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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2016-01-18 22:36:35 UTC
Do I like it? Still no.

Am I leaving because of that? Nope, I can adapt.

If you decide that you cannot adapt to changing game conditions please remember to donate your things to Operation Magic School Bus

Adapting to changing conditions and changing rules is a very strong part of this game but I understand if some find that the changes take us too far from the original intent and find the new game unpalatable.

To me? It just feels wrong. But I will survive and play my own way. I don't like the character bazarre, never made me quit. Just don't like it.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#342 - 2016-01-18 22:38:11 UTC
DmitryEKT wrote:
Luna Bowman wrote:
Even as a newbie, i see a problem. The problem is called insta-alts. Be it gank, market, mining, anything. CCP, any stance on how this impacts the game ?

doesn't affect it in any way, because character bazaar already exists.



Ye. Now a new character can put a bazaar toon into the SP meat grinder and keep his old/new/preferred name/character. They will be bought for this very purpose now, and sold for parts. Gruesome and funny, in a very Eve way.

I am fine with this system, as it does not introduce or inject SP into the system. It rewards new players most and immediately puts to rest the argument of never being able to catch up or being forever less effective than the other guy 'that's been here longer'. It shifts SP from one place to another with diminishing returns. I can't see a way it can be gamed.

Well done, sirs. It has come at a vital time when we will be receiving many new players because of Valkyrie on the Oculus Rift.
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
#343 - 2016-01-18 22:38:16 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
Erotisk Folkdans wrote:
Zee Zaugg wrote:

Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way.


Ooh I was waiting for this one. You really can't stand the thought of new players getting something you didn't get, can you? They must be denied! Please CCP, don't let new players be competitive!

They can die in their new ships and get experience just as easy. You just can't kill them as easy.

I would suggest before you fall asleep tonight, think long and hard about all those new players having fun with a little more SP. Hurts, doesn't it?

Pathetic.


As I see it, the concerns are not about being able to grind noobs into dust. There are a couple of real concerns related to the market. I understand that you might not care about those concerns. But if you read the rest of that guy's post, newbros would still be able to catch up. The point of his post was to limit the damage this kind of a change could do to the market.


I think you might confuse the post I was quoting with another post? Either way, that line I quoted really says it all.

sp trading is the best thing since sliced bittervet
Kisloved Algaert
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#344 - 2016-01-18 22:44:12 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

Adapting to changing conditions and changing rules is a very strong part of this game but I understand if some find that the changes take us too far from the original intent and find the new game unpalatable.

But the game is not going to be changed.
The attitude toward it is.
It's like making chess a casino game.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#345 - 2016-01-18 22:44:41 UTC
Would it be possible to get a list of which CSM members voiced support for SP-trading?

If this travesty is here to stay, at minimum, I'd like to make sure I'm voting for different candidates in 2016.

Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#346 - 2016-01-18 22:46:27 UTC
Erotisk Folkdans wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
Erotisk Folkdans wrote:
Zee Zaugg wrote:

Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way.


Ooh I was waiting for this one. You really can't stand the thought of new players getting something you didn't get, can you? They must be denied! Please CCP, don't let new players be competitive!

They can die in their new ships and get experience just as easy. You just can't kill them as easy.

I would suggest before you fall asleep tonight, think long and hard about all those new players having fun with a little more SP. Hurts, doesn't it?

Pathetic.


As I see it, the concerns are not about being able to grind noobs into dust. There are a couple of real concerns related to the market. I understand that you might not care about those concerns. But if you read the rest of that guy's post, newbros would still be able to catch up. The point of his post was to limit the damage this kind of a change could do to the market.


I think you might confuse the post I was quoting with another post? Either way, that line I quoted really says it all.


I wasn't confusing the post. I quoted the same post. What you quoted was the emotional "BUT WHY" from that guy. His idea may have been based around wanting to stomp noobs harder (I didn't get that feeling from his post), but the end result would make the system a bit more palatable for a lot of the bitter vets without harming the newbros wanting to catch up. It's further down in the post that you quoted.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#347 - 2016-01-18 22:48:24 UTC
CCP Cognac wrote:

This will mean that we will need to do some changes to skill training which will hopefully also allow you to inject skill books you don't have the prereqs instead of having to haul them around waiting for that prereq to finish(no promises this will be available on realease).
Damn.. more stuff removed from loot drops and loss mails.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Demica Diaz
SE-1
#348 - 2016-01-18 22:48:32 UTC
There are many games atm that are made to be hard and tedious until player swings his credit card and world is smiling again. I know CCP is not that type of company but EVE isnt exactly Hello Kitty Online. I really hope new bro wont see EVE Online as one of "those" games.

On the other. As somewhat older player I love feature to get rid of useless skills I trained. Bear
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#349 - 2016-01-18 22:53:08 UTC
Any idea on Arum cost for the extractor ?

My Rough estimates & Guesses are:-

$20 buys 1 PLEX (excluding bulk & offers) / which equals 1 multiple training certificate that creates (standard implants) average 1.5 million skill points - Enough for 3 inject-able lots

$20 buys 3600 Aurum (excluding bulk & offers) - Divide by 3 = 1200

My best guess is 1 extractor will cost 1200 Aurum


Will it kill the the Character Bazaar ?
All those carefully crafted characters based on precise training of queues may be worth buying from the bazaar but for the seller they are the same as any other meat Popsicle with the same number of skill points. After all why would you sell a toon at Bazaar prices when you could break it into injectors and make lots more ISK.

jason hill
Red vs Blue Flight Academy
#350 - 2016-01-18 22:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: jason hill
Demica Diaz wrote:
There are many games atm that are made to be hard and tedious until player swings his credit card and world is smiling again. I know CCP is not that type of company but EVE isnt exactly Hello Kitty Online. I really hope new bro wont see EVE Online as one of "those" games.

On the other. As somewhat older player I love feature to get rid of useless skills I trained. Bear


yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?



its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2016-01-18 22:55:11 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Any idea on Arum cost for the extractor ?

My Rough estimates & Guesses are:-

$20 buys 1 PLEX (excluding bulk & offers) / which equals 1 multiple training certificate that creates (standard implants) average 1.5 million skill points - Enough for 3 inject-able lots

$20 buys 3600 Aurum (excluding bulk & offers) - Divide by 3 = 1200

My best guess is 1 extractor will cost 1200 Aurum
Why would the injector cost the same (actually more at peak training rate) as the SP?
Shova'k
The Bank Of Jita
#352 - 2016-01-18 22:55:49 UTC
Kyt Thrace wrote:
OK, My question is simple.

After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.

I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.

Please answer this CCP.



i would also like to know this as i have a some what extreme level of OCD with my skill sheet and seeing a bunch of lvl 0's would just not work for me.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2016-01-18 22:59:57 UTC
jason hill wrote:
yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?

its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo
Not sure this argument even holds fully true with the number of skills that have changed function or prerequisites that have shifted.
Jugular Vein
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#354 - 2016-01-18 23:03:50 UTC
Shova'k wrote:
Kyt Thrace wrote:
OK, My question is simple.

After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.

I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.

Please answer this CCP.



i would also like to know this as i have a some what extreme level of OCD with my skill sheet and seeing a bunch of lvl 0's would just not work for me.


Conversely, I would like to inject skills for which I don't have the prerequisites ---- which would mean having the skill at 0 in the sheet and unable to train it to 1 until the prereqs are met.
Sturmwolke
#355 - 2016-01-18 23:09:03 UTC
Workable idea, but 5-50mil bracket 0.8 multiplier is set too high. Skill trading increases the pace of the game, the lower the bar the faster pace. The entirety of EVE isn't built for this pace. It's like trying to shoehorn a Porsche engine onto a horsecart. You might get away it short term, but long term is anyone's guess.

The bar for the 5-50mil bracket ought to be raised to ~0.5-0.67 to skew the the distribution more towards < 5mil SP chars. With the current posted rate, I'm guessing the distribution curve sits within the 5-50mil bracket - the penalty isn't big enough for players to think twice about. That said, the lack of granularity to the brackets is puzzling. 10mil (~6months training) and 20mil SPs (~1 year training) are fairly std milestone for a typical character and they've all been lumped under the 5-50mil bracket. The current scheme is too simplistic. You can do better than this.
jason hill
Red vs Blue Flight Academy
#356 - 2016-01-18 23:13:42 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
jason hill wrote:
yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?

its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo
Not sure this argument even holds fully true with the number of skills that have changed function or prerequisites that have shifted.




well actually it does ... the learning skills as an example .....but we got recompensed for those particular ones .
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
#357 - 2016-01-18 23:15:17 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
Erotisk Folkdans wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
Erotisk Folkdans wrote:
Zee Zaugg wrote:

Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way.


Ooh I was waiting for this one. You really can't stand the thought of new players getting something you didn't get, can you? They must be denied! Please CCP, don't let new players be competitive!

They can die in their new ships and get experience just as easy. You just can't kill them as easy.

I would suggest before you fall asleep tonight, think long and hard about all those new players having fun with a little more SP. Hurts, doesn't it?

Pathetic.


As I see it, the concerns are not about being able to grind noobs into dust. There are a couple of real concerns related to the market. I understand that you might not care about those concerns. But if you read the rest of that guy's post, newbros would still be able to catch up. The point of his post was to limit the damage this kind of a change could do to the market.


I think you might confuse the post I was quoting with another post? Either way, that line I quoted really says it all.


I wasn't confusing the post. I quoted the same post. What you quoted was the emotional "BUT WHY" from that guy. His idea may have been based around wanting to stomp noobs harder (I didn't get that feeling from his post), but the end result would make the system a bit more palatable for a lot of the bitter vets without harming the newbros wanting to catch up. It's further down in the post that you quoted.


Yeah I read it. I didn't agree with it and found the line I quoted pretty revealing. I'm not big fan of the "I had it hard so you must have it hard too"-thing.

sp trading is the best thing since sliced bittervet
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#358 - 2016-01-18 23:18:59 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
DmitryEKT wrote:
Luna Bowman wrote:
Even as a newbie, i see a problem. The problem is called insta-alts. Be it gank, market, mining, anything. CCP, any stance on how this impacts the game ?

doesn't affect it in any way, because character bazaar already exists.



Ye. Now a new character can put a bazaar toon into the SP meat grinder and keep his old/new/preferred name/character. They will be bought for this very purpose now, and sold for parts. Gruesome and funny, in a very Eve way.

I am fine with this system, as it does not introduce or inject SP into the system. It rewards new players most and immediately puts to rest the argument of never being able to catch up or being forever less effective than the other guy 'that's been here longer'. It shifts SP from one place to another with diminishing returns. I can't see a way it can be gamed.

Well done, sirs. It has come at a vital time when we will be receiving many new players because of Valkyrie on the Oculus Rift.

Is having an Eveonline subscription a prerequisite for playing Valkyrie on Occulus Rift?

You can't see how this system can be gamed?
1 account, 3 character slots - 3 X 50 mil SP characters specialized to suit your needs (even 3 X 80 mil SP chars is possible if you have the isk - Or $'s) - Never need to train again and can potentially fly everything from a T2 frigate to a Titan.
Prospect sort of detracts from having 1 high skilled char, why would you bother when lower skilled specialized characters can be so easily created.



What happens to dual character training certificates now? Do they have their (Aurum) price reduced substantially to be viable alongside TSP's - Or will you need to pay for dual character training as well as TSP's if it is a second character on the same account you want to train?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2016-01-18 23:19:57 UTC
jason hill wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
jason hill wrote:
yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?

its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo
Not sure this argument even holds fully true with the number of skills that have changed function or prerequisites that have shifted.
well actually it does ... the learning skills as an example .....but we got recompensed for those particular ones .
Actually they don't since as you said, they were refunded. They are no longer a choice made under now irrelevant information. They are a choice that was removed, as opposed to those that remain, but were changed in some way.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#360 - 2016-01-18 23:21:31 UTC
Man we need a salt lick in this thread. The tears...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.