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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#4041 - 2016-01-18 22:20:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You managed to be wrong is every single thing you just said. If ganking is super easy why is it so rare and done by so few groups? If null sec space is so risk free why do the number of ships killed dwarf highsec by millions?


Take an average Saturday when numbers on are fairly high. Uedama alone almost certainly sees more isk value destroyed by ganks than any given region of sov sees in ratting losses.

Entry barrier for most people to get in on a freighter kill? X for fleet, be given a catalyst, browse the internet until the order is given, receive bacon.....er kill mail. Two or three people just tipping over exhumers in high works more or less the same way: entry barrier, cost, fuss, is practically non existent, and targets are plentiful, naive, and concentrated.

A casual perusing of freighter kills will show a preponderance of pilots from bored null alliances. Why try to hunt in null when freighters will auto-pilot right into you, rather than docking up the moment you get within 10 jumps?

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#4042 - 2016-01-18 22:22:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Please name a mass barge gank event in the recent past.
Gevlon, is that you?
So now it' shifted so the existence of ganking is solely based on whether or not barges are mass ganked, regardless of the mass freighter ganking events? Considering the last interdiction failed it's economic goal while smashing it's barge ganking goal it would seem the reason for a lack of barge ganking events is that more profit can be made ganking freighters.

baltec1 wrote:
"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish."

CCP Rise in response to someone saying what you just did.
Yes, I'm fully aware of what Rise said. But that doesn't mean that ganking = retention. for someone to get into social activity they have to be in the game long enough to actually find people to play with. When a newbie joins with no friends, grinds up for a few days then gets ganked and insulted in local, I just can't see them sticking around.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4043 - 2016-01-18 22:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
King Aires wrote:
You can make up whatever numbers you want.

Ah, so that's your problem. You think that official statistics, collected by CCP's economics team, are “made up”.
Or are you saying that the API-collected numbers — ones that I seem to recall some CCP dev claimed were as close to be fully comprehensive as to not make any difference — are made up? You know, the numbers you offered as “proof” for something you hoped to be the case?

Quote:
But I know for damn sure these 2015 are complete BS.
So why did you use them to try to support your stance?

Quote:
Not only that, but where are you even getting your information from? Credible source or you are a liar.
From you.

Quote:
And again, what in the hell does any of this ganking nonsense have to do with this thread?
Some people try to suggest some perceived (but unproved… in fact, largely disproven) epidemic of ganking as a cause for a decrease in the number of players.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#4044 - 2016-01-18 22:25:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
sperg
Shhh now Tippia. I'm not dealing with trolls. As for your "stats", good job. Only barges count as ganks apparently, this I was not aware of.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#4045 - 2016-01-18 22:30:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
What's my agenda?
You know, after several years of on/off interaction with you in your natural habitat, I still can't figure it out. I would tentatively say that your goal is to stand ontop a mountain of correctness, being stimulated by a few dozen other posters on their respective mountains of correctness, all the while reinforcing your superiority by looking down on poorer posters... but then again, I also have the hypothesis that you're Swedish, which makes you sort of like the Ultimate Answer and Ultimate Question colliding: Each time one might know your agenda, it changes into something weirder (At least, that's what I figured from Nyboder, Copenhagen and Malmö).

But despite your alleged Swedishness, Tippia, if I'm going to be anybodys alt, I'll aspire to be yours. Damn I love what you did to those numbers. There's nothing like taking someones "source" and show how, if anything, it tends towards the exact opposite of what they wanted.
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4046 - 2016-01-18 22:34:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
King Aires wrote:
You can make up whatever numbers you want.

Ah, so that's your problem. You think that official statistics, collected by CCP's economics team, are “made up”.
Or are you saying that the API-collected numbers — ones that I seem to recall some CCP dev claimed were as close to be fully comprehensive as to not make any difference — are made up? You know, the numbers you offered as “proof” for something you hoped to be the case?

Quote:
But I know for damn sure these 2015 are complete BS.
So why did you use them to try to support your stance?

Quote:
Not only that, but where are you even getting your information from? Credible source or you are a liar.
From you.

Quote:
And again, what in the hell does any of this ganking nonsense have to do with this thread?
Some people try to suggest some perceived (but unproved… in fact, largely disproven) epidemic of ganking as a cause for a decrease in the number of players.



Link to source. Go ahead
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4047 - 2016-01-18 22:35:46 UTC
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#4048 - 2016-01-18 22:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
King Aires wrote:
Tippia wrote:

[code]            Q1 2008   2015 (worst month)
Procurer     17        49.0
Retriever   115.8       6.8
Covetor      30.0       1.3
       ∑    162.8      57.1           — 2.85:1

Skiff         2.5      24.6
Mackinaw     28.5       3.1
Hulk         67.3       1.7
       ∑     98.3      29.4           — 3.34:1[/code



You can make up whatever numbers you want. And you might very well be right about 2012 killboards missing things. But I know for damn sure these 2015 are complete BS.

Can you explain what is wrong about the 2015 figures?

I just double checked them and they look correct as presented, based on the data you linked.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#4049 - 2016-01-18 22:42:18 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:

Can you explain what is wrong about the 2015 figures?


They don't match what he wants to believe lol.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4050 - 2016-01-18 22:45:32 UTC
Armand Razor wrote:
Rennbootlenker Waldemar wrote:
I do to player characters what I want, as long as it fits the rules of the game. It's a game after all. I wouldn't go into a round of cards if I weren't willing to screw over my fellow players either - it's the point of most card games after all.

Eve is a competitive game, so you either learn how to play it, or you lose. This has nothing to do with how I act in real life. I like to think I am a fairly decent, upstanding and honest person. But if I play a game where I can burn other players meeples, I might do just that. Everyone else has the option not to play with me, and I won't force anyone.


And because Eve allows this burning in a too extreme way, this is why Eve now is losing players.

Like me that where willing to deal with all of this as long as there was no real alternative and this issue (<- personal opinion about it, doesnt have to be an issue for u) is not fixed.

Now there are alternatives and Eve lost its uniquees. I dont see it reaching the end of the 2nd Decade. I want to play in the Eve Universe. i just do no longer want to play in the current incarnation of the Eve Game.


To be fair, I'm only playing EVE because I am waiting on my new PC to play Star Citizen. And also more content in SC which their development pace has been extraordinary with Alpha 2.1.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#4051 - 2016-01-18 22:45:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:

Can you explain what is wrong about the 2015 figures?


They don't match what he wants to believe lol.

Maybe he just didn't notice the text preceding the table, but it's the data he linked.

So if Tippia is lying because the source of the data is not credible, then ahhhh, oops.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#4052 - 2016-01-18 22:47:59 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Tippia wrote:
What's my agenda?
You know, after several years of on/off interaction with you in your natural habitat, I still can't figure it out. I would tentatively say that your goal is to stand ontop a mountain of correctness, being stimulated by a few dozen other posters on their respective mountains of correctness, all the while reinforcing your superiority by looking down on poorer posters... but then again, I also have the hypothesis that you're Swedish, which makes you sort of like the Ultimate Answer and Ultimate Question colliding: Each time one might know your agenda, it changes into something weirder (At least, that's what I figured from Nyboder, Copenhagen and Malmö).

But despite your alleged Swedishness, Tippia, if I'm going to be anybodys alt, I'll aspire to be yours. Damn I love what you did to those numbers. There's nothing like taking someones "source" and show how, if anything, it tends towards the exact opposite of what they wanted.


Tip believes in the raw provable truth and little else, that's why I admire him. People like that will always clash with emotion based thinkers.

Your post seems rather snarky about people who desire to be correct about what they believe. I can say I will never understand that sentiment, because it suggests that it's ok to be probably wrong about things.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#4053 - 2016-01-18 22:50:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
But again, that's not evidence that EVE was at it's most violent then. That's simply you saying a lot of miners died, which they did, but no more than die in any other ganking event these days in a shorter period of time.



Please name a mass barge gank event in the recent past.

Lucas Kell wrote:

Also, while I haven't claimed that violence in eve causes a loss of subs, I'd certainly say there's anecdotal evidence that suggests some new players that get ganked, particularly ones that join with no friends already in game dislike the experience and it puts them off.


"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish."

CCP Rise in response to someone saying what you just did.



[/quote]

Man I remember when that came out. It was like flipping the light on in a nasty hotel bathroom, cockroaches skittering away everywhere, squeaking that this meant the opposite of what it clearly said, black was white, down was up and CCP better nerf ganking tomorrow if they want to save EVE.


"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#4054 - 2016-01-18 22:54:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish."

CCP Rise in response to someone saying what you just did.



Nothing and I mean nothing elicits the backfire effect more than the words you posted here Big smile
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4055 - 2016-01-18 22:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Malcanis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
But again, that's not evidence that EVE was at it's most violent then. That's simply you saying a lot of miners died, which they did, but no more than die in any other ganking event these days in a shorter period of time.



Please name a mass barge gank event in the recent past.

Lucas Kell wrote:

Also, while I haven't claimed that violence in eve causes a loss of subs, I'd certainly say there's anecdotal evidence that suggests some new players that get ganked, particularly ones that join with no friends already in game dislike the experience and it puts them off.


"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish."

CCP Rise in response to someone saying what you just did.




Man I remember when that came out. It was like flipping the light on in a nasty hotel bathroom, cockroaches skittering away everywhere, squeaking that this meant the opposite of what it clearly said, black was white, down was up and CCP better nerf ganking tomorrow if they want to save EVE.


Changes to mining barge EHP seems to have done wonders to those 50 man Skiff fleets sucking up ice belts.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4056 - 2016-01-18 22:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Malcanis wrote:
[Man I remember when that came out. It was like flipping the light on in a nasty hotel bathroom, cockroaches skittering away everywhere, squeaking that this meant the opposite of what it clearly said, black was white, down was up and CCP better nerf ganking tomorrow if they want to save EVE.

…also drones, since their overpoweredness was obviously making people stick around more than any sane person would expect. P
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4057 - 2016-01-18 22:58:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish."

CCP Rise in response to someone saying what you just did.



Nothing and I mean nothing elicits the backfire effect more than the words you posted here Big smile


I suspect PVP won't be the death of EVE, its the inability to keep up with emerging technologies and competing products that will.

Which is why CCP is betting big on Valkyrie. It will be their World of Tanks.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#4058 - 2016-01-18 23:01:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Man I remember when that came out. It was like flipping the light on in a nasty hotel bathroom, cockroaches skittering away everywhere, squeaking that this meant the opposite of what it clearly said, black was white, down was up and CCP better nerf ganking tomorrow if they want to save EVE.




lol, perfect way to put it. The suggestion that ganking was beneficial to EVE burned them like vampires at a tanning salon. But those of us not prejudiced against the practice already knew it, because the gankers (and the scammers and the awoxxers etc) give us a potent enemy with which to resist, and the process of resisting generates pride that keeps us emotionally tied to the game.

'They' do not and cannot understand that when they advocate for more safety they are actually asking for more boredom, less things to be proud of (being a PVEr and making off with the loot when a PVPr tries to stop you is intoxicating) and the real eventual ending of the game.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#4059 - 2016-01-18 23:02:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Tippia wrote:
What's my agenda?
You know, after several years of on/off interaction with you in your natural habitat, I still can't figure it out. I would tentatively say that your goal is to stand ontop a mountain of correctness, being stimulated by a few dozen other posters on their respective mountains of correctness, all the while reinforcing your superiority by looking down on poorer posters... but then again, I also have the hypothesis that you're Swedish, which makes you sort of like the Ultimate Answer and Ultimate Question colliding: Each time one might know your agenda, it changes into something weirder (At least, that's what I figured from Nyboder, Copenhagen and Malmö).

But despite your alleged Swedishness, Tippia, if I'm going to be anybodys alt, I'll aspire to be yours. Damn I love what you did to those numbers. There's nothing like taking someones "source" and show how, if anything, it tends towards the exact opposite of what they wanted.


Tip believes in the raw provable truth and little else, that's why I admire him. People like that will always clash with emotion based thinkers.

Your post seems rather snarky about people who desire to be correct about what they believe. I can say I will never understand that sentiment, because it suggests that it's ok to be probably wrong about things.
Then you misunderstand me. It's admiration, just my own brand - which, because I'm a sarcastic curmudgeon, might be kinda snarky. Still, it's honest praise.
Even if Tippia is Swedish (And based in part on the lack of rebuttal, I think that is plausible), they've managed to be a great force for rational thought and sourcing arguments. If nothing else, it's almost always a pleasure to read their posts. Coming from a Dane, I think Tippia knows how high praise that is. P
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#4060 - 2016-01-18 23:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Captain Tardbar wrote:


I suspect PVP won't be the death of EVE, its the inability to keep up with emerging technologies and competing products that will.


This suggests that everyone cares about such things. Not all do, some of us don't care about the next big thing.

And even so, NO ONE is trying to compete with EVE, most of the games people like to call "competition" can't have more than a couple dozen people in the same place at the same time. Last night I played in 2 battles with more than 100 players per side, no tidi. When Elite and SC etc can do that i'll give them a look).

Quote:

Which is why CCP is betting big on Valkyrie. It will be their World of Tanks.


May they get rich with these low attention span MOBA lovers.