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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#61 - 2016-01-18 16:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Obil Que wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct.

Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome.


Current:

Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character.

Future:

Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting.

Future Tommy seems to have better options...

Some people don't like the idea of Tommy joining, if Tommy will become a bad person in eve online

EDIT: That said though, Tommy might have pretty quickly skilled up and then gotten on mach killmails with their t1 frigate using a tracking disruptor. or a logi legion with a sensor damp.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2016-01-18 16:30:48 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct.

Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome.


Current:

Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character.

Future:

Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting.

Future Tommy seems to have better options...


That's exactly how drug pushers work, 'Tell you what I'll do I'll make the first one free, when you want some more just come back to me...'
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#63 - 2016-01-18 16:32:20 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Obil Que wrote:

Current:

Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character.

Future:

Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting.

Future Tommy seems to have better options...


That's exactly how drug pushers work, 'Tell you what I'll do I'll make the first one free, when you want some more just come back to me...'

Is this what it comes down to, making our newbies dependent on our space state?

Oh so you're saving them huh. I see...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
ViolentDesire
78934223
#64 - 2016-01-18 16:32:27 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct.

Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome.


Current:

Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character.

Future:

Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting.

Future Tommy seems to have better options...


While this part of the discussion is definitely over, the fact that they introduce more skills with new ships goes against what they supposedly want to accomplish. If there is too much to train, the first thing to do would be to not add more. They are creating the problem they want to solve.
Sorgia
Vrix Nation
#65 - 2016-01-18 16:32:45 UTC
ViolentDesire wrote:
Quote:
We weren’t sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that you’re also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters.


Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.

Ignoring the massive hypocrisy over the years that skillpoints don't matter, there were/are many ways to push the game in a direction where not everything would be governed by a skill. But naturally, such a "solution" would mean CCP couldn't "double dip", so that was apparently uninteresting. What was interesting was pay to keep up.

This has nothing to do with new players. This is only about money. The core of Eve is now irrelevant and there is no value in anything.

This is an unbelievably dumb change and an absolute demonstration that players' opinions are completely ignored. CSM as a concept can't even be considered a joke. Who the **** would believe you listen anything at all after this?


csm always been a joke, its yust pr wich they dont listen too

they also like to lie about whatever suits them , they wanted this so here it is
ViolentDesire
78934223
#66 - 2016-01-18 16:33:33 UTC
Querns wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:

Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.

The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless.


I guess you were in the minority that thought this was a good idea.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#67 - 2016-01-18 16:35:06 UTC
As for the idea itself I remain completely neutral. I'll have no need to use any of it and I have nothing I want to part with for isk.

What I will react to is this eternally naïve notion that it 'might bring in new players'. All it will do is help veterans who actually know WTF they are doing, and it will make it even harder for new players (especially ones not willing to pay a sub AND then more money for plex or whatever) to get a foot in the door.

You bring in new players with a challenging game where innovative people can innovate, not by allowing people to feel like they can play catch up for cash. Especially when they can't.
B0RG 0VERLORD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2016-01-18 16:35:09 UTC
gratz ccp on another fail idea.

Does CCP mean crap coding people
Sim Cognito
Obani Gemini Corporation
#69 - 2016-01-18 16:35:16 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct.

Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome.


Current:

Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character.

Future:

Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting.

Future Tommy seems to have better options...


Precisely.
Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2016-01-18 16:36:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrink Collie
Querns wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:

Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.

The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless.


Feels good though Smile

I'm pretty kin about this new chapter in EVE. I don't really understand the whole "it will hurt/kill the newbro" perspective. For some reason that view point comes up every time, no matter how much or little it affects that particular segment. One thing I would like; however, is perhaps having the ability to see how many skill points a particular character has. It would be disheartening for an actual newbro to get into a duel with someone around the same toon age, but they have 20m+ for skillpoints. Smile
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#71 - 2016-01-18 16:36:45 UTC
I guess the actual real problem is some players might be generous to the newer ones.

It's like how having friends leads to a blue donut leading to eve dying.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2016-01-18 16:36:57 UTC
I hope the AUR price is set more towards the low-end than the high end. I certainly won't be paying for 500k SP only to get 150k but if they price it witih the newbros getting a discount then I'd be all for it :)
King Dave
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#73 - 2016-01-18 16:37:45 UTC
Ccp - I can appreciate the thought and generally agree. I have a friend that just started and I know he will be buying a ton to catch up on the basics and long trains but wants his own main not something bought in character bazaar. Thumbs up.

As a very high sp character I think you are missing the mark horribly on people like me. I don't want to add more skills to my toon but rearrange the stuff I have. The cost benefit and lost potential usage of extracted skills for whatever reason in the future means I would never be extracting from myself. I would however pay a higher aurum price for a self extractor/injector. It's not tradable (call it genetically coded). You even give it a slight diminished return, but the point is that it resculpts the points of self. Otherwise if I want to get rid of 5 mil in leadership stuff to basically get 1.5 mil in something else plus the cost of a ton of aurum just doesn't make any sense, especially given than game is ever changing and you could tie some leadership skill to a ship, (command Desi anyone?)

Basically you have given this ability to anyone under 30m sp (forgot break) but totally hosed people that have been playing longest and are even more attached to character, with also the most legitimate number of skill points that need shuffling from all the trends over the years.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#74 - 2016-01-18 16:39:23 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct.

Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome.


Current:

Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character.

Future:

Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting.

Future Tommy seems to have better options...


Current: "Hey Tommy, you can't fly a HAC yet, but here is an alternative tech1 ship with tech1 items you can fly and still come along, and when you CAN fly that HAC, you will have a sense of accomplishment from the time you put in as well as how you had to learn which skills to train.

Future: "Who is Tommy? Oh yea, that guy we gave some skills to that got bored within a week because everything was handed to him, thus preventing him from developing any sense of accomplishment or ownership in the game. I heard he's playing World of Warships now".


Some people (including some at CCP) don't really understand the draw of this game, now do they?
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#75 - 2016-01-18 16:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
CCP Cognac wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Can a player remove skill points from any skill?

For example, I have Caldari Carrier to level 5. But the prerequisite is Battleship level 5, can I remove my Battleship skills and still be able to fly a Carrier?

Also, if I remove skill points from...lets say Gallente Frigate, so there's 0 SP there, can I remove the skill? If so, do I get the skillbook back?


Prereq skills can not be extracted. The will be represented with a lock icon like you can see on this picture.

[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68915/1/Skill_trading_training.png[/img]

as soon as the advanced skills have been extracted the former prereq skill will be open for extraction.

As of now there are no plans to remove skill books when extraction takes you to 0.

This will mean that we will need to do some changes to skill training which will hopefully also allow you to inject skill books you don't have the prereqs instead of having to haul them around waiting for that prereq to finish(no promises this will be available on realease).

So, let's pretend I'm a sub 5 Million SP character. I've managed /somehow/ to get Caldari Carrier 1, now I have no SP in Caldari Carrier. I can remove the SP from my Caldari Battleship so that's 0 SP and apply the whole 500,000 SP to Caldari Carrier? Thus negating the prerequisite skills needed to fly a Carrier. Therefore having a low SP character focused for one thing.

In this case, I should have to remove the Caldari Carrier skill BEFORE I can remove the Caldari Battleship SP.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#76 - 2016-01-18 16:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
King Dave wrote:
As a very high sp character I think you are missing the mark horribly on people like me. I don't want to add more skills to my toon but rearrange the stuff I have. The cost benefit and lost potential usage of extracted skills for whatever reason in the future means I would never be extracting from myself. I would however pay a higher aurum price for a self extractor/injector. It's not tradable (call it genetically coded). You even give it a slight diminished return, but the point is that it resculpts the points of self. Otherwise if I want to get rid of 5 mil in leadership stuff to basically get 1.5 mil in something else plus the cost of a ton of aurum just doesn't make any sense, especially given than game is ever changing and you could tie some leadership skill to a ship, (command Desi anyone?)

Honestly a self-restricted "skill rearranger" (which you can buy and trade, but only when empty, and can only use on the character that extracts sp to it) would be nice.

You could make it so when you use the "skill rearranger" you fill up your 500k, but instead of giving you a filled extractor, it gives that character the (450k?) SP. No ability to transfer SP to another character.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2016-01-18 16:43:20 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Obil Que wrote:

...

Future Tommy seems to have better options...


That's exactly how drug pushers work, 'Tell you what I'll do I'll make the first one free, when you want some more just come back to me...'

Is this what it comes down to, making our newbies dependent on our space state?

Oh so you're saving them huh. I see...


I'm saving no-one, I left my cape and speedos in hisec.

This just strikes me as a means to extract money from new players (whilst inflating PLEX prices meaning more players will have to pay for game time more often). New players will not have the ISK to buy these injectors without paying more RL cash. The knock on effect will impact everyone. I would also be greatly surprised if the larger entities in game didn't use this to create swathes of perfect alts at sub-50 mil SP giving them an even bigger advantage over new starters.

This change won't impact me play wise as I already have the skills I need to do what I want in game. It may impact me in ISK terms but I'll live :) Had I been starting as a new player it still wouldn't impact me as I have patience, this scheme will be trading on the fact that many new players won't have or will feel the pressure to skill faster and therefore pay to do so.
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#78 - 2016-01-18 16:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Morihei Akachi
Really sorry to see this implemented. In my view it runs counter to everything Eve is about.

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)
The Slayer
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2016-01-18 16:44:48 UTC  |  Edited by: The Slayer
So, some math.

500,000sp is around 12 days of training at 1700sp/hr (very conservative)

Currently a 30 day sub will cost you £10

Currently you can buy around 2200 aurum for this price (you cannot buy exactly £10 of aurum, but approximating from the 1800 for £8 bundle)

Ergo I would hope extractor pricing to be somewhere around 1k aurum.
Aerious
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#80 - 2016-01-18 16:45:50 UTC
What a waste of time and resources.

What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP?

"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."