.

Is this against the EULA ? - If it is would giving them a PLEX to make the account active before I strip-mine it be OK?

.... and at no time would I ever consider offering real life cash for them to do this trade also I would never consider advertising online for people with redundant accounts to do this as that would also be against the EULA terms
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#658 - 2016-01-19 22:24:27 UTC
Well some gank alts are pretty carefully trained (though certainly a simple catalyst works well too) and are basically just another type of specialized alt which uses blasters and occasionally projectiles.

These of course in the line of duty are also -10 sec alts, which the ganker knows how to use properly, unlike the odd imaginings of people who are being ganked by such specialized alts and feel a special pain.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#659 - 2016-01-19 22:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Whoohoo - I hadn't though of that - I know several people I can phone up and ask them to use the PLEX grace period to trade some extractor and fill em-up for some cheap skill points.

Is this against the EULA ? - If it is would giving them a PLEX to make the account active before I strip-mine it be OK?

.... and at no time would I ever consider offering real life cash for them to do this trade also I would never consider advertising online for people with redundant accounts to do this as that would also be against the EULA terms

Oh my, did you also take all the ships and stuff off their accounts as well for nothing in return?

And transfer all their isk?

Hmm...


If the character is good, sell on bazaar and transfer all the isk.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#660 - 2016-01-19 22:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
helana Tsero wrote:
Proddy Scun wrote:
I see a problem with this whole process.

1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.

Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).

Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.

Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.




2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.

Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.

Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.

Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?

"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.



Do u sleep in a bed made of tinfoil and use a 13 layer headwrap ?



LOL of course.

But your an infant if you play EVE and still do not realize a few people scam anything that can be scammed.

Not looking at any secret conspiracies. Though occasionally Watergate stuff does really occur.

Wives & GF action? FIrst you the one who assigned numbers in your head about likely this is to happen - so your the one with tin hat expectations. I stated none. But I have had 5 corp members who had GF physcially trash their EVE computer over 3 years & corp was not that big. True only 2 got online and messed directly with EVE toons. But it apparently happens when guys try to recruit GF into EVE or answer questions about what they are doing. Just like GF can mess with rl bank account etc on occasion. Yup I do think there were probably warning signs and stupid moves by the guys. My guess is that EVE geeks tend to be less picky about GF behavior and genrally unwise in relationships compared to general population. IDK just expectations.

I know at least 1 player who makes a point of collecting account info from people who quit EVE. His intent I guess is to have toons for spying and dirty work IF he needs them. He is not subscribing them now. But if this CCP deal goes through without restrictions -- well for the cost of 1 month subscription he can probably get 3+ PLEX worth of profit. More on select mature accounts.

*** But the people who scream "tin hat" are often the people that I find mostly likely to be cashing in on some loophole. they scream "tin hat" because someone is messing with their big potential windfall. But you are right most the people in any demographic just don't care until it effects them directly and its too late to prevent or get in on the "good" deal. ***