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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6381 - 2016-01-15 09:38:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP is all but coming out and saying - We don't care about our existing long term customers - I'm not sure what their reason for such harsh diminishing returns is but you can be sure - They have what sounds like a reasonable explanation.
Having 2 day old characters skill to lvl5's via payment methods is ok - But existing higher SP players using the same feature is fervently discouraged. That is really showing guys and gals who have dedicated years to EveOnline how valued they are as customers.
Has it occurred to you that you're issues figuring out the reason are related to an erroneous assumption of not caring about their veteran customers? I'd put a bill in game on them caring and that actually being the reason, but some people turning their disagreement over the method of trying to protect their vets into an assumption of malice.

The concept at hand isn't difficult, for some the idea of "pure" characters that haven't used TSP will be a thing, as will not wanting TSP'd characters at the top of SP lists. In defense of this some even proposed hard capping SP injection disallowing use of TSP completely.

And while the biggest reason for this IS the preference of new players, consider for a moment that it was done to make the chance of them obtaining them more equal to older players through making older players not want them as much further driving demand.

Beyond that consider that maybe such a skew can prefer non-vets without giving vets the finger since everything that doesn't directly benefit a group isn't an insult to that group or even apathetic to them. Maybe we should think about those vets who don't want 400m+ SP characters to be built efficiently if at all.

Maybe we should get over ourselves and realize that the combined advantages of experience, skill and SP are the gift from CCP that keeps giving and accept it graciously even if we can't run with TSP as fast as our real and in game wallets can carry us.
manasi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6382 - 2016-01-15 20:15:32 UTC
I have been playing this game a Very long time (5-30-2003), many seem to think "oh he has a bazillion SP so he wont mind if we get it faster will they?"

Figure out a way to honor those who have been with you for a long(er) time, If the measurement is no longer SP and becomes something else, not a problem. Change the SP, to allow players to (inject skills) fly ships they really want.

Vets just don't want to be forgotten, they have contributed too. 8)

In the end isn't this about getting people to fly the ships they want to even faster?

You want feedback from a guy play this game for almost 13 years? You have it, do with it what you will.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#6383 - 2016-01-15 20:48:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP is all but coming out and saying - We don't care about our existing long term customers - I'm not sure what their reason for such harsh diminishing returns is but you can be sure - They have what sounds like a reasonable explanation.
Having 2 day old characters skill to lvl5's via payment methods is ok - But existing higher SP players using the same feature is fervently discouraged. That is really showing guys and gals who have dedicated years to EveOnline how valued they are as customers.
Has it occurred to you that you're issues figuring out the reason are related to an erroneous assumption of not caring about their veteran customers? I'd put a bill in game on them caring and that actually being the reason, but some people turning their disagreement over the method of trying to protect their vets into an assumption of malice.

The concept at hand isn't difficult, for some the idea of "pure" characters that haven't used TSP will be a thing, as will not wanting TSP'd characters at the top of SP lists. In defense of this some even proposed hard capping SP injection disallowing use of TSP completely.

And while the biggest reason for this IS the preference of new players, consider for a moment that it was done to make the chance of them obtaining them more equal to older players through making older players not want them as much further driving demand.

Beyond that consider that maybe such a skew can prefer non-vets without giving vets the finger since everything that doesn't directly benefit a group isn't an insult to that group or even apathetic to them. Maybe we should think about those vets who don't want 400m+ SP characters to be built efficiently if at all.

Maybe we should get over ourselves and realize that the combined advantages of experience, skill and SP are the gift from CCP that keeps giving and accept it graciously even if we can't run with TSP as fast as our real and in game wallets can carry us.
Who's making assumptions? You don't think existing players will use this to create characters with specific skills simply to by pass "time"?
Another reason TSP should never be available;
An existing player with a 100 mil Sp character can create a max skilled alt for any class of ship (from frigate to titan and everything in between) within minutes - Very different to a new character doing the same, these guys know the game mechanics and can use those purchased skills efficiently. Advantage who?

Simple answer for your 400 mil SP issue - Limit the amount of TSP's a player with over 50 mil sp (or whatever number you choose) can use, say 4 per year (2 mil SP), to help finish off that desired lvl 5 skill. Simple really. Possibly too simple.
The way diminishing returns are it feels like CCP is saying, Screw you, you don't deserve to use this feature.

All that aside, I have my opinion you have yours. Arguing it here achieves nothing but to keep me from actually playing the game.
I'm done..

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6384 - 2016-01-15 21:28:47 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Who's making assumptions? You don't think existing players will use this to create characters with specific skills simply to by pass "time"?
Another reason TSP should never be available;
An existing player with a 100 mil Sp character can create a max skilled alt for any class of ship (from frigate to titan and everything in between) within minutes - Very different to a new character doing the same, these guys know the game mechanics and can use those purchased skills efficiently. Advantage who?
Wait, hold on. Back up for a sec. Did you just pivot from "CCP is all but coming out and saying - We don't care about our existing long term customers" to "You don't think existing players will use this to create characters with specific skills simply to by pass "time"?"

So essentially what we're seeing is that you'll argue whatever makes TSP look bad without an ounce of consistency. A system that allows older players to create tailored alts at will is CCPs way of saying they don't care about those players?

To be honest the point you bring up is a significant concern, but one ultimately capped by the fact that a) creating alts doesn't increase the capacity to fly those characters simultaneously and b) unless we see a large jump in multi-account holding we're also not going to see players doing it to "pass time" regularly due just to not having the slots to make it regular.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
Simple answer for your 400 mil SP issue - Limit the amount of TSP's a player with over 50 mil sp (or whatever number you choose) can use, say 4 per year (2 mil SP), to help finish off that desired lvl 5 skill. Simple really. Possibly too simple.
The way diminishing returns are it feels like CCP is saying, Screw you, you don't deserve to use this feature.

All that aside, I have my opinion you have yours. Arguing it here achieves nothing but to keep me from actually playing the game.
I'm done..
Complains about the system preferring new players and says it's proof they don't care about older players.

Suggests an even greater hard restriction on use.

Yeah, I'm sticking with my initial conclusion because the only key difference between your idea and theirs is that you came up with yours, while they came up with theirs.

As a side question, why would you let this conversation keep you from playing?
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
#6385 - 2016-01-16 11:59:51 UTC
Just wanted to add my .02 ISK and say that I think the SP trading proposal sounds great and I would love to see it implemented yesterday already!

sp trading is the best thing since sliced bittervet
Sentenced 1989
#6386 - 2016-01-16 17:16:57 UTC
So, is there any concrete timeframe for this?

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
Max Kurtis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6387 - 2016-01-17 08:42:30 UTC
Start eve 2 weeks before and I vote for ! plz add this feature in the game and I will continue my subscription... witheout no ...
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
#6388 - 2016-01-17 10:12:12 UTC
I hope it's on track. For us newish players it would be such an awesome feature to be able to catch up a little without resorting to the character bazaar.

sp trading is the best thing since sliced bittervet
Jenshae Chiroptera
#6389 - 2016-01-18 00:00:23 UTC
1) Train alt to PVP / other purpose.
2) Play purpose alt and make ISK
3) Stop training purpose alt
4) Train another main character with +5 implants and skill maps.

This skill injection thing will widen the gap. Those with ISK can generate their perfect alts instead of buying what is available on the bizarre with their faults and histories.

This thread could have done with a poll.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
#6390 - 2016-01-18 00:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Erotisk Folkdans
Why would I care if people get "perfect" alts? Good for them. If that is what they want in their ocd world.

Newish players would be able to train the skills they feel is needed to be competitive in one or a few fields they enjoy, in a more reasonable time frame. It's awesome.

I'm sure there are adjustments to be made to the proposal in the dev blog, but the general idea is great.

A poll in the forums would be useless. Most people in these forums don't seem to care about what is good for the game long term.

A poll that was mailed out to all players, including those who quit, would perhaps be useful.

sp trading is the best thing since sliced bittervet
Gin Sling
Kids With Guns
#6391 - 2016-01-18 16:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Gin Sling
Is it possible to hang in Jita atm?

Lieing cockroaches.

Gin o7
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6392 - 2016-01-18 17:08:55 UTC
This will just make it more difficult for those who don't have or don't want to spend a lot of RL money to play Eve. I've played and still play a few pay to win (P2W) games but can't compete since it's not uncommon for people to drop 10,000 USD on some of these games. I've seen people spend over ten times that.

Just from a purely business perspective CCP should consider if profits from those who spend a bunch of RL money will be more than the many that leave the game because they can't. Also will that group stay longer or just get bored and stop playing. It may be that financially it makes more sense to adopt a P2W model.

I won't say I'll stop playing Eve just because it becomes P2W but I will cut back because I don't invest too much in those games as a rule. Again that's just me and others may be more welcoming of the change,
J0rj Lmoz
Rawbot.
#6393 - 2016-01-18 18:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: J0rj Lmoz
Is it going to have, a limit to the number of times we can inject/extract skill points per time ?

Or an alliance/players with unlimited resources now is going to be able to make all his alts fly Titans in one month ?

With a limited number of injection/extraction of skills per time, will make this a good thing, without that CCP is taking away the rewards of time dedication to the Game, and making Eve a even more P2W without any rewards for being playing the game for more than one year.
Gaufres
Just Keep Hanging On
#6394 - 2016-01-18 18:46:19 UTC
I do not like to threaten, but I think CCP is making a serious mistake with this. I am going to see how it goes, but I am seriously thinking about canceling my account and giving all my stuff to my corpmates. This game is and has been taking some seriously bad turns for a while now. I do not really know who they thing they are "helping" with this, but I see it as a huge hit to the older players.
Jayden Thomas
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#6395 - 2016-01-18 19:07:56 UTC
Devs are no longer the bright sparks of the CCP think tank. They are now the shady, fund raising Aurum salesman of Hilmar Veigar Pétursson. "Quick, more ship skins!"

It's not a sandbox if people can correct their mistakes. "Buy our plex! Fix those bad training decisions!"
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6396 - 2016-01-18 21:25:09 UTC
IIshira wrote:
This will just make it more difficult for those who don't have or don't want to spend a lot of RL money to play Eve.
How?

Jayden Thomas wrote:
It's not a sandbox if people can correct their mistakes.
I'm not sure sandbox means what you think it means.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6397 - 2016-01-18 21:38:31 UTC
Given that it is no longer in the 'explore' phase and into the 'gonna happen' I suggest this thread close and we shift to https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6283770#post6283770 instead

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Josef Djugashvilis
#6398 - 2016-01-18 22:21:41 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Given that it is no longer in the 'explore' phase and into the 'gonna happen' I suggest this thread close and we shift to https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6283770#post6283770 instead

m


Sad that it is going to happen, but inevitable given that CCP simply want (need) more of our money.

The bit that sticks in my craw is the pretence that it is for the benefit of 'new' players to enable them to close the skills gap.

A money grab is a money grab, however it is presented.

This is not a signature.
Sergeant L
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6399 - 2016-01-18 23:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant L
CCP,
How about a counter proposal to help EVE continue and let lower player get rewarded for their play time. I think its time before we loose more new players to continue the system in place with passive training but start a new phase for exp. That's right I am talking about all of those players that put allot of time into playing. Time for some rewards and fighting for exp. CCP how about this: Just like you did with the blood raiders expansion which was cool, a way to speed up training. Lets face it the whole player base went wild! So, lets spice it up. Drop the following loot from killing the NPC's and sleepers in a small box container with SP to put wherever you want just right click and it becomes free skill points or sell it on the market in some given CCP determined block increments but drop the following in the loot for PVE: Frig: 1 sp, Cruiser: 3 sp, BS 5 sp, bigger ship 10 sp. PVP frig kill (5) (noob ships don't count) Cruiser (15sp), BS (25), Cap (100) and Titan (1000). Of course none of these are automatic either and drop with the loot of the killed enemy. Time for some wonderful scrapping over wrecks and loots. You saw what blood raiders did, imagine the rush on this! Can we say fighting and of course for CCP Plex as people sell and buy like mad to get ahead! Please stop using the excuse of old players get squeezed and will quit. They need to grow up, we need new blood for EVE to continue! Cheers!
Ein Herje
Indirect approach
Fraternity Auxiliary
#6400 - 2016-01-19 04:14:24 UTC
Yes I can understand to a certain extent where CCP is coming from with this, it will be awsome to get more players into the game, but don't you also think that there should be a cap so that older players don't feel like it's all been a waste for them, subscribing all this time getting all those skills up there?

Say something like 60-80 mill skillpoints you can make an awsome whatever pilot with that. (I think)
I don't care about the finance, I want CCP to earn money I have nothing against that, but let it still be
something special to have accumulated 100 of millions of skillpoints.
The old players have carried the game this far by keeping their subs active you know.
And the new brave eve pilots as well of course. (I am not referring to any entities ingame.)

But yes pay to win is always bad for any game.
Someone at CCP should just figure out how much skills it takes to get dreads or carriers skills to lvl 4
everything included reps cap transfer and siege/triage and cap it right there.Also do the same for the
industry aspect of the game try to find somewhere lvl 4 something something industry wise add it together
divide by two and theres your cap.

Well I know that there are many aspects of eve that I have not included it's an awsome game with lots of possibilities.
I read some of the forums and people who welcome this say that ah yes and still you can always go to the character bazaar and get a 200 + mill char instantly. I doubt it that someone who started playing eve yesterday has 150+ billion to buy these high skillpoints chars.

I welcome it with open arms if there would be implemented a cap for it.